Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 115 - AVS Forum
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post #3421 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

They could take a lesson from the Jeans Industry, and start charging a premium for Pre-Faded Displays.

LOL!!!, good one!

I just want to add a little perspective on those that are ready to jump ship to Samsung. I had to take my Hitachi in for repair and the gentleman working there said that many of the Samsungs are dead out of the box, and he repairs a lot of them. My brothers' friend got a big phat 58" around Christmas and I could here the buzz that is often talked about. I don't know about everyone else, but that would grind on my nerves fast. My old PS3 60GIG constantly fires up the fans when, and when I'm trying to listen to something at a low volume it ruins the experience. There are also sites dedicating to documenting all of the problems with Samsung TVs.

I was thinking off-hand that maybe it would be good to take a very hard informal survey, separating into those that can measure with a light meter, and hours, then a standardized settings and a given still of a certain scene in a movie; called it the "Dark Knight Shot", that would visually provide proof of the problem. In there somewhere can be the person that says they notice the difference; but you have to understand that that is simple a matter of opinion and really not measurable, and that won't be enough to get a lot of TV's fixed, hard data will. I don't have this problem, but we're all in this together and I wouldn't wish for anyone to pay $1000-$3500 on something that performs for 1-6 months before being no better than their previous model.
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post #3422 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

One thing I noticed is that neither Frys nor BB in my area has any S1/G10/V10 models on the floor (for long long time) except for 58 and 65" v10's in the BB Magnolia. It seemed like someone doesn't want to put them on displays for some reason. Maybe it has to do the heavy green push and possible black rise.

Maybe they don't have many in stock. Or maybe it is because they are using them in the calibration demo like mine does.

Best buy claiming to have problems is like a hooker calling someone a slut.
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post #3423 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by paulr2006 View Post

Something tells me you will not be on your own in jumping the Panasonic ship, this has been handled very poorly indeed. I'm guessing the number crunchers at Panasonic are calling the shots due to the cost of implementing a fix. Hope they factor in people like yourself! personally I feel it will cost the brand a fortune & could take years to regain trust


Another thing to keep in perspective, if you were a huge company, would you want to readily admit before the Super Bowl(today) that you have faulty sets out there; Hell No!! That's damage control and their trying to minimize it during a potential huge buying time; hopefully they'll come down to Earth after the super bowl and before their new models come out, because if they don't, that would be a grave decision on their part.
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post #3424 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 11:51 AM
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Just throwing this out there...is it possible that those who ran break-in slides with Contrast at 100 have aged their panels quicker and THAT is the reason the black levels are rising prematurely?

There is so much discrepancy between the number of hours and when black level rise is noticed that perhaps the rise is not based on time but rather something internal that senses how "aged" the phosphors are?

Any thoughts?

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post #3425 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 11:52 AM
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Oh boy, Scott Wilkinson editor of UltimateAV and Home Theater mag just talked about this Panasonic problem on Leo Laporte's Tech show minutes ago. He described the issue and is proposing a test with Panasonic to get to the bottom of the issue. I doubt the company will participate though.

This is seriously snowballing.
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post #3426 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

Oh boy, Scott Wilkinson editor of UltimateAV and Home Theater mag just talked about this Panasonic problem on Leo Laporte's Tech show minutes ago. He described the issue and is proposing a test with Panasonic to get to the bottom of the issue. I doubt the company will participate though.

This is seriously snowballing.

What sort of test did he propose?
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post #3427 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

Oh boy, Scott Wilkinson editor of UltimateAV and Home Theater mag just talked about this Panasonic problem on Leo Laporte's Tech show minutes ago. He described the issue and is proposing a test with Panasonic to get to the bottom of the issue. I doubt the company will participate though.

This is seriously snowballing.

audio or video to it?
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post #3428 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

Another thing to keep in perspective, if you were a huge company, would you want to readily admit before the Super Bowl(today) that you have faulty sets out there; Hell No!! That's damage control and their trying to minimize it during a potential huge buying time; hopefully they'll come down to Earth after the super bowl and before their new models come out, because if they don't, that would be a grave decision on their part.

