Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 109 - AVS Forum
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post #3241 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

I have the 46s1 April build as well. I haven't been in the service menu to check the hours yet. But I must say you sure watch A lot of T.V

My thoughts exactly. My March 90 46S1 just crossed 1600 hours and I thought I was watching too much.
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post #3242 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 05:54 AM
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If this is indeed caused by a voltage change is there anyway we can access this through a service menu or something? I love my 54G10... but I've only had it two weeks and I not sure what else I can get comparable for the same price. We have a lot of pros in this forum and in my opinion panny is not going to do anything about this...so can we take this into our own hands and fix it?
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post #3243 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

Even though it has only been noted on the 11/12g panels, I'm starting to wonder how far back we can really go and log some significant black level change. (On older models)

Sadly maybe panasonic really did mean their blacks fade away.

Well, as I stated previously, I tested both my 2008 42" 85u sets and they both went to complete black set on Vivid. If this is truly telling or not I have no idea.

My 54" G10 from an October purchase with ONLY 750 hrs on it did not pass the test. Again, I don't know if this is telling or not.

I'm getting pretty antsy with three sets in the house though. Especially after waiting 5+ years to get a new set upgrade from my 20+ yr old 27" Trinitron!

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post #3244 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:13 AM
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I just checked my 54G10, June build date, 794 hours per service menu.

I do get the "infinite black" shutoff on Vivid mode with a blank screen.

I also feel like my TV is noticeably brighter than when first purchased.

One thing I don't know is being mentioned, this was the first generation of TVs to be marketed by Panasonic as "Neo PDP". That just tells me there was new, possibly unproven/not bug-free, technology in these sets.
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post #3245 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

If driving voltages as it relates to the initialization voltage really is the culprit to this rising black levels, then I would imagine a firmware update COULD be considered... adding a new variable parameter and call it "minimum black adjustment" or something and give it several pre-defined values (akin to the "black level" option of "light" and "dark"). The default setting being the worst case (so as to keep 'defective return' numbers low), and other options for that setting could knock down the voltage(s) by predetermined percentages (5%, 13%, 18%, etc).

That is most likely the only possible fix through firmware. However would Panasonic do that ? Such a fix would be an admission that a significant percentage of their products are "outliers" (not within manufacturing tolerances).

This type of fix might also create another set of problems. What if Joe six pack sets the wrong voltage value ? What would be the long term repercussions of that ? Perhaps someone more knowledgable on pdp technology might hint us if it is possible to damage the panel with user customizable panel drive voltage settings ?
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post #3246 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand voltage adjustments are in fact needed to compensate for the panel getting dimmer overtime.

When you say "dimmer over time" it sounds like you are referencing the brightness lifetime (e.g. 100,000 hours)?

If so, IMO that is not the case. The statement by Panasonic describes almost exactly what is in the patent. The gas becomes more difficult to discharge over time and if the voltage is not increased, the gas will not discharge at all and the pixel will misfire. The unwanted side effect is that the higher voltage also increases the background light emission (black level).

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #3247 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by pdstryker View Post

The million dollar question is if some 2010 panys will also be prone to this defect that is affecting SOME of the 2009 panys.

Perhaps we can find an answer to that by interpreting Panasonic's statement. They say that 2010 models will feature "gradual" voltage adjustments. By now most of us who have followed this thread know from Panasonic's patent that black levels are expected to rise as the panel ages but they are certainly not expected to DOUBLE within 1000 hours.

Now I'm a skeptic by nature so maybe I interpret this differently than others but the way I read this is "Yes some 2010 units will also have this problem but we changed the firmware so the rising black levels will be less noticable this year. The only people that would notice the change would be those who own a light meter. We can deal with them".
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post #3248 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:37 AM
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I have a 1.28 G10, and infinite black worked for me this morning.
I tired last night for a while with a blank screen in Vivid mode and nothing. It used to turn off all the time. I actually forgot the tv on, it shut off by itself!
This morning it worked! I got mine in July!
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post #3249 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Wow.

You know, this is Panasonic's "Toyota" moment. The difference will be that the normal media outlets won't cover it like they did Toyota's failure.

The question I have is has Panasonic changed enough of the panel design for 2010 to have overcome this needed voltage increase?

I'm glad this problem came out, Looks like I'm keeping my tube RPTV for a little while longer till technology catches up.

Despite the heart attacks people in this forum are having, a panasonic can't kill you if it's not working perfectly


Oh and why do people register to post how they aren't going to buy a Panasonic plasma now? Are people this bored and stupid. Really, thanks for adding to the discussion guys, I feel so happy to know about your purchase decisions... not.

Anyway, my Panasonic still looks great 5 months in. If it lasts a couple more years, I am fine with that as I will likely want the new technology anyway.

I think we have a few obsessive compulsive people in these forums...


