Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 112 - AVS Forum
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight?
VA_DaveB's Avatar VA_DaveB 09:20 PM 02-06-2010
As I said earlier, this has now become an infinite black thread and should be closed. Regardless that you all think it's related, the focus of the thead is gone and therefore it's potential influence on getting Panasonic to fix the graying issue is now lost. Nobody should care about the infinite black since it was only a marketing gimic, it's the graying panel that matter.

LarryInRI's Avatar LarryInRI 09:42 PM 02-06-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA_DaveB View Post

As I said earlier, this has now become an infinite black thread and should be closed. Regardless that you all think it's related, the focus of the thead is gone and therefore it's potential influence on getting Panasonic to fix the graying issue is now lost. Nobody should care about the infinite black since it was only a marketing gimic, it's the graying panel that matter.


As far as the focus on 'infinite black' by itself, I agree.

However, if there is a connection between an increase in no-signal plasma voltage excitation which results in higher no-signal black levels, then the loss of the 'infinite black' feature may be a way to present reproducible engineering evidence of a problem.

To put it another way: If the increase in black level is caused by an overly aggressive increase in voltage and if the circuit that senses signal voltage to control the 'infinite black' feature is at a point in the signal flow whereby that overly aggressive voltage also is sensed and defeats the feature, then a technical case can be made to link the two.


Too technical for this thread? Maybe.

Larry
Bdemers's Avatar Bdemers 10:26 PM 02-06-2010
^^^

+1

Well put Larry.
dlplover's Avatar dlplover 10:28 PM 02-06-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA_DaveB View Post

As I said earlier, this has now become an infinite black thread and should be closed. Regardless that you all think it's related, the focus of the thead is gone and therefore it's potential influence on getting Panasonic to fix the graying issue is now lost. Nobody should care about the infinite black since it was only a marketing gimic, it's the graying panel that matter.

Secretly work for Panasonic? While the IB may or may not be related to the black doubling (it sounds plausible enough until discounted), closing the thread certainly would be about 10,000 times worse than discussing what may be a related issue either causing or caused by the black doubling. The only way that Panasonic will do something is if people keep pressure on them. Closing a thread is more or less censorship to prevent further complaints. The Chinese and Iranian governments are very good at this. That's the beauty of living in a free country - we can complain about things in the hopes of forcing those responsible to rectify the situation.
BatKing's Avatar BatKing 11:02 PM 02-06-2010
Hi everyone,

I have been following this thread over a month now. while I am worrying my 65V10 will have the black level problem (currently < 300 hours and NO problem yet) I went to Best Buy for the WDTV live today.

there were 65V10, 63B550, 151FD, UN55B8500 and tons of other flat panel on displays. they all feed with some kind of movie trail and have the black bars on top and bottom of the screen. When no doubt the 151FD and B8500 have the best black on the black bars to my eye, it seems the LED B8500 has better black than the Kuro 151FD. However, the 65V10 still wins the 3rd place to my eye and is way better than the 63B550. the gap of the Black level between the 151FD and 65V10 is noticeable but not by much. However the difference between the 65V10 and 63B550 is huge.

Maybe this black level problem really doesn't affect EVERY 12G panasonic plasma? one thing tho, I don't know how new is the 65V10, the TV stand have a 65V10 since 2 months ago when I was shopping my TV but I don't know if it was replaced with a new 65V10 within last 2 month.
Gov's Avatar Gov 11:50 PM 02-06-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

As far as the focus on 'infinite black' by itself, I agree.

However, if there is a connection between an increase in no-signal plasma voltage excitation which results in higher no-signal black levels, then the loss of the 'infinite black' feature may be a way to present reproducible engineering evidence of a problem.

To put it another way: If the increase in black level is caused by an overly aggressive increase in voltage and if the circuit that senses signal voltage to control the 'infinite black' feature is at a point in the signal flow whereby that overly aggressive voltage also is sensed and defeats the feature, then a technical case can be made to link the two.


Too technical for this thread? Maybe.

