Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 10:29 PM
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Like I said, phosphors can change over time requiring readjustment of your picture settings. Before everyone starts asking for repairmen or refunds, can you please adjust your brightness settings with a windowed pattern to see if this is a permanent worsening of your black levels, or if it can be fixed with some simple tweaking of the picture settings.
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post #272 of 11255 Old 10-13-2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

Like I said, phosphors can change over time requiring readjustment of your picture settings. Before everyone starts asking for repairmen or refunds, can you please adjust your brightness settings with a windowed pattern to see if this is a permanent worsening of your black levels, or if it can be fixed with some simple tweaking of the picture settings.

This doesn't change a thing, i can set the brightness and contrast to zero and the black levels remain the same, gray.
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post #273 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 05:54 AM
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Is this change noticeable just in the side bars and such or also in the picture. I though I recalled one guy saying that he could tell his bars were noticeable lighter but couldn't make out a difference in the picture.

I know it would still suck if it's just the side bars, but it wouldn't be as big of a deal.

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post #274 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 07:18 AM
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I tried the suggested 120 slides and slide 10 and 11 last night on my 50 G10. I have less than 300 hours for sure. Ran break in for 100-150. May be getting close to 300 though. Slide 11 looked like the TV was off so my blacks I guess are pretty good for now. I will notice a change if it happens drastically like mentioned. I will keep an eye out.
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post #275 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

To add one more bit of data: The 42X1 that D-Nice calibrated measured 0.0157 ftL -- with an extremely expensive PR-655 spectroradiometer.

Larry

That seems to be in line with your first measurement of .016 fL. According to Tom Huffman, the cheaper meters are good with luminance readings and not as good with color readings.


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post #276 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

Well phosphors do change during the lifetime of a plasma, usually requiring recalibration. Has everyone tried recalibrating their set to see if the black levels are improved? In other words, maybe the brightness or contrast setting needs to be adjusted once the phosphors have aged.

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Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

Like I said, phosphors can change over time requiring readjustment of your picture settings. Before everyone starts asking for repairmen or refunds, can you please adjust your brightness settings with a windowed pattern to see if this is a permanent worsening of your black levels, or if it can be fixed with some simple tweaking of the picture settings.

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Originally Posted by cold_fusion View Post

This is a somewhat valid point if the said calibration could somehow be performed by the inividual user of the set or a no brainer firmware upgrade from Panny...If your inferring that I have a prof. calibrator come out an adjust my basically new plasma for panny's subpar blacks and pay extra money....well, you don't even want me to go there considering what I paid for the set in the first place....

I think I've suitably addressed this by setting the Brightness to ZERO and still measuring the inflated level. Whatever is going on is probably happening at a much lower level than anything the consumer can access--either hardware or FW controlled. This is not something that can simply be calibrated out. There is nothing subjective about calibrating the black levels of these displays. The dithering pattern/activation noise that occurs when you start artificially inflating the level with "settings" is blatantly obvious.
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post #277 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by iVersatile View Post

Yeah, don't know exactly how i am going to bring it up though, I tried once before but i don't think they quite understood what i was saying.

Again, what I think would be most persuasive is if people with the problem could call Panasonic with actual measured data/numbers, in the way that Orta did. I fear that otherwise they'll take the call and just write it off with something like "well, this guy obviously doesn't understand that plasma's have a break-in period" or "yeah, just another anal retentive guy who probably was watching in Vivid mode and now he's in Standard and doesn't understand they look different," etc.
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post #278 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I think I've suitably addressed this by setting the Brightness to ZERO and still measuring the inflated level. Whatever is going on is probably happening at a much lower level than anything the consumer can access--either hardware or FW controlled. This is not something that can simply be calibrated out. There is nothing subjective about calibrating the black levels of these displays. The dithering pattern/activation noise that occurs when you start artificially inflating the level with "settings" is blatantly obvious.

Orta, since you're the only person with measured results, have you been able to actually get your numbers in front of a qualified technical person at Panasonic and get a response?
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post #279 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 08:26 PM
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Maybe I will get unlucky enough to have the levels raise before my 30 days are up....
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post #280 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 08:52 PM
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Here's another thought. For those of you who had the number rise, maybe you could post back with how you went about your breakin procedure. I read elsewhere on this forum that if you just brute-force it (ie running nonstop for 7 days) it actually can stress the set and cause problems. One guy claimed that he was at a meeting where Samsung was discussing the fact that many sets start having issues shortly after people do the "break-in" procedure.

Perhaps it would be helpful for people who have the problem to post how they went about breaking in their set (could be something got fried by overheating that's supposed to control the black level - i know these panasonics have something built-in that's supposed to auto-adjust the black level to the material being presented (ie. how it shifts the level of black lighter and darker to suit what's on the screen). Perhaps during the break-in process this chip is somehow getting damages.
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post #281 of 11255 Old 10-14-2009, 10:09 PM
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Is it noticable for naked eye? i mean is it so obvious?
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post #282 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Is it noticable for naked eye? i mean is it so obvious?

