The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 800 Old 09-22-2010, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaco View Post

LG 60PX950N (60" Scandinavian model) 3D plasma in game mode gives around 50 ms + whatever the inputlag of Samsung P2770H is - I know it's pretty low so I'd say 60-65ms although it may be as high as 70ms. Full post with details is located in the owner's thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...page=2&post#40

I'm not sure this is the same monitor, but your 2770H could potentially have 20-32ms of lag. Sorry for the double request in the PX thread and here Gaco, I didn't notice it was you who posted the link, thought it was someone else that just dropped it off. Do you have a picture of your test I can add to the OP?
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post #152 of 800 Old 09-23-2010, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I'm not sure this is the same monitor, but your 2770H could potentially have 20-32ms of lag. Sorry for the double request in the PX thread and here Gaco, I didn't notice it was you who posted the link, thought it was someone else that just dropped it off. Do you have a picture of your test I can add to the OP?

No it's not the same, Samsung's HD models (as opposed to my H model) were said to have significantly more input lag. One of the prime reasons I went for the 2770H despite them being priced similar and HD including an TV tuners.

As mentioned in the owners thread, I will post the photos shortly and you can pick a batch you find relevant and repost here or whatever
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post #153 of 800 Old 10-04-2010, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sjetski71 View Post

Depends on how you define the terms "input lag issues" and "performing poorly".

There are many many people that do NOT know how to notice 50-60ms worth of lag either, which is why we can't trust perception. The TV needs to be tested properly otherwise the information is of little value to us. That's not even mentioning PC gaming vs Console gaming, or multiplayer FPS vs non-FPS since input lag is less noticeable overall on consoles and non-FPS games. Then there's the tendency of people to defend their own purchase, or just hope for the best, but i won't go any further with that.

Personally i bet the PK950 has nearly the same lag as the PK550. The reasons why i think so? For one they are made by the same manufacturer and may even share a lot of the same parts. Two, higher model TV's tend to have more picture enhancements and they aren't always defeatable. But in reality i have no idea which model is better so back to square one we go...

Fair enough, however - why in the review on Flatpanels HD does the reviewer make specific mention that the input lag on this t.v is, (and I quote) - "..quite low"? I would like to think this statement was arrived at after specific testing for this parameter was conducted. I have no idea what 'quite low' means in terms of actual metrics, but I suspect based on the context of his statement it seemed to me this was a positive statement regarding the sets performance with input lag. I do agree that most people would want to defend/rationalize their purchase - and admittedly perception does little to really answer a question of milli-seconds, but then can one really notice a difference between 25ms's, and 56ms's??? I mean...really?
Lastly there is the question of components used in the set. As someone who works in the electronics industry at a component level, I can attest to the fact that you are right - and in a lot of instances like-parts are used across similar platforms/lines, but it is not uncommon for electronics makers to use higher-grade components in their flagship products. I am not saying unequivocally that is the case here, but is is possible the electronic architecture that govern core functions differ in some ways.
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post #154 of 800 Old 10-04-2010, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 0119 View Post

but then can one really notice a difference between 25ms's, and 56ms's??? I mean...really?

Unfortunately, yes, but there's more to it than that.

25ms is getting near the threshold for fast twitch type PC gaming where you notice your FPS Kill/death ratios begin taking a nosedive, or where you begin having difficulty pulling complex moves in street fighter type games. And depending on who you ask, 50ms is right on, or just past the threshold i'm speaking of.

What makes it more complicated is that 25ms and 50ms isn't the entire picture, the game play flaws i mention above aren't only suffering because of the display lag numbers we posted, it's because those numbers are being added to the already present internet lag (i may be preaching to the choir but any noobs reading this may need a fuller explanation). And people who aren't using mice with a low polling rate can add another 8ms lag to the above numbers, not much but add it all together and it makes a perceptible difference to those who recognize the signs.

There's ways of improving your multiplayer gaming experience with mediocre speed displays, stick solely to game servers with low ping for example. You can also lower the polling rate of your mouse but you're now hitting the point of diminishing returns and fanatic territory
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post #155 of 800 Old 10-05-2010, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjetski71 View Post

Unfortunately, yes, but there's more to it than that.