Larry


Yes, infinate black is worth the discussion at the moment because it may tie into this.
What I cannot understand is why my "infinate black" works one minute and the next it doesn't kick in. I am certain that I do not have elevated blacks to my eyes.
Like I said earlier this is a BS feature to me because I do not use vivid mode, but none the less I would like to know why its flaky.
daMaster's Avatar daMaster 12:30 AM 02-07-2010
I sent an email to Panasonic Canada and got a response within 12 hours. Here's what they said:

Quote:


Thank you for your e-mail. At the request of our Consumer Quality Assurance Group, we ask that you please provide us with the following additional information:



1. What is the serial number of your set?

2. What is your complete address, including postal code and telephone number?

3. What was the exact date of purchase?

4. What is the name, address and phone number of your selling dealer?



Please be advised that Panasonic Canada Inc. is aware of the postings on the internet whereby customers have reported the TV's black level appears to have become greyer and/or the measurements have changed from their original measurements. Our factory and Quality Assurance Group will be investigating these reports, and once we have additional information from them we will advise you via return e-mail.


daMaster's Avatar daMaster 12:40 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by panabolic View Post

Woah! Thanks for the quantitative proof.

What now? Can this sort of thing be fixed in firmware where it's panel degradation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrift02 View Post

Which model do you have? I guess this would upset me if I put down a load of money shooting for Kuro blacks, but a black level of 0.015 isn't bad. My S1 gives me readings of about 0.012-0.013 and it has acceptable blacks (always has been at this level).

Also, did you insure this was your first reading (as in you hadn't been fooling around with window patterns)? IR buildup from the window pattern can significantly affect 0IRE readings. I have measured 0.02+ after significant measuring and IR.

I posted my model and ColorHCFR snapshot earlier in the thread, but this thread is getting so much movement that posts are getting lost in the shuffle.

It's a 58" PZ800U, used solely in THX mode, calibrated very early on after a 100 hour break-in period. I did calibrations and measurements at the following intervals:
@200 hrs: 0.008 ftL
@537 hrs: 0.014 ftL
@802 hrs: 0.015 ftL

I'm currently at 948 hours. I bet if I measure after 1000 hours it'll be 0.024 ftL. That's Samsung A550 levels... ugh!
pochoboy's Avatar pochoboy 12:48 AM 02-07-2010
I give up! hahahaha, My Infinite Black is working now! Maybe you need to warm up the set for an hour or so, hahahaha, because after watching SDTV for an hour it works everytime that I tested it.

I'm a happy camper for now
kotlec's Avatar kotlec 02:32 AM 02-07-2010
As I can folow , we have different variations of IB and DB problems relations there. And I hardly believe if they have to do something with each other (it still can be though). IB is more of logical signal recognition problem. When signal is recognised as total black , IB kicks in.
Now I wonder why startup procedure isnt folowed anymore. I mean scren sticking with grey instead of going one meore step to blacker. May be this can be better indicator ? Or possiblly both of them can be connected in some way ? I have got rid of my pannel and cant check it anymore, but are interested how this DB will be resolwed. No more Panny before that will happen.
goneten's Avatar goneten 03:20 AM 02-07-2010
A question. I'm thinking of buying the 50" S10 (full HD). Not sure what the equivalent model is in the US. Am I going to have the same issues with black levels ?

Regards,
paulr2006's Avatar paulr2006 03:57 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

A question. I'm thinking of buying the 50" S10 (full HD). Not sure what the equivalent model is in the US. Am I going to have the same issues with black levels ?

Regards,

If Panasonic's statement to Cnet is correct then the answer is "very possibly" however since not every 12g model is currently exhibiting this issue (or lots of people have not noticed it) then it's truly hard to say I have a UK V10 model that has the problem & the initial reaction from Panasonic was that UK sets have different spec. to the US ones & are not affected! There are a few of us over in the UK who are affected & have been discussing it over on AVForums.com & Panasonic have now admitted it is being investigated & as part of this investigation I have agreed for my 50V10 to go back to the manufacturing facility for in depth investigation. I guess we will all just have to wait & see what happens when their engineers have finished looking into it.

I have to say there is only a small group of us in the UK who have this issue compared to thousands sold, it might be therefore a manufacturing fault with just some sets.
dead pixel's Avatar dead pixel 04:11 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

A question. I'm thinking of buying the 50" S10 (full HD). Not sure what the equivalent model is in the US. Am I going to have the same issues with black levels ?

