Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 103 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3061 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chillspace View Post

Wow, batpig. You only joined in 2007 and you have over 11,000 posts. crazy.

It's been a productive three years


I do think Panasonic must have been using a similar type of voltage regulation for a long time though, only it didn't go apesh!t like with these current 12G sets. That's why you hear scattered reports of 11G (80/800U) owners who have noticed a gradual change, people (such as Tom Huffman) have also noted it on older sets (e.g. 75U), and I have noted it on my PH10UK pro model as well.

But these are all gradual changes over a long period of time, something for which you would really need a measuring device to confirm to make sure your eyes aren't playing tricks on you. My 10UK has gone from a MLL of around 0.034 ftL to around 0.052 ftL these days.

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post #3062 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:22 AM
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Let me be clear. I purchased my 58' S1 based on several factors. Advertised deep blacks was one of them. Even now if you go to this link below, Panasonic bills this plasma as having deep blacks in the "Overview" section. I does not state deep blacks up to the first 1000 hours or so.

I don't care about any of the Geek Speak explanations about Voltage. I fully understand that the set will slowly deteriorate over time and I was prepared for that; but not after a few thousdand hours. Just like everyone else, I laid down a chunk of change for this set and I want this issue not just addressed but a remedy found. I feel it is reasonable to give Panasonic at least a few months to resolve this issue. Paying customers do give a rat's ---s what you are going to do to prevent this from happening in future models. You won't be able to sell your future models if the majority do trust your company / products. If you don't understand that concept, then you just try to run you own business with that kind of attitude and see how quickly things crumble around you. I am putting in my call to Panasonic today. I will be pleasent, but firm in demanding a resolution.
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post #3063 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Ask and you shall receive. As soon as I get "pre-order" capabilities for the TC-P50S2, I will purchase the TC-P50S1 (need it for the S2 review anyway) and will thoroughly monitor the idle black rise from 0 hours to 2000 hours.

BTW, asking/expecting HD Guru to do anything that tarnishing Panasonic reputation is futile.

Will testing the S2 panels in this manner allow us to extrapolate the results to the G and V series 2010 panels?

Wes Sokolosky
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post #3064 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:47 AM
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Just got off the phone with Panny and got them to send a tech out next Tues. He will be coming to look at my IR problem and lack of the Infinite Black in vivid mode.

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post #3065 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:49 AM
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Orta,
Your blacks and hours used are about the same as mine. Do me a favor and check your vivid mode and see if it shuts down to infinite black like it is supposed to. Thanks

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post #3066 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

Orta,
Your blacks and hours used are about the same as mine. Do me a favor and check your vivid mode and see if it shuts down to infinite black like it is supposed to. Thanks

Saw your post and thought I would chime in. My infinite black worked absolutely fine in vivid mode until my blacks changed.

Now in vivid mode, when I put the same black slide that used to "turn off" the screen, it stays gray.

54G10
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post #3067 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:55 AM
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Adding my own .02 I race Jet Ski's. 2007 Kawasaki produced the Ultra 250x. Several months after people took ownership of these crafts, they began to notice their oil level would increase by 3, 4, 500 CC's when they would change the oil. AND they would notice it smelled like gasoline.

People started to monitor this a lot more, with more and more coming forward saying they had it. Many said they did not as well. We had several people approach Kawi, and they never ONCE addressed/admitted the issue. So, guys started leaving the oil unchanged, and motors started blowing up due to the viscosity reduction. Maybe this got Kawi's attention, the 2008 model was "somewhat" better, but still had GAS IN OIL (GIO as we termed it). Then the 2009 models came out, and they also had signifigant less GIO.

They had a flow valve installed in order to keep the motor warmer so that the fuel FUMES (its in fume stage while motor is running, once it cools it condenses to liquid) would burn off. Now 2010 they have increased compression levels, and are hoping (this is my speculation hoping) the GIO is GONE forever. MANY owners had no where to go, but we were left changing oil every 10 hours! Guys dumped the Ski's so fast it was not funny! Others began to work on "fixes". Several aftermarket companies jumped on this. I purchased $500 in "fixes" for my ski. They seemed to work but many were pissed like many in this thread. In the end, nothing was done for current owners. No refunds, no returns, just warrenty work on blown motors!

We had hundreds of pages of threads on that forum, we had GOI Roll calls, etc, etc. But nothing got done with that info. Because I knew I was using my boat as a Race boat, I was fine with changing oil every 10 hours, as I usually changed prior to a race. BUT for the average Rec Rider, this would REALLY suck, and I would understand their frustration. Now many guys have retrofitted their 2007's with 2009/2010 parts. Granted part swapping on our PDP's might not be as easy. Anyways, I hope I don't sound like doom and gloom, I am VERY upset over this. I purchased my V10 on CNET's reviews, as well as the reviews here. I did a LOT of research, but now am having buyers remorse. I have not gone into RiBL (Rising Black Level) and I pray I don't, but if I doDAMMMIT WILL SUCK! I hope panny does something! As an owner that has not gotten RiBL, what should I do? What should we do?