25ms is getting near the threshold for fast twitch type PC gaming where you notice your FPS Kill/death ratios begin taking a nosedive, or where you begin having difficulty pulling complex moves in street fighter type games. And depending on who you ask, 50ms is right on, or just past the threshold i'm speaking of.

What makes it more complicated is that 25ms and 50ms isn't the entire picture, the game play flaws i mention above aren't only suffering because of the display lag numbers we posted, it's because those numbers are being added to the already present internet lag (i may be preaching to the choir but any noobs reading this may need a fuller explanation). And people who aren't using mice with a low polling rate can add another 8ms lag to the above numbers, not much but add it all together and it makes a perceptible difference to those who recognize the signs.

There's ways of improving your multiplayer gaming experience with mediocre speed displays, stick solely to game servers with low ping for example. You can also lower the polling rate of your mouse but you're now hitting the point of diminishing returns and fanatic territory

Don't forget that game engines themselves have built in lag as well.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...factor-article

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post #156 of 800 Old 10-05-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 0119 View Post

Fair enough, however - why in the review on Flatpanels HD does the reviewer make specific mention that the input lag on this t.v is, (and I quote) - "..quite low"? I would like to think this statement was arrived at after specific testing for this parameter was conducted.

A qualitative statement like that, to me, just indicates they have no idea what it means to properly test input lag, becuase if they did they'd at least provide their test methodology and solid numbers in terms of game tested and frames/milliseconds of lag.

Quote:


can one really notice a difference between 25ms's, and 56ms's??? I mean...really?.

You'll notice it when you've gotta make a jump in Mega Man 10 that requires you to run to the very last pixel of the platform before jumping only to see the Blue Bomber plummet to his death. It's not all missed headshots and whiffed Hadoukens

And as PENDRAGOON said some games are just coded crappily and take a noticable amount of time to process your input and display the results, but that's equivalent to network latency in that it adds to the overall lag but not something you can affect with your choice of TV.
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post #157 of 800 Old 10-08-2010, 10:47 AM
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I don't have the means to conduct a test myself, I wish someone would report their findings on the PK950, hard to believe no one else has done so as yet!?
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post #158 of 800 Old 10-10-2010, 06:02 AM
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I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a Samsung PN50C550 today but I can't seem to find any input lag numbers. Does anyone here have any experience with this model?
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post #159 of 800 Old 10-10-2010, 09:38 PM
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need more 2010 & 2011 tests!!!!!
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post #160 of 800 Old 10-13-2010, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack612 View Post

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a Samsung PN50C550 today but I can't seem to find any input lag numbers. Does anyone here have any experience with this model?

Would also love input lag numbers for this model.
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post #161 of 800 Old 10-15-2010, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flegg View Post

need more 2010 & 2011 tests!!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Inapprope View Post

Would also love input lag numbers for this model.

You're both gonna have to do/find them yourselves. This is a "post your results" thread, not a "post your requests" thread.
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post #162 of 800 Old 10-15-2010, 06:58 PM
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So the input lag problem persists through digital inputs as well, contrary to what the (admittedly outdated) gaming thread says at the top?

I'd so like to get the less expensive LG PK550, but if it's going to leave me trailing by several frames, I guess I'd just have to shell out a little extra for the G25 with it's ever-so-slightly-I-doubt-I'd-notice rising blacks and no 1080/24p support.
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post #163 of 800 Old 11-02-2010, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideshowxela View Post

So the input lag problem persists through digital inputs as well, contrary to what the (admittedly outdated) gaming thread says at the top?

I'd so like to get the less expensive LG PK550, but if it's going to leave me trailing by several frames, I guess I'd just have to shell out a little extra for the G25 with it's ever-so-slightly-I-doubt-I'd-notice rising blacks and no 1080/24p support.

Doesnt panasonic 2010 generation plasmas support 24p? i'd swear I saw VT20 to support it, and I guess the same for the rest of the models.