Also the Winter Olympics are just around the corner. Lots of people, especially women, love to watch the Ice Skating and Ice Dancing events.

However; if that was their thinking, then they should have just left their original response: "we are looking into it" hang out there, instead of saying that the power acceleration was set too aggressively, and now saying that the case is closed, and we are not going to do anything about it.
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post #3429 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:01 PM
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It's crazy how a panel's greatest strength can become it's greatest weakness. That's like saying color accuracy gets less accurate on a Samsung plasma over time. LOL
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post #3430 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

Oh boy, Scott Wilkinson editor of UltimateAV and Home Theater mag just talked about this Panasonic problem on Leo Laporte's Tech show minutes ago. He described the issue and is proposing a test with Panasonic to get to the bottom of the issue. I doubt the company will participate though.

This is seriously snowballing.

For both consumer AND Panasonic's sake, I hope they do get to the bottom of this. Until they come out with a fix or quantify the expected MLL rise clearly so perspective buyers know what to expect, every 11G/12G and 13G panel reviews should have a HUGE asterisk. Like Cnet's DK said, a reviewer simply cannot properly access the Panny plasma TV performance currently knowing the black level will likely rise substantially by unknown margin only after 100 or 1000 hrs.
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post #3431 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

Another thing to keep in perspective, if you were a huge company, would you want to readily admit before the Super Bowl(today) that you have faulty sets out there; Hell No!!

Agreed. Huge buying time...

It will be interesting to see if:

a) The voltages or a change can EVEN BE implimented through firmware

b) The problem is really reduced in the 2010 models. It just sounds like the voltage increases are made in smaller doses and more often... so the change simply isn't as noticable each time it happens... but the net effect is the same at a given hours of "system-on" time.

Dana Abboud in the house!
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post #3432 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Also the Winter Olympics are just around the corner. Lots of people, especially women, love to watch the Ice Skating and Ice Dancing events.

However; if that was their thinking, then they should have just left their original response: "we are looking into it" hang out there, instead of saying that the power acceleration was set too aggressively, and now saying that the case is closed, and we are not going to do anything about it.


Yeah, either way, whoever is in their PR office might be getting his packing papers.
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post #3433 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:12 PM
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If I was a reviewer & found out that the sets were set up optimally in a period where a review would occur & no where else I'd be ticked. What needs to happen with tv's is long term evaluations like some reviewers do with cars. It would help limit cherry picking for good reviews.

I hope the proposed test can get to the bottom of this. I'm curious what it is too.
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post #3434 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Camster View Post

If I was a reviewer & found out that the sets were set up optimally in a period where a review would occur & no where else I'd be ticked. What needs to happen with tv's is long term evaluations like some reviewers do with cars. It would help limit cherry picking for good reviews.

I hope the proposed test can get to the bottom of this. I'm curious what it is too.

Camster,

have you tried leaving/using your set on for an hour or so then trying the IB test? My unit passed the IB test after an hour of use(warmed up), prior to this I only tried the IB test on power up of the unit(cold state) in which it didn't work.
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post #3435 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

Camster,

have you tried leaving/using your set on for an hour or so then trying the IB test? My unit passed the IB test after an hour of use(warmed up), prior to this I only tried the IB test on power up of the unit(cold state) in which it didn't work.

No I haven't yet but I will. I'm pretty sure my set was on for a while when I did it but I'm not sure. I'll do it in the dark & report back.
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post #3436 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

Just throwing this out there...is it possible that those who ran break-in slides with Contrast at 100 have aged their panels quicker and THAT is the reason the black levels are rising prematurely?

There is so much discrepancy between the number of hours and when black level rise is noticed that perhaps the rise is not based on time but rather something internal that senses how "aged" the phosphors are?

Any thoughts?

Shouldn't it be the opposite? The way I understand it is that panny increases the voltage in anticipation of plasma cells aging. So if the panel becomes lighter wouldn't it be because the increased voltage happened too soon and that the plasma cell hasn't "deteriorated" enough? So I would think that people who aged their panels quicker would actually be less affected by the increased voltage?
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post #3437 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

Oh boy, Scott Wilkinson editor of UltimateAV and Home Theater mag just talked about this Panasonic problem on Leo Laporte's Tech show minutes ago. He described the issue and is proposing a test with Panasonic to get to the bottom of the issue. I doubt the company will participate though.