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post #3250 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 06:53 AM
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This is still better then the swarm of bee's I had with my B650. LOL
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post #3251 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

When you say "dimmer over time" it sounds like you are referencing the brightness lifetime (e.g. 100,000 hours)?

If so, IMO that is not the case. The statement by Panasonic describes almost exactly what is in the patent. The gas becomes more difficult to discharge over time and if the voltage is not increased, the gas will not discharge at all and the pixel will misfire. The unwanted side effect is that the higher voltage also increases the background light emission (black level).

So if you are right, brightness level will increase on all plasmas?
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post #3252 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panabolic View Post

Despite the heart attacks people in this forum are having, a panasonic can't kill you if it's not working perfectly


Oh and why do people register to post how they aren't going to buy a Panasonic plasma now? Are people this bored and stupid. Really, thanks for adding to the discussion guys, I feel so happy to know about your purchase decisions... not.

Anyway, my Panasonic still looks great 5 months in. If it lasts a couple more years, I am fine with that as I will likely want the new technology anyway.

I think we have a few obsessive compulsive people in these forums...

Because C-Net credited AVSforum in the blog. I guess that is rightfully good for the forum owners though. We'll just have to put up with a little more craziness than normal.
With some of the ridiculousness going on here I want to take it one step further and give the "Issue" a name. Lets call it the "Michael Jackson Effect".
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post #3253 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

Because C-Net credited AVSforum in the blog. I guess that is rightfully good for the forum owners though. We'll just have to put up with a little more craziness than normal.
With some of the ridiculousness going on here I want to take it one step further and give the "Issue" a name. Lets call it the "Michael Jackson Effect".

Good Lord! No! So now parts are going to fall of it too. (noses)
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post #3254 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 07:49 AM
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just to confirm on the Infinite black levels test...I used the all black slide on an SD card...switched my picture setting to VIVID, closed the menu and the panel should shut off? Actually shut off (as in the red power light goes off) or just appears to turn off? Displaying the black photo in VIVID mode doesn't actually turn my TV off, and after I close the menu, I can still tell the TV is on. When I physically turn the TV off at this point, the screen does really go "black". From the sounds of it, I have at least the infinite black problem.

46G10, Oct 2009 build. 1.28 fw (updated from ?? the first time I turned the TV on...)
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post #3255 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonesdad View Post

just to confirm on the Infinite black levels test...I used the all black slide on an SD card...switched my picture setting to VIVID, closed the menu and the panel should shut off? Actually shut off (as in the red power light goes off) or just appears to turn off? Displaying the black photo in VIVID mode doesn't actually turn my TV off, and after I close the menu, I can still tell the TV is on. When I physically turn the TV off at this point, the screen does really go "black". From the sounds of it, I have at least the infinite black problem.

46G10, Oct 2009 build. 1.28 fw (updated from ?? the first time I turned the TV on...)

The tv is not going to power off but the screen should shut off apparently so I'm not sure you have the issue. If you cycle through various settings Custom etc. when engaging Vivid the screen should shut off I think. Of course mine does not. I'm starting to wonder why the infinite blacks are working on the S1 but not the G10's & yet they share the same panel. Perhaps the different series have different voltage settings for some reason.
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post #3256 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:00 AM
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The problem with my vivid mode is now that since the Black level has risen, so has phosphorescence, so I can see a ghost image of what was on before. But yeah, my panel does shut off.

I have a 58S1
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post #3257 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:05 AM
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so if IB is working, I should be able to show the black slide in VIVID mode, turn power to the TV off at that point and not be able to tell the difference on the screen between the set being off and being in "Infinite black"?
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post #3258 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Bonesdad View Post

so if IB is working, I should be able to show the black slide in VIVID mode, turn power to me TV off at that point and not be able to tell the difference on the screen between the set being off and being in "Infinite black"?

Correct
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post #3259 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

The problem with my vivid mode is now that since the Black level has risen, so has phosphorescence, so I can see a ghost image of what was on before. But yeah, my panel does shut off.

oh, then we could deduct that:

A non working Infinite Black unit doesn't necessarily mean you'll have the double black or IR problem. The DB, IR problems seem to go hand in hand but not so with the IB problem. Thats good to know as I may not have the DB/IR problem at all but who knows what the future holds.
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post #3260 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Correct

Really? Shutting the tv power off is the way to see if the panel is shutting off in Vivid or not?
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post #3261 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Camster View Post

Really? Shutting the tv power off is the way to see if the panel is shutting off in Vivid or not?

If it were working, it would be VERY obvious. There wouldn't be any doubts. Like at the beginning of movies, where credits fade in/out, the TV will visibly flash off and on.
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post #3262 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

If it were working, it would be VERY obvious. There wouldn't be any doubts. Like at the beginning of movies, where credits fade in/out, the TV will visibly flash off and on.

Okay I'll do that in the dark tonight & see if the set still has residual glow too.
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post #3263 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:15 AM
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Okay I'll do that in the dark tonight & see if the set still has residual glow too.