Well, we didn't have any talk of this until Orta posted his measurements. We've had a couple of people here report that on their TVs it is extremely obvious. Again - we need more measurements, we only have ONE person with a measured significant increase in their level.

For me, I never even thought about it on my G10, which I've had probably about as long as Orta has had his. I admit, once I read his post, I started looking at mine and thinking, hmmm, boy, are the borders as black as they used to be? Maybe not? But on my TV there was nothing so noticeable that I would have even thought about it had Orta not reported his troubles. I will try to get measurements this weekend on both my "aged" 46G10 and my brand new, just running the slides 54G10 (which, fwiw, even though it is brand new, has a May 2009 manufactured date.)

We've now got a lot of people looking for it, but only a couple who claim they absolutely without a doubt have a change (but again, no measurements.)
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post #283 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 12:13 PM
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So, contacted panny couple of days ago, about this, they tried the usual resets and adjustments but no change. So at the end of it they set up a service call, which i'm still waiting to be scheduled, because they said there were no service technicians available in my area so they had to push it up to managment and have them set up the service call. why i don't know but they did say i would get a call within 24 to 48 hrs, so im hoping i can get something done or at least get an explanation of what is occuring......
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post #284 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by battousai147 View Post

So, contacted panny couple of days ago, about this, they tried the usual resets and adjustments but no change. So at the end of it they set up a service call, which i'm still waiting to be scheduled, because they said there were no service technicians available in my area so they had to push it up to managment and have them set up the service call. why i don't know but they did say i would get a call within 24 to 48 hrs, so im hoping i can get something done or at least get an explanation of what is occuring......

That is outstanding - thanks for your persistance. It will be VERY interesting to see what they have to say about this. It will also be interesting to see if they come with equipment to measure actual levels - if they do, please ask them to give you the numbers so you can post it here!
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post #285 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 05:02 PM
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So I posted previously that my Panny G10 to my naked eye has shown an increase in the black level since purchase, probably around the 600-700 hour mark. I noticed this while watching a blu-ray movie, and this was before I even knew about this thread (thus not looking for a black level problem). I got a case # from Panny about 2 weeks ago and wasn't able to give them all my info (serial #, etc.) since I was at work, so finally found time to call back today. The person I spoke with was very helpful and he felt that the G10 and V10 should be exhibiting a dark, inky black and there should be absolutely no question as to it's darkness. He said when him and other reps saw the new units when they were first unveiled they were blown away by the black level. I agreed that when I first got my set I couldn't be happier. He understood my frustration, transferred me to a tech, and I now have an appointment scheduled for Oct. 23 for a tech to come check out the t.v. I have to say that the guy I spoke to on the phone was top notch. I asked him if he fielded any other 12G black level calls and he said no, but the units are still new to the marketplace. He also said that while the reviews for the model have been exceptional, the reviews are done on new units, not after 1,000 hours (for example). I was impressed by his candor. I just hope the technician knows what he's doing and doesn't try to explain away the issue. It is real and I want back my original G10 blacks!

BTW, I hope others seeing this problem call Panny and get case #'s and ask for a tech to come out. The more we call, the more Panny knows about the issue and the more techs may be able to figure something out.

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post #286 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

Perhaps it would be helpful for people who have the problem to post how they went about breaking in their set (could be something got fried by overheating that's supposed to control the black level - i know these panasonics have something built-in that's supposed to auto-adjust the black level to the material being presented (ie. how it shifts the level of black lighter and darker to suit what's on the screen). Perhaps during the break-in process this chip is somehow getting damages.

Kinda like how with cars its always the sensor that breaks as opposed to whatever it's supposed to actually be sensing.
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post #287 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by erocuroc View Post

So I posted previously that my Panny G10 to my naked eye has shown an increase in the black level since purchase, probably around the 600-700 hour mark. I noticed this while watching a blu-ray movie, and this was before I even knew about this thread (thus not looking for a black level problem). I got a case # from Panny about 2 weeks ago and wasn't able to give them all my info (serial #, etc.) since I was at work, so finally found time to call back today. The person I spoke with was very helpful and he felt that the G10 and V10 should be exhibiting a dark, inky black and there should be absolutely no question as to it's darkness. He said when him and other reps saw the new units when they were first unveiled they were blown away by the black level. I agreed that when I first got my set I couldn't be happier. He understood my frustration, transferred me to a tech, and I now have an appointment scheduled for Oct. 23 for a tech to come check out the t.v. I have to say that the guy I spoke to on the phone was top notch. I asked him if he fielded any other 12G black level calls and he said no, but the units are still new to the marketplace. He also said that while the reviews for the model have been exceptional, the reviews are done on new units, not after 1,000 hours (for example). I was impressed by his candor. I just hope the technician knows what he's doing and doesn't try to explain away the issue. It is real and I want back my original G10 blacks!