Regards,

I believe the equivalent US model may be the U series, however I'm not 100% sure. The European S10 is not a NeoPdp panel and it only delivers 900 lines of motion resolution compared to 1080 lines for NeoPdp panels.

In any case ALL product lines from Australia all the way to Argentina are affected. This is certainly NOT a localized issue however not every set has the problem so its a gamble. If you want to know specifically I've read in German hi-fi forums that the TX-50S10E does have these issues, I was interested in that model. Of course that was before Panasonic issued their statement.
goneten's Avatar goneten 04:21 AM 02-07-2010
Guys, thanks for the comments. I assumed that these issues were isolated with some of the models, but it really is a gamble. The S10 may or may not fall victim to these issues, but I don't think I'm willing to take that chance.

What concerns me is Panasonics unwillingness to find a solution to this issue. I think I read somewhere that Panasonic claimed these contrast issues were normal, to prolong the life of the set. Which is complete BS. I can't see them not rectifying these issues given their large fan base and reputation. Otherwise it would be virtual suicide for them as a company.

Regards,
donnymac51's Avatar donnymac51 04:31 AM 02-07-2010
If they are going to try and sweep this black issue under the rug then our only recourse is to push the infinite black issue. It along with the IR was the only way I could get them to send a tech to check out my set. He will be here Tues.
jack2's Avatar jack2 04:36 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulr2006 View Post

There are a few of us over in the UK who are affected & have been discussing it over on AVForums.com & Panasonic have now admitted it is being investigated & as part of this investigation I have agreed for my 50V10 to go back to the manufacturing facility for in depth investigation. I guess we will all just have to wait & see what happens when their engineers have finished looking into it.

Was it before or after Panasonic made that statement to CNET that someone at the company suggested having your V10 sent back to the facility for testing?
goneten's Avatar goneten 04:45 AM 02-07-2010
Forgive my ignorance but what is this 'infinite black issue' and how will it help us ? Thanks again.

Regards,
adrift02's Avatar adrift02 04:47 AM 02-07-2010
Hm, here is a measurement of my Gf's step-dad's TH-C50FD18 (a 2008 warehouse model, supposedly most like the PZ80U).

It had around 1500+ hours on it.

0.017-0.018

I still gotta finish calibrating it (had to leave in the middle of it), so I'll take a closer look when I do.

 

Report.zip 4.1884765625k . file
Attached: Report.zip (4.2 KB) 
kotlec's Avatar kotlec 04:50 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Forgive my ignorance but what is this 'infinite black issue' and how will it help us ? Thanks again.

Regards,

Read few pages backwards.
Regards
Panaman88's Avatar Panaman88 04:52 AM 02-07-2010
Since I am not ffected at the moment. I am curious as to what the future holds for PQ if I ever do happen to get effected.

Would anyone be interested in showing actual screenshots from the effected sets with actually source material? Blu-ray, HDTV, etc.

I know it won't justify what the picture truly looks like, but maybe some of us can get a general idea.
paulr2006's Avatar paulr2006 05:59 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2 View Post

Was it before or after Panasonic made that statement to CNET that someone at the company suggested having your V10 sent back to the facility for testing?

After the statement I might be wrong but I feel that Panasonic rushed out a statement to try & quell the issue to give them a little breathing space to look into it. However I think I would sack the PR person who wrote the statement as I feel they have shot themselves in the foot! It would have made a lot more sense to issue a statement simply saying they were researching it fully!
wwnaser's Avatar wwnaser 06:52 AM 02-07-2010
I had a question. Which of the following has better black level and PQ?
A: panasonic plasma 50V10 which has been affected (with 0.024 fl)
B: samsung led b7000
C: samsung lcd b650
curly21029's Avatar curly21029 07:06 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwnaser View Post

I had a question. Which of the following has better black level and PQ?
A: panasonic plasma 50V10 which has been affected (with 0.024 fl)
B: samsung led b7000
C: samsung lcd b650

Out of the 3, I would go with the B650 at this point. The Samsung LEDs (besides the 8500 series) have really aggravating fluctuating contrast. Toning down this feature kills the set's MLL.

