The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 800 Old 07-12-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

It's impossible to notice 10 or 20ms of lag, isn't it?

Well, don't forget, it all adds up. There is input lag on the wireless controller to most of the current consoles of a few milliseconds. Then there's the lag of when you hit a button on the controller to when the frame associated with that press of the button is generated at the console, which can be anywhere from about 30 to about 100 milliseconds (it tends to be much less on a good PC though). Then there's the input lag of your TV (which are listed in this thread). They can all add up to being noticeable.

Then there's also the situation where you see an enemy in a game, you aim at him, you pull the trigger, and then you die without shooting. You sit there, dead, thinking "man, I swear I pulled the trigger before he shot me!" In a situation like that, you might notice even very low input lag.

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post #122 of 800 Old 07-12-2010, 10:03 AM
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So is that why that happens? Input lag? Cause I hate that sh1t lol
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post #123 of 800 Old 07-12-2010, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

So is that why that happens? Input lag? Cause I hate that sh1t lol

Mostly from internet lag, but input lag adds to it because it effectively slows your reaction times.

And it isn't really input lag, it's just video delay. The guy has already come around the corner you just haven't seen him yet. And when you do see him and pull the trigger, you DO shoot, it just takes a second for you to see yourself doing so.
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post #124 of 800 Old 07-12-2010, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddix View Post

Mostly from internet lag, but input lag adds to it because it effectively slows your reaction times.

And it isn't really input lag, it's just video delay. The guy has already come around the corner you just haven't seen him yet. And when you do see him and pull the trigger, you DO shoot, it just takes a second for you to see yourself doing so.

And that right there is why input lag is so important to me.
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post #125 of 800 Old 07-12-2010, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaddix View Post

Mostly from internet lag, but input lag adds to it because it effectively slows your reaction times.

And it isn't really input lag, it's just video delay. The guy has already come around the corner you just haven't seen him yet. And when you do see him and pull the trigger, you DO shoot, it just takes a second for you to see yourself doing so.

Well... in the scenario I mentioned, by the time you pull the trigger, you're already dead. You just haven't seen that frame yet. Had there been no input lag, you would have reacted while still alive.

Just a note on this, in my experience, 20ms isn't instantly noticeable. It's just that by the end of playing for about 2 hours, you notice that maybe 3 or 4 times over the course of the night, you could'a swore you shot that guy, but you died anyway. Then you begin to realize it was because of input lag.

Note that internet lag is usually a lot worse than input lag (and does look different... internet lag usually appears as your gun actually shooting, and then the other guy shoots you an instant later, but since he has a better connection to the host, his shot is registered first, making it so you die, while he remains unharmed), so these comments mostly apply to single player.

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post #126 of 800 Old 07-13-2010, 02:09 AM
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Finally got around to properly test my TV with SMTT:

Panasonic TX-P42S20E

Min lag: 18ms
Max lag: 30ms
Avg. lag: 23,02ms (out of 41 pictures)
LL
LL
LL
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post #127 of 800 Old 07-13-2010, 06:52 AM
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Nice looking numbers.
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post #128 of 800 Old 07-13-2010, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks AABB, added to OP.
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post #129 of 800 Old 07-13-2010, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

Finally got around to properly test my TV with SMTT:

Panasonic TX-P42S20E

Min lag: 18ms
Max lag: 30ms
Avg. lag: 23,02ms (out of 41 pictures)

That's a good test. About 1 frame of variability is expected , because plasma displays refresh all at once, while CRTs and LCDs refresh top to bottom. Within a single refresh, the plasma will vary in lag by about 16ms.

That also means that ALL the tests should vary by ~16ms. I think any results that don't include a ~16ms range shouldn't be accepted for the first post of this thread. Laptop displays and flash timers are also unreliable.


The TX-P42S20E tested here has only one frame of lag beyond the absolute minimum that a plasma display can have.
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post #130 of 800 Old 07-13-2010, 11:34 PM
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Thanks, I've been wondering about this but couldn't find any solid information.
Do you think that 16ms should be deducted from the highest result, or is a CRT faster even though you don't see the full picture before the scan line reaches the bottom?
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post #131 of 800 Old 07-14-2010, 10:45 AM
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CRT is always faster
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post #132 of 800 Old 07-14-2010, 10:47 AM
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You don't see the full picture on the flat panel until the scan line on the CRT reaches the bottom. The image on the CRT is the signal, if it isn't showing on the CRT then the FP doesn't even have it yet.
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post #133 of 800 Old 07-14-2010, 02:09 PM
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I know that a CRT is technically faster, but you don’t see the scan line with the naked eye, you see a full image (with slight flickering). If I understand this correctly, the ~16ms variance is caused by the CRT because it needs 16,7 ms (at 60hz) to fully draw a frame, while the Plasma has to wait for the full frame. In both cases you see a full picture every 16,7ms, so I'm wondering how this affects actual perception.
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post #134 of 800 Old 07-18-2010, 02:39 AM
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I can see that the LG PK550 have high input lag. So here is my question!... Will the nordic version PK550N have same input lag? The Nordic version isn't excactly the same tv, it has 2 THX modes included, so might not be the same or what?...