BTW, I hope others seeing this problem call Panny and get case #'s and ask for a tech to come out. The more we call, the more Panny knows about the issue and the more techs may be able to figure something out.

+1

mighty fine advise, if I do say so myself!!! I don't have a meter but I can tell you with absolute assuredness, that my sisters brand new 50S1 blows my 6 month old 50G10's blacks away on borders, 4:3 and 2.35:1, the blacks on the break-in jpegs, on blank inputs, and on the black screen saver of the WDTV....it's highly visible with the naked eye...
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post #288 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 05:42 PM
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same problem here my blacks are glowing on TH-50PX80U , over 1200 hours about 7 months old. When i first noticed i thought is my HD cable box so i replaced right away since i am a TWC tech, but it seems that the HD box wasn't the problem so i called Panasonic. They sent a tech out to see whats the problem. The (tech) guy was telling me that he doesn't see the problem but he recommends to put my tv in vivid mode because looks better. I told him no way because it will crush the blacks and the gamma is inaccurate . He said that he doesnt know what is that but he can change boards all day long on my tv and will still look the same. Well i called Panasonic again and told them about this guy and they hooked me up the the GM from this company, good guy he understood my issue and he will call Panasonic to see whats the options.
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post #289 of 11255 Old 10-15-2009, 06:40 PM
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For the experts here - when I check my black levels with my Spyder3 and CalMan this weekend, what is the best pattern/measurement to grab for numbers that we can compare?
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post #290 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 02:28 PM
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Follow-up question: if I read an 11 point grayscale measurement in CalMan, 0% to 100%, will the 0% Y numbers (in fL) be comparable to the Black numbers Orta is reporting? I want to generate some more data for this thread.
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post #291 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Follow-up question: if I read an 11 point grayscale measurement in CalMan, 0% to 100%, will the 0% Y numbers (in fL) be comparable to the Black numbers Orta is reporting? I want to generate some more data for this thread.

Yes.

Larry
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post #292 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Follow-up question: if I read an 11 point grayscale measurement in CalMan, 0% to 100%, will the 0% Y numbers (in fL) be comparable to the Black numbers Orta is reporting? I want to generate some more data for this thread.

IMO the best 2 readings you can do are
1) TV completely off, take a few readings of just the panel to see what room noise level is on your meter.
2) TV on, input selected with no source material for a complete black screen, take a couple of readings for the actual screen black-level.

Logging and repeating those readings (especially the second) throughout use of the set will establish the validity of this problem. It will also establish if your meter is capable of measuring the black levels of the G10 reliably.
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post #293 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 02:45 PM
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Orta measured the black level using the 0% simulus on a calibration disk. Apples to apples. (Of course one should also use the same disk and player.)

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post #294 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Orta measured the black level using the 0% simulus on a calibration disk. Apples to apples. (Of course one should also use the same disk and player.)

Larry

And while true, I'm not sure without going back what setup Orta used, but if jeff's is different it really doesn't matter because his won't translate to Orta's... they'll remain two distinct sets.

Nonetheless I think the zero-input condition is a valuable test because it means only the TV and it's circuitry are a factor, there is no signal from a player or generator anywhere. Isolate variables and minimize factors... you know.
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post #295 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 02:57 PM
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Agree about the zero input.

My i1 LT measured 0.00019ftL when it was wrapped in multiple layers of black flannel and put in an opaque box. Good enough to measure any plasma.

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post #296 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Agree about the zero input.

My i1 LT measured 0.00019ftL when it was wrapped in multiple layers of black flannel and put in an opaque box. Good enough to measure any plasma.

Larry

Holy carp. Are you off an order of magnitude or do you really mean 0.00019 ftL
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post #297 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 03:05 PM
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Yes, 0.00019ftL in a total black environment -- repeatable.

Larry
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post #298 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 03:18 PM
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Well, my original 0% measurement with my Enhanced Spyder3 (46G10) was .0024 fL at 0%. That seems too low.
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post #299 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 03:21 PM
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Jeff,

0% on a plasma screen is different from total black. You're a scientist. Get a baseline.

larry
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post #300 of 11255 Old 10-16-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Jeff,

0% on a plasma screen is different from total black. You're a scientist. Get a baseline.

larry

Larry, I'm a good scientist, which means I also know the areas in which I am ignorant and need help from experts!

So, please help me get up to speed. When I ran that calibration (11 pt) measurement, I just pretty much followed the prompts in CalMan. So that's the data I have from back then.

Tomorrow I will be running some measurements on my 46G10, which I've had since about June or so, and a brand new 54G10 that has only been on for about 20 hours of break-in slides. What would you recommend as the procedure/process I should follow to get data I can post here for experts to mull? Basically wanting to get some data into this black level discussion.

I'm using the GetGray disc (though I also have the BD version of AVE if that has better patterns for this.) CalMan and Spyder 3.
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