If the V10 looks anything like my affected G10 then I can't recommend it. It's not the blacks specifically that bother me, but everything else that it dictates. The picture looks extremely soft and undetailed with no ambient light. Even with the lights on it pales in comparison to a properly working set. And those dark scenes.... ugh.
bobbvis's Avatar bobbvis 07:12 AM 02-07-2010
For those of you who are getting horrible performance from your sets.(black levels above 0.020, bad IR etc.) Is it possible you have defective PANELS that don't perform correctly when the voltage adjusts? I remeber someone posting a new "a-board" solved the problem temporarily, then it resurfaced. Would a new a-board have the original factory drive voltage settings on it, restoring black levels. Then the adjustments kicked in and ruined the blacks again. See what I'm asking? Maybe there's a bad batch of panels out there. Not bad firmware. I would think bad firmware would fubar everyones sets equally, whereas a bad batch of hardware might give us what we seem to have here. Performance issues all over the map. Just thinking out loud. I'm putting on my nomex jacket now. Fire away.
Camster's Avatar Camster 07:20 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbvis View Post

For those of you who are getting horrible performance from your sets.(black levels above 0.020, bad IR etc.) Is it possible you have defective PANELS that don't perform correctly when the voltage adjusts? I remeber someone posting a new "a-board" solved the problem temporarily, then it resurfaced. Would a new a-board have the original factory drive voltage settings on it, restoring black levels. Then the adjustments kicked in and ruined the blacks again. See what I'm asking? Maybe there's a bad batch of panels out there. Not bad firmware. I would think bad firmware would fubar everyones sets equally, whereas a bad batch of hardware might give us what we seem to have here. Performance issues all over the map. Just thinking out loud. I'm putting on my nomex jacket now. Fire away.

This is quite possible. I believe one poster had the A Board & the panel replaced (I can't recall for sure) & I'm not sure if his issue has returned or not. I thought it had not returned yet though. I mean to me it's the parts on the fringe of the bell curve that will fail first.
RickD1225's Avatar RickD1225 07:22 AM 02-07-2010
I have a 65V10 Aug build date. Never had the THX bug. I checked the Vivid Infinite Black and it does work on my panel, 897 hours in. My black levels are not great, but acceptable to me. Measured at .011 at about 50 hrs. and 012 when measured at about 500 hrs. DO I wish they were better, yes. Would I pay an extra $2500 or more and get 5" less diagonal to get Kuro blacks, NO.
dlplover's Avatar dlplover 07:23 AM 02-07-2010
Just a thought, but maybe it's actually not the panels, but possibly the A-boards that are causing it? If there's a large enough number of defective boards then it's entirely conceivable that when they replaced his board they replaced it with a defective one instead of a good one.
ClarkeBar's Avatar ClarkeBar 07:23 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwnaser View Post

I had a question. Which of the following has better black level and PQ?
A: panasonic plasma 50V10 which has been affected (with 0.024 fl)
B: samsung led b7000
C: samsung lcd b650

I agree with curly. [[Edit] Didn't notice the B650 in question was labeled LCD]. Am strongly considering the 58B650 Plasma now that Panny is dropping the ball. The price for the extra 4 inches over the 54V10 doesn't hurt either since it's still lower by a good bit. Chad B has reviewed both the newer LED series and the 550/650 series and says they are great performers in most important respects. Would like to know if Sammy is suffering from diminishing black levels ... and if not, why? Haven't heard anything out there like that, only some percentage with directional buzz.
djbrettb's Avatar djbrettb 07:39 AM 02-07-2010
Guys, our issue was discussed on Friday's "Buzz Out Loud"! http://bol.cnet.com

Around 17:50 into the show. Unfortunately the hosts don't really know what they're talking about, but more exposure is always great.
dead pixel's Avatar dead pixel 07:47 AM 02-07-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwnaser View Post

I had a question. Which of the following has better black level and PQ?
A: panasonic plasma 50V10 which has been affected (with 0.024 fl)
B: samsung led b7000
C: samsung lcd b650

I would personally opt for the B750 (with this latest Panny debacle that is what I'm looking at right now). With the B750 you're more likely to get an S-PVA panel whereas with the B650 you may end up with a Chi Mei MVA panel.

You probably will have a hard time noticing the difference between 120 and 240hz with most content because the source material will be heavily blurred from camera exposure time but you would notice with CGI films.
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