I did purchase BB Black tie EW, so maybe that was a good buy after all if I need to use it. ManPeople downed the Sammy Buzzers, but not ALL had the buzz, and you could tell right away. Now, this is like a delayed time bomb! I think I would have rather purchased the Sammy, I would bet the blacks are better than some of the guys here that are having issues.

A frustrated Panny owner not looking/wanting RiBL

(BTWI still love my Kawi!)
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post #3068 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chillspace View Post

Spare me the class action lawsuit propaganda. We all know if this goes to that level and the consumer wins, I'm sure you'll be happy with your 81 cent check after it's all said and done. The company will move on and simply say, we'll make sure it doesn't happen with any of our future products. Case closed.

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Sony didnt get off that easy with their optical block green blob mess from what I have personally dealt with.

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post #3069 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

Saw your post and thought I would chime in. My infinite black worked absolutely fine in vivid mode until my blacks changed.

Now in vivid mode, when I put the same black slide that used to "turn off" the screen, it stays gray.

54G10

Sorry to hear that. However now do have another problem which is an offshoot from the rising blacks due to the voltage increase? Having rising blacks is one thing but the Infinite Black is a major part of the viera advertising even if it is only an option in one viewing mode. I wonder how many people would have bought this tv knowing that infinite black wasn't available in all modes but only available in a mode that they will never watch.
Call them up and demand a tech come out. That's what I did and they were actually very nice and had no problem sending a tech. However they did say that the tech would only be out to "evaluate" my situation.

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post #3070 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

Saw your post and thought I would chime in. My infinite black worked absolutely fine in vivid mode until my blacks changed.

Now in vivid mode, when I put the same black slide that used to "turn off" the screen, it stays gray.

54G10

Well this is interesting, maybe this is a quick and easy way to truly tell if you have been hit by this issue?
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post #3071 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:02 PM
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I was watching a news story about Toyota earlier on CNN. I was on my laptop at the time so I was not really paying attention until I heard them say Panasonic. I think they where talking about the reputation of quality the Japanese have and how that reputation is being threatened recently with lower quality products. They mentioned two or three other names including Panasonic.

I think all Japanese manufacturers are going to be under the microscope now that Toyota messed up. I wonder if CNN will pick up this story. Someone that cares more than me should email CNN about the drop in quality of Japanese products such as Panasonics line of Plasma TVs

If they can tie this story to the Toyota story I think it stands a good chance of being picked up.
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post #3072 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

Saw your post and thought I would chime in. My infinite black worked absolutely fine in vivid mode until my blacks changed.

Now in vivid mode, when I put the same black slide that used to "turn off" the screen, it stays gray.

54G10

umm, where and what black slide are you using as I'd like to try this on my 50g10? how do you use the slide? on a dvd or sd card?
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post #3073 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:08 PM
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I almost purchased a Panasonic plasma last year, but my mother became gravely ill, and I had to postpone my plan. Now as I ponder what has occurred, I wonder if this is only a Panasonic issue. We all know that manufacturers use the dreaded "Torch Mode" to attract average consumers who view sets at places such as Best Buy, Sears, etc. I wonder if we are now discovering that some manufacturers have produced a "Review Mode" to allow their sets to be at their best when new and being reviewed by magazines such as Home Theater or Sound & Vision, or online by CNET or by critical buyers such as many of the members of AVS. Then, later, the installed software causes changes to some settings, etc. with the idea that the set will last longer at those new levels and no doubt there will also be less service issues for manufacturers at the new non-Review levels. I know it would not be nearly as "sexy" to have a shoot-out among sets that are a year old--eveyone is always excited to see how improved the newest models are, not more news on last years models--but I would love to see some group or magazine find TVs that have perhaps 1000 hours of use and test those to see how well they compare to their "Review Mode" results. We may discover that other sets also have issues with software induced changes. This could be an issue that has been hidden from the public until this moment. I am paranoid enough to wonder if other companies are doing similar changes to their sets, whether plasma or lcd!
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post #3074 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:13 PM
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just switch your input to one that is not being used and cycle thru the pic modes. They should all be the same black/gray level except for vivid mode which should be totally black like when the tv is off.