Yeah, and it seems to go from my risen black, down a shade to my orignal blacks, and then completely off. Really aggravating.
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post #3264 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:17 AM
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I have a TH-46PZ800U (11G panel) that's just under a year old. As of this morning, it has 3,960 hours on it with 443 cycles (my wife keeps it on all day) and I've noticed some graying of the black bars. It does glow a bit at night, which is how I noticed this characteristic several months back. While it has lightened a bit, its certainly not doubled the black level and, even in dark scenes, it still looks really good. My DLP and LCD aren't even close, both having much lighter black levels. Even so, I did email Panasonic since the year warranty is almost up. If a firmware fix can bring back a little of the former black level performance, I'd like to get in on it. It's been 4 days now with no answer back, so I guess they're swamped right now.

Unfortunately this infinite black level side issue has taken this thread off topic. Anyone just coming in to this thread now will think that is the problem. Maybe another thread for that issue should be opened? Just a suggestion.
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post #3265 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:20 AM
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Not to get too off topic, but those of us who are just now speaking up about also having the black level rise issue should be contacting panasonic and establishing a case both for our own benefit (either in the event that a solution is found or that we receive some form of compensation) and for the benefit of the community (upping the total number of afflicted customers to further bring attention to the issue).

When one of us contacts the company and describes the issue, Panasonic may offer to send out a tech. In that event, should we be accepting the offer? If yes, is it an issue that we have modified the service menu for calibration purposes and/or hours checking?

I (and I'm sure others as well) don't want to get flak from a tech saying that my warranty is void if they come to "service" my set and see that I've been tinkering to improve the picture quality from its originally substandard level.

Thanks everyone for helping bring this into the spotlight. Truly disappointing, unacceptable and discrediting.
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post #3266 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VA_DaveB View Post


Unfortunately this infinite black level side issue has taken this thread off topic. Anyone just coming in to this thread now will think that is the problem. Maybe another thread for that issue should be opened? Just a suggestion.

Perhaps but it could be a link to how to diagnose the black level issue is my thoughts. But maybe a new thread could be a good idea I agree.
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post #3267 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

When you say "dimmer over time" it sounds like you are referencing the brightness lifetime (e.g. 100,000 hours)?

If so, IMO that is not the case. The statement by Panasonic describes almost exactly what is in the patent. The gas becomes more difficult to discharge over time and if the voltage is not increased, the gas will not discharge at all and the pixel will misfire. The unwanted side effect is that the higher voltage also increases the background light emission (black level).

So, does that apply to Samsung and Pioneers sets also? I imagine that the gas becomes more difficult to discharge in those panels in the same manner, or do they have some other way around the problem?

Also, since Panasonic has programmed in a periodic voltage increase, does that also increase the energy consumption level by much, or is it just a very insignificant amount?
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post #3268 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by khkg View Post

I'm not entirely clear on the panel generations, but the blacks on my 50PX80U are at least twice as bright. It happened about 6 months and around 1000 hours in. This was about 8 months ago and it has been driving me nuts ever since.

I believe this occurred with my 50PX60U. Do I have measurements to back up my claim? No, but I don't need a light meter to tell me that my blacks are obviously brighter than when I first bought the set.

I haven't been in the service menu for awhile - is there some way to reset the hours and "trick" the panel so the drive voltages revert to lower levels?
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post #3269 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:32 AM
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Purchased my first HDTV in Nov2009 -- a 46S1 with a Sept09 build date and 700 hours of use (checked last week). There is no noticeable change in black to my eye and the infinite black works (I checked this last night in two ways -- first via an HDMI input with a powered off bluray and second with a open HDMI input). In both cases the screen behaved as expected in Vivid mode the instant I removed the user menu from the screen.

My wife and I liked the HDTV experience so much that we purchased a second plasma when a great deal came up on a 42PX80U (this is a 2008, 720P TV). I also checked the infinite black feature on this TV. To my surprise it also worked. In this case it did not kick in the instant I left the user menu -- it took about 10 seconds. For what it is worth, the TV is a Nov2008 build with about 300 hours and to my eye a great picture.
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post #3270 of 11262 Old 02-06-2010, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by AVSman View Post

I believe this occurred with my 50PX60U. Do I have measurements to back up my claim? No, but I don't need a light meter to tell me that my blacks are obviously brighter than when I first bought the set.

I haven't been in the service menu for awhile - is there some way to reset the hours and "trick" the panel so the drive voltages revert to lower levels?

If Xrox's explanation about why a periodic voltage increase is required, and I have no reason to doubt him, the last thing you would want to do, is trick the system in that manner. He explained that the gas becomes harder and harder to ignite, unless the voltage is increased. Were you able to trick the system into thinking that it should fire a voltage level, as if the set had no hours on it, the gas in your set would still have a lot of hours on it, and might not turn on the pixels.
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