This is seriously snowballing.

how exactly would he test the issue though?

he would have to pick up a set from someone who is known to have severe changes to their black levels.

It's entirely unproven if all sets are affected the same. Perhaps some panels/hardware are being affected more drastically than others in terms of the voltage changes.

That's what I don't get with Panasonic. They aren't even open to the idea that a small number of sets may be behaving incorrectly. And now forum members are being stonewalled by the CSRs with that same CNET reply. I feel really bad for people who are legitimately affected as that reply to CNET only made this issue more difficult to get resolved.
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post #3438 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

"Admitted"! What the hell are you talking about. He reported that he could not get the infinite black to work, and then he reported back that it had started to work, and he speculated.(That is right; just speculated) that letting the set warm up for an hour, might have something to do with it.

It might also be a case of the worst of all problems. One that is intermittent, and very hard to detect by service technicians.

He had the problem for a while, and then he said it finally started working. Sound far more like a real intermittent problem, to me.

Someone's a little high strung....

I'm saying that we're getting a lot of drive by postings at this point and not everyone has all the correct information to discern the proper conclusion. My point is, for all of the complaints, we're probably not going to get proper follow-up which just leads to more misinformation and hysteria.
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post #3439 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

I had it with BB years ago. Panasonic has been a factastic company overall. They may have screwed us a bit here. I don't think they can fix this easily as each tv varies a bit on the blacks. I would love some user adustable drive voltages or even better.. +- offsets from panny's choosen values.

Hi all, I was an "Engineering Support" software engineer for 10 years. My job was to investigate s/w bugs ... design a solution ... and do final test of the s/w patch.

IF this is accurately identified as purely a VOLTAGE DRIVE issue, then I would propose the following.

I would guess (an educated guess tho) that a design change to simply provide the owner a sliding menu of ramping drive voltage adjustments would take :

- 3 days: investigation of s/w modules
- 3-5 days: design change and documentation
- 3 days: test and deliver patch

I'd like to stress that this isn't the most elegant fix or transparent fix for the user-owner ... ie. the owner would have play with the settings from the main picture menu (ie NOT the service menu) ... However, perhaps a single hard coded fix wouldn't correct all the variation from panel to panel anyways.

This solution would likely involve very few engineering resources and PACIFY a HUGE portion of the unhappy customers ... present and future. Panny would be seen to be doing SOMETHING at least.

This would be the end of the public storm ... why panny doesn't do something this simple is beyond me.

Jls.
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post #3440 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

Someone's a little high strung....

I'm saying that we're getting a lot of drive by postings at this point and not everyone has all the correct information to discern the proper conclusion. My point is, for all of the complaints, we're probably not going to get proper follow-up which just leads to more misinformation and hysteria.


It was the person who started this thread who actually got the problem exposed. Panasonic admitted to Cnet, that they had set the automatic power changes too aggressively. If it was not for this thread, Cnet would never have been informed, and thus able to take it up with the manufacturer.

I see no need to start trying to suppress people posting about their own experiences with the sets that they payed good money for.
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post #3441 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffpoker View Post

Shouldn't it be the opposite? The way I understand it is that panny increases the voltage in anticipation of plasma cells aging. So if the panel becomes lighter wouldn't it be because the increased voltage happened too soon and that the plasma cell hasn't "deteriorated" enough? So I would think that people who aged their panels quicker would actually be less affected by the increased voltage?

Panasonic said the voltage increase happens at a pre-determined time. However, there is no consistency with actual time (according to what everyone is reporting). So the only thing that is different is the actual aging of the phosphors which is determined by time used and intensity of light output. If the aged phosphors are somehow able to trigger the rise in black level, this might explain why some sets show aging at 300 hours and others show nothing at 1000 hours...just a guess

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post #3442 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

It was the person who started this thread who actually got the problem exposed. Panasonic admitted to Cnet, that they had set the automatic power changes too aggressively. If it was not for this thread, Cnet would never have been informed, and thus able to take it up with the manufacturer.