By the way, what do you think about the new PX990 LG plasma? 40ms imput lag on gaming mode, too bad?

http://www.avforums.com/review/LG-PX...TV-Review.html
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post #164 of 800 Old 11-02-2010, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerman View Post

Doesnt panasonic 2010 generation plasmas support 24p? i'd swear I saw VT20 to support it, and I guess the same for the rest of the models.

By the way, what do you think about the new PX990 LG plasma? 40ms imput lag on gaming mode, too bad?

http://www.avforums.com/review/LG-PX...TV-Review.html

the G25 has 48hz ... most complain about flicker, but technically it is 24p compatible.

The VT series has 48/96hz, and I believe the complaint about 96hz on those was that it didnt work right all the time. Not really sure.
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post #165 of 800 Old 11-13-2010, 09:07 AM
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You wouldn't want to play games at 24p. Input lag would be highest at 24p.
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post #166 of 800 Old 11-14-2010, 08:53 AM
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Just tested my Panasonic TC-P50GT25. I've got more pics but these had the least blurry counters:

Connected via VGA
Connected via HDMI
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post #167 of 800 Old 11-14-2010, 11:30 AM
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What is the best way to reduce input lag on a pk550?

FYI it is for competitive online FPS gaming on xbox 360 via HDMI
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post #168 of 800 Old 11-14-2010, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks toolman, added to OP.
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post #169 of 800 Old 11-18-2010, 09:10 AM
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Do I really have to shell out $2000 for the VT25 if I want less than 30ms of lag?

It seems like Panasonic's lower-end models (except the GT25, which costs almost as much) have a lot more now, though they used to be better.

The main reason I'd prefer not to go with the VT25 is that it only comes in 50-inch or larger sizes, it's very expensive, and I don't need the 3D functionality. It's a good TV, but I really don't need most of it's features.
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post #170 of 800 Old 11-18-2010, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post

Do I really have to shell out $2000 for the VT25 if I want less than 30ms of lag?

There's no evidence to suggest the VT25 has less than 30ms lag. The only test done so far was over VGA with a laptop as the source, which most likely means the lag is somewhere between 16-33 ms, same as the G25 and the GT25 (if we apply the same margin of error to toolman's recent post).

FWIW I don't notice the 16-30ms lag on my G25 - I have been loving gaming on it.
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post #171 of 800 Old 11-18-2010, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post

Do I really have to shell out $2000 for the VT25 if I want less than 30ms of lag?

It seems like Panasonic's lower-end models (except the GT25, which costs almost as much) have a lot more now, though they used to be better.

The main reason I'd prefer not to go with the VT25 is that it only comes in 50-inch or larger sizes, it's very expensive, and I don't need the 3D functionality. It's a good TV, but I really don't need most of it's features.

Get a Samsung 8000 or 7000 if you want to pay less. The input lag is pretty bad unless you put game mode on, but after you do, you'll get between 15-20ms of lag. Also, you can calibrate game mode to look just as good as movie mode, with the exception of user access to the 10p adjustment. I've been playing Call of Duty Black Ops and owning people.
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post #172 of 800 Old 11-18-2010, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post

Do I really have to shell out $2000 for the VT25 if I want less than 30ms of lag?

It seems like Panasonic's lower-end models (except the GT25, which costs almost as much) have a lot more now, though they used to be better.

The main reason I'd prefer not to go with the VT25 is that it only comes in 50-inch or larger sizes, it's very expensive, and I don't need the 3D functionality. It's a good TV, but I really don't need most of it's features.

Yea, I'm pretty confident all the models ranging from at least the G20 through the VT25 have the same amount of lag. The differences you're seeing is likely in the test monitor (e.g. CRT Vs. LCD's) and the PC used to run the clocks. This is why I put the asterisk disclaimer about laptops and LCD's as they are almost assuredly adding 5-10+ ms of lag Vs. the CRT tests. The possibility exists that there really is a slight difference between models (like the S1 Vs. G10/15 in the '09's--or possibly the size classes--that was really surprising to me), but I think it's more likely to just be differences in test methods.