Thanks for help I can get, cheers!

EDIT: The G25 numbers, are they the same as the G20?
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post #135 of 800 Old 07-18-2010, 03:27 AM
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Here is a very good french website which allows you to compare TVs with test protocols and results in english. Check the choice Input lag in the list, and you'll see that tht VT20 has a worse average on 10 measures than its lag found in the 1st post of this thread. The only problem with their protocol is that they don't seem to test in "game mode" when possible.
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.p...&p2=9114&ph=16
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post #136 of 800 Old 07-21-2010, 05:23 PM
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The Digital Versus results are inaccurate. I don't see how there could be any more than one frame of variance if they did the test correctly.
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post #137 of 800 Old 08-23-2010, 09:44 AM
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Been looking all over the net for some Panny PNxxC680 tests but haven't come across anything.
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post #138 of 800 Old 08-31-2010, 11:04 PM
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I figure I should post the results of some testing I've done with the Panasonic TC-P42U2. I used the timer on lagom.nl's excellent site.

I don't have the pictures on my desktop at the moment, but I took approximately 40 pictures of the TV through HDMI with Game Mode on and with the "Computer" label. I didn't notice a difference in lag with the "Game" and "Computer" labels. I should also note that the TV doesn't have any computer inputs, so I had to use a DVI -> HDMI converter to connect it.

I did a "calibration" by measuring my CRT TV with my LCD monitor to get an average of a 1 frame (~16.667ms) delay on my LCD monitor. The Panny TV averaged around 4 frames (~66.667ms) of delay from my LCD monitor. Unfortunately, that's not good enough for the games I play.

I haven't tested the composite (hah!) or component inputs, due to picture quality and not having any component cables, respectively. However, I've noticed a slight improvement in lag on composite, but again without proper testing I can't confirm that this is actually the case. I won't be keeping this TV, but at least I can give some quick test results while I still have it.
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post #139 of 800 Old 08-31-2010, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dapers View Post

I figure I should post the results of some testing I've done with the Panasonic TC-P42U2. I used the timer on lagom.nl's excellent site.

I don't have the pictures on my desktop at the moment, but I took approximately 40 pictures of the TV through HDMI with Game Mode on and with the "Computer" label. I didn't notice a difference in lag with the "Game" and "Computer" labels. I should also note that the TV doesn't have any computer inputs, so I had to use a DVI -> HDMI converter to connect it.

I did a "calibration" by measuring my CRT TV with my LCD monitor to get an average of a 1 frame (~16.667ms) delay on my LCD monitor. The Panny TV averaged around 4 frames (~66.667ms) of delay from my LCD monitor. Unfortunately, that's not good enough for the games I play.

I haven't tested the composite (hah!) or component inputs, due to picture quality and not having any component cables, respectively. However, I've noticed a slight improvement in lag on composite, but again without proper testing I can't confirm that this is actually the case. I won't be keeping this TV, but at least I can give some quick test results while I still have it.

Did you remember to turn off Aero on your laptop dapers? If so, are you perhaps forcing Vsync in your GPU options or something? You're not passing through a receiver or anything? Those will all definitely mess your results. It seems pretty clear the low range Panasonic's are less than stellar, but you were seeing 66ms not including the laptop panel (so 80+ms all told)? That's quite a bit slower than even the C2.
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post #140 of 800 Old 09-01-2010, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Did you remember to turn off Aero on your laptop dapers? If so, are you perhaps forcing Vsync in your GPU options or something? You're not passing through a receiver or anything? Those will all definitely mess your results. It seems pretty clear the low range Panasonic's are less than stellar, but you were seeing 66ms not including the laptop panel (so 80+ms all told)? That's quite a bit slower than even the C2.

I did turn off Aero, V-sync wasn't forced, and I don't have a receiver to connect with. I ran this on a desktop with a quad-core Phenom processor with a Radeon 4870. Today I ran the test again on my friend's laptop, again with Aero turned off and I got the same results.

In all due honesty, I was shocked and disappointed with the lag. It was pretty noticeable in FPS and platformers. I have Game Mode turned on, and the input labels don't seem to do anything besides change the brightness and color settings. I don't think I'm missing anything else to try and reduce the lag, unless there's some magic with different HDMI ports?
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post #141 of 800 Old 09-01-2010, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dapers View Post

I did turn off Aero, V-sync wasn't forced, and I don't have a receiver to connect with. I ran this on a desktop with a quad-core Phenom processor with a Radeon 4870. Today I ran the test again on my friend's laptop, again with Aero turned off and I got the same results.