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post #3075 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:44 PM
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My G10 (~ 8 mo. of 5-6 hours/day use) is also afflicted by the black level rise. Switching through the picture modes on an unused input per your suggestion showed a constant gray in all modes -- including vivid.
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post #3076 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:53 PM
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I have a 46G10 being delivered on Monday, and I just found this thread. Phhbgt.

I guess I'll take my chances and hope for the best... anyone have a good argument for or against running break in slides in light of this?
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post #3077 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:53 PM
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Well crap, I just found this thread. I have 2 42" 85u's in the house and one 54" G10. Now I have to go and check them.

I also have to bite my tongue for all the recommendations I've made to friends and family over the last 2 years!

Here I've been bragging up Pannys and Plasma and I have to shut up now. I am not happy.

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post #3078 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

just switch your input to one that is not being used and cycle thru the pic modes. They should all be the same black/gray level except for vivid mode which should be totally black like when the tv is off.

Is this method 100% correct? If so, then this is a great way to see if the issue exists. Can someone that is measuring .007 or .008 please try this and report back whether or not Vivid mode looks any different than the other picture modes? For those of us without light meters, this would be an easy way to identify whether or not the issue is present.

I know that my vivid mode looks exactly the same as all other picture modes on a blank input.

FYI - My A-board was replaced and the issue was resolved for approximately 2 weeks but it came back. My display once again fades to grey. I'm not sure if the required factory reset is what made the set look black again or if it was the A-board. However, there is no denying that the issue is back on my display. This is ridiculous.
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post #3079 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by The_U View Post

FYI - My A-board was replaced and the issue was resolved for approximately 2 weeks but it came back. My display once again fades to grey. I'm not sure if the required factory reset is what made the set look black again or if it was the A-board. However, there is no denying that the issue is back on my display. This is ridiculous.

hmmm, If it's a firmware fix I'd assume Panasonic could remedy the problem but then they'd have to consult the engineers as to decreasing the voltage regulation at certain time intervals.

I'm wondering if they used a Varistor of some sorts which would make it a hardware fix. A Varistor will deterioate in time after much excessive voltage transient voltages. Maybe they put in some cheapy or defective part in the circuitry.

Varistor: A varistor is an electronic component with a significant nonlinear current–voltage characteristic. The name is a portmanteau of variable resistor. Varistors are often used to protect circuits against excessive transient voltages by incorporating them into the circuit in such a way that, when triggered, they will shunt the current created by the high voltage away from the sensitive components. A varistor is also known as Voltage Dependent Resistor or VDR. A varistor’s function is to conduct significantly increased current when voltage is excessive.


edit: after thinking here a bit more, if an "A" board replacement fixed your 2xblack level problem but the problem reappeared in 2 weeks, I'd assume somethings degrading the "A" board circuitry at an accelerated pace.
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post #3080 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:19 PM
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My third set has the issue like the two before it, so how can you say, it affects only 1 percent or so?

show me you readings from those sets to prove the problem...

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post #3081 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:21 PM
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Well I should have checked this page 1st....
I did the reset from page 1 before reading the Infinate Black part ( I never use Vivid mode). I just checked it, it is dead black on Vivid mode, I can not say what is was before the reset.
Anyway I have a little over 2000 hours on my 54g10 & about 3 weeks ago I was able see the change over night like others here in a total dark room

I rather have less panel life span & better blacks or atlease give us the option (on/off). Since I am one of those people that gets a new tv every 3-4 years, I do not care if it has a 100,000 life spand.
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post #3082 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr. John View Post

Well crap, I just found this thread. I have 2 42" 85u's in the house and one 54" G10. Now I have to go and check them.

I also have to bite my tongue for all the recommendations I've made to friends and family over the last 2 years!

Here I've been bragging up Pannys and Plasma and I have to shut up now. I am not happy.

Lets see, you have these Plasmas and have been happy with them and now you have discovered this thread and now your going to be unhappy. My suggestion is forget this thread and go back to being happy.

My G15 looks great!
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post #3083 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:22 PM
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Today I measured my old sony 32v4500 (year 2008 european model) which I sold to a friend. When I turned the tv on I couldn´t believe how good the blacks looked. Both sets meausured pretty much same in black screen (sony 0.015 fL panasonic 0.016 fL) when brightness was adjusted to 34 fL. When there was content on screen sony destroyed panasonic. Ansi contrast in sony was 2266:1 (0.015 fL black, 34 fL white) while panasonic only managed 1080:1 (0.030 fL black, 32.4 fL white). Measurements were taken in dark room.

I still can´t believe how grey panasonic looks on dark scenes compared to sony. I have one question to Orta, is your and mine meausurements comparable if I measure my black level with the same peak brightness as you (140 cd/m2) ?
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post #3084 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:25 PM
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This is an excerpt from the g10 review from hdtvmagazine.com.