On Samsung, I would be (pleasantly) surprised if they have truly reduced Game Mode lag to this same 15-30ms range. That is as low as their fabled PC modes from earlier model years that they have subsequently broke and their Game Modes were never able to match. I would love to see some hard numbers on that, be great to add to the OP.
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post #173 of 800 Old 11-18-2010, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Yea, I'm pretty confident all the models ranging from at least the G20 through the VT25 have the same amount of lag. The differences you're seeing is likely in the test monitor (e.g. CRT Vs. LCD's) and the PC used to run the clocks. This is why I put the asterisk disclaimer about laptops and LCD's as they are almost assuredly adding 5-10+ ms of lag Vs. the CRT tests. The possibility exists that there really is a slight difference between models (like the S1 Vs. G10/15 in the '09's--or possibly the size classes--that was really surprising to me), but I think it's more likely to just be differences in test methods.

On Samsung, I would be (pleasantly) surprised if they have truly reduced Game Mode lag to this same 15-30ms range. That is as low as their fabled PC modes from earlier model years that they have subsequently broke and their Game Modes were never able to match. I would love to see some hard numbers on that, be great to add to the OP.

Thanks, that's pretty helpful.

I think I'll probably get the G25, then. I've been looking at it for several weeks, but I was concerned about whether it was going to be good enough. I now think that the Panasonic plasmas probably have the lowest input lag of any modern television.

I suppose I can always keep a spare CRT around, for those games where even slight lag is very noticeable. I do feel extremely anxious about having to rely on a type of device that is no longer manufactured anywhere in the world as a backup for the latest technology, though.

Of course, the bright side is that once I have the G25 and a CRT... I can test it myself to be certain about the numbers.
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post #174 of 800 Old 11-22-2010, 11:58 AM
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I realize that an input lag test has been published on this thread for the European version of the Panasonic S2 but I was wondering if since then anyone has run a test on the North American version or has the capability to. I am Seriously looking into buying one and would like to know how it performs input lag wise. Would it most likely be on track with the European version?
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post #175 of 800 Old 12-22-2010, 01:11 AM
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sigh where is this input lag coming from exactly on plasmas
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post #176 of 800 Old 03-03-2011, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated OP with a simple step by step instructions on how to run tests so hopefully get more users can contribute. Would love to see results for '11 models now that they're starting to come out.

Thanks Mathesar, added it to OP
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post #177 of 800 Old 03-03-2011, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Updated OP with a simple step by step instructions on how to run tests so hopefully get more users can contribute. Would love to see results for '11 models now that they're starting to come out.

I tested my Kuro 5080HD (2007 8G model) using those instructions and after taking several shots It looks like its around 20ms, I dont have a CRT but the Samsung PX2370 LED model I used has 3 ms input lag vs. a CRT according to digitalversus, Would adding 3 ms to the results make it accurate?

Plasma was in PC mode connected with HDMI cable (GTX 480 videocard / Win 7) , LCD using DVI cable.






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post #178 of 800 Old 03-06-2011, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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For the first time in a while, a manufacturer is actually seriously addressing and marketing low input lag:

Toshiba are promising 0.7 frames of lag in Game Mode with their CEVO processor (~12ms?)

Unclear which models this includes.
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post #179 of 800 Old 03-07-2011, 09:19 AM
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awaiting panasonic ST model results ..
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post #180 of 800 Old 03-14-2011, 06:16 PM
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Cross posting my results from the Panasonic GT25 owners thread:

My results ranged from 0ms (more likely matching the lag of the laptops lcd instead of actually no input lag)



10ms



and 20ms



Testing was done with a Google CR-48 running Chrome OS connected to my 50" GT25 with a VGA cable in Game mode. I would have liked to test THX as well but its not available on the VGA input for some reason.

Given the fact that all of the results are an even spacing of exactly 10ms my guess is that it was somehow affected by VSYNC (there is no option to disable it on the CR-48 if it is indeed even on) Though I do think the 0ms result is rather cool regardless, it wasn't just a fluke either I had several of each result dispersed fairly evenly while I was adjusting my camera and taking shots (a Nikon D80 by the way). I'm surprised that none of these tests people are doing with an LCD display laptop actually ended up with a negative result due to the lag a lot of LCDs have, a CRT would be a much better reference.
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