I see no need to start trying to suppress people posting about their own experiences with the sets that they payed good money for.

You like to extrapolate a lot of information that's not there in a post. Nowhere am I saying this thread is useless, nowhere I am saying the original poster is wrong.

Should people be suppressed, of course not, but I don't have to believe every single word I read either.
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post #3443 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

You like to extrapolate a lot of information that's not there in a post. Nowhere am I saying this thread is useless, nowhere I am saying the original poster is wrong.

Should people be suppressed, of course not, but I don't have to believe every single word I read either.

Nor are you the comment whisperer who can sort out for the rest of us, who to believe and not to believe. You appear to want to put yourself into that role. We can decide for ourselves, who to believe or not, just as you can.
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post #3444 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 01:20 PM
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hey, guys thats enough tripping on your EGO's already, it gets us nowhere.

edit: AVS is the last place I'd want to have these common forum type of "who's better than who or who knows more or who got more postings.
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post #3445 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 01:38 PM
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I seriously doubt that the blacks will get better. Stabilize yes, but at what point. My set went from .009ft to .017ftl at 1300hrs and now at over 2100 hrs it is .027. When does it end?
I have emailed David K. at CNET and informed of the Infinite black issue and asked him to also look for that.
I have checked for the "intermittent" infinite black issue a number of time in the last few days. Always when the tv has been on for hours and in black room. It does not work at all on my set when warm, cold wet or dry.

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post #3446 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dana_abboud View Post

Agreed. Huge buying time...

It will be interesting to see if:

a) The voltages or a change can EVEN BE implimented through firmware

b) The problem is really reduced in the 2010 models. It just sounds like the voltage increases are made in smaller doses and more often... so the change simply isn't as noticable each time it happens... but the net effect is the same at a given hours of "system-on" time.

I'm honestly interested in this more than on my current Panny. I haven't seen the issue and I'me well over a 100 hours; I just enjoyed "Inglorious Basterds" last night with no ambient light sources. So far I am still willing to take a chance on the 65VT25, but it'd be nice to get more confirmation that it's truly not going to be an issue. I have a fair understanding of Panasonic's intentions, but I am looking forward to a better explanation of how and why things are implemented as they are.


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Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

edit: AVS is the last place I'd want to have these common forum type of "who's better than who or who knows more or who got more postings.

Agreed.
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post #3447 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

hey, guys thats enough tripping on your EGO's already, it gets us nowhere.

edit: AVS is the last place I'd want to have these common forum type of "who's better than who or who knows more or who got more postings.


Number of postings...?

I'll bet half of mine are repeats of answers to a same few basic questions -- answers for which people seem incapable of searching.

Larry
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post #3448 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana_abboud View Post

Agreed. Huge buying time...

It will be interesting to see if:

a) The voltages or a change can EVEN BE implimented through firmware

b) The problem is really reduced in the 2010 models. It just sounds like the voltage increases are made in smaller doses and more often... so the change simply isn't as noticable each time it happens... but the net effect is the same at a given hours of "system-on" time.

Panny seems to have already confirmed that firmware changes can tweak this problem ... ie. panny just disclosed that the 2010 sets are upping voltage drive gradually ... timed adjustments like this are nearly ALWAYS controlled and monitored by firmware ... I can't think of any other reasonable way to implement this kind of functionality.

jls.
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post #3449 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 02:08 PM
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I think I have the solution to this "black level" problem that people are reporting. I own a 50S1 and have not noticed any change in black level. I have not read this entire thread so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. When the black levels noticeably begin to rise why not switch to Black Level: "Dark" in the UM. After all what is that setting for? Everyone initially sets it to "Light" when the set is new. Maybe as the panel ages it is best to set it to "dark."
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post #3450 of 11217 Old 02-07-2010, 02:14 PM
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I think I have the solution to this "black level" problem that people are reporting. I own a 50S1 and have not noticed any change in black level. I have not read this entire thread so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. When the black levels noticeably begin to rise why not switch to Black Level: "Dark" in the UM. After all what is that setting for? Everyone initially sets it to "Light" when the set is new. Maybe as the panel ages it is best to set it to "dark."

How many hours are on your set?
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