In all due honesty, I was shocked and disappointed with the lag. It was pretty noticeable in FPS and platformers. I have Game Mode turned on, and the input labels don't seem to do anything besides change the brightness and color settings. I don't think I'm missing anything else to try and reduce the lag, unless there's some magic with different HDMI ports?

Sounds like a confirmed stinker. Do you have any shots so I can add it to the OP?
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post #142 of 800 Old 09-02-2010, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

Been looking all over the net for some Panny PNxxC680 tests but haven't come across anything.

That would be because there aren't any. No Samsung users have posted any lag tests here, so either the sammies suck for games and no one buys them, or the bastards are too busy playing on their lagless plasmas to come in and tell us how awesome they are

(I'm guessing it's the former)
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post #143 of 800 Old 09-04-2010, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

My Panasonic's game mode is only noticeable when watching a scrolling ticker, when I set it to game mode, the ticker jumps ahead, when i set it to any other mode, the scrolling ticker jumps back a tad.

I have tried to notice on my computer led monitor the game mode, but I can't tell that it really does anything but make the picture look worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

Here's a post from a user who measured 0ms on his V10 - a hopeful sign.

I can't find anywhere else to verify that the V10 has 0ms, and I find it really hard to believe.

Between the 65 V10 and the 2010 TC-P65S2 does anyone know if there is a huge difference in lag numbers? The V10 is around $500 more.
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post #144 of 800 Old 09-04-2010, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BBQ7 View Post

I can't find anywhere else to verify that the V10 has 0ms, and I find it really hard to believe.

Between the 65 V10 and the 2010 TC-P65S2 does anyone know if there is a huge difference in lag numbers? The V10 is around $500 more.

Nah, the V10 definitely doesn't have 0ms. That is a Guitar Hero test you're referring to, it's calibration is entirely manual and ultimately just measures the individuals timing--not the display. The 65V10 is almost definitely the same as either the 65 S1 (if it's a size class thing) or the G10/G15 (see first post for the numbers).
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post #145 of 800 Old 09-04-2010, 01:57 PM
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Interesting that people are saying the LG PDP's have a lot of input lag...all of the reviews I have read, including FLATPANELS HD make specific mention that the PK950 has very low input lag! What gives? Is there a difference between the PK550, PK750 and PK950 in this respect? I have the 60PK950 and so I am indeed curious to know what the input lag is.
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post #146 of 800 Old 09-19-2010, 06:00 PM
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I'm curious to know the input lag of the LG 60PK950 as well, it's one of the only reasons I'm hesitating on buying it.
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post #147 of 800 Old 09-21-2010, 07:56 AM
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Can someone please test out the Samsung PN50C550? Thinking about buying it, but gaming is huge to me so I'd like to see some numbers.
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post #148 of 800 Old 09-22-2010, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxmastermushxx View Post

I'm curious to know the input lag of the LG 60PK950 as well, it's one of the only reasons I'm hesitating on buying it.

I can say with a high degree of certainty that the PK950 does NOT have Input Lag issues or perform poorly in this area. All of the professional reviews, coupled with my own personal experience (like that of all the other PK950 owners) - indicate this T.V performs very well in this capacity. I have been playing COD, Halo Reach and NHL 2011 - all games requiring 'fast-twitch' input performance - and I have noticed no issues.
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post #149 of 800 Old 09-22-2010, 04:51 PM
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LG 60PX950N (60" Scandinavian model) 3D plasma in game mode gives around 50 ms + whatever the inputlag of Samsung P2770H is - I know it's pretty low so I'd say 60-65ms although it may be as high as 70ms. Full post with details is located in the owner's thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...page=2&post#40
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post #150 of 800 Old 09-22-2010, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 0119 View Post

I can say with a high degree of certainty that the PK950 does NOT have Input Lag issues or perform poorly in this area. All of the professional reviews, coupled with my own personal experience (like that of all the other PK950 owners) - indicate this T.V performs very well in this capacity. I have been playing COD, Halo Reach and NHL 2011 - all games requiring 'fast-twitch' input performance - and I have noticed no issues.

Depends on how you define the terms "input lag issues" and "performing poorly".

There are many many people that do NOT know how to notice 50-60ms worth of lag either, which is why we can't trust perception. The TV needs to be tested properly otherwise the information is of little value to us. That's not even mentioning PC gaming vs Console gaming, or multiplayer FPS vs non-FPS since input lag is less noticeable overall on consoles and non-FPS games. Then there's the tendency of people to defend their own purchase, or just hope for the best, but i won't go any further with that.

Personally i bet the PK950 has nearly the same lag as the PK550. The reasons why i think so? For one they are made by the same manufacturer and may even share a lot of the same parts. Two, higher model TV's tend to have more picture enhancements and they aren't always defeatable. But in reality i have no idea which model is better so back to square one we go...
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