"The TV really shows its strength in darker scenes. There is plenty of contrast to make out even the most subtle shadows. Blacks are very deep. Panasonic calls their technology "Infinite Black". From what we could find out about it is that the TV shuts off power to the pixel to achieve "Infinite Black". Whatever they call it it works. "

Seems like it only works until your blacks turn grey.

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post #3085 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

This is an excerpt from the g10 review from hdtvmagazine.com.

"The TV really shows its strength in darker scenes. There is plenty of contrast to make out even the most subtle shadows. Blacks are very deep. Panasonic calls their technology "Infinite Black". From what we could find out about it is that the TV shuts off power to the pixel to achieve "Infinite Black". Whatever they call it it works. "

Seems like it only works until your blacks turn grey.

Maybe its best you email them what CNET has to say about this with Panasonics response. Spread the WORD
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post #3086 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakke View Post

Today I measured my old sony 32v4500 (year 2008 european model) which I sold to a friend. When I turned the tv on I couldn´t believe how good the blacks looked. Both sets meausured pretty much same in black screen (sony 0.015 fL panasonic 0.016 fL) when brightness was adjusted to 34 fL. When there was content on screen sony destroyed panasonic. Ansi contrast in sony was 2266:1 (0.015 fL black, 34 fL white) while panasonic only managed 1080:1 (0.030 fL black, 32.4 fL white). Measurements were taken in dark room.

I still can´t believe how grey panasonic looks on dark scenes compared to sony. I have one question to Orta, is your and mine meausurements comparable if I measure my black level with the same peak brightness as you (140 cd/m2) ?

How did you go from .016ftl to .030ftl on the panasonic?

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post #3087 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:36 PM
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So I wanted to see what other sets were measuring since I already told people I can reach .007 on my v10. Like I said before I had a bunch of friends with in the area I live in with 12g panasonics. I was able to send my friend to 8 of there houses in the last week. Not one tv(hours of use between 100-2000 hours) measured more than .010 running in custom mode.. Some were calibrated some were not. The tvs were s,v,g and 1 z model. This still leads me to believe there is an issue but is completely isolated to such a small number of sets. I believe Dnice stating it affects all models, just not all sets. My opinion is that certain break in methods or maybe power supply or something the user does to affect this. Not one person that was tested did any break in procedures. If you read the article on cnet it states that the levels will rise over time but not double like some people have PROVED and most that speculate and refuse to you prove. Its really baffles me why some people say "why should I use a meter when my eyes let me see the problem".. well sorry to say the eyes can play serious tricks on you..thats been proved.. so what needs to happen is everyone that has a problem, post on a new thread just meter readings on certain tv modes with content. Not just a blank screen with no input. EVERYONE should no there is a glow on a black screen. My tv reads .007 and has a glow in a all dark room...

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post #3088 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:40 PM
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How did you go from .016ftl to .030ftl on the panasonic?

With black screen I got 0.016fL and 4x4 ansi measured 0.030fL. Orta measured about 0.029fL in ansi test. Ansi tells lot moore about black capability than just black screen measurement.
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post #3089 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:44 PM
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Gotcha.. you did the checkerboard test. I also did that and came up with 1214 ansi and 2115 on/off CR. I missed the word ANSI in your post..sorry. Mine was done about a month ago so maybe I should check again.

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post #3090 of 11682 Old 02-05-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

So I wanted to see what other sets were measuring since I already told people I can reach .007 on my v10. Like I said before I had a bunch of friends with in the area I live in with 12g panasonics. I was able to send my friend to 8 of there houses in the last week. Not one tv(hours of use between 100-2000 hours) measured more than .010 running in custom mode.. Some were calibrated some were not. The tvs were s,v,g and 1 z model. This still leads me to believe there is an issue but is completely isolated to such a small number of sets. I believe Dnice stating it affects all models, just not all sets. My opinion is that certain break in methods or maybe power supply or something the user does to affect this. Not one person that was tested did any break in procedures. If you read the article on cnet it states that the levels will rise over time but not double like some people have PROVED and most that speculate and refuse to you prove. Its really baffles me why some people say "why should I use a meter when my eyes let me see the problem".. well sorry to say the eyes can play serious tricks on you..thats been proved.. so what needs to happen is everyone that has a problem, post on a new thread just meter readings on certain tv modes with content. Not just a blank screen with no input. EVERYONE should no there is a glow on a black screen. My tv reads .007 and has a glow in a all dark room...

Most s1 measurements i've seen in the s1 thread are near 0.014 ftL.

What meter was used and what size were your friends' tv's?
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