Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 11217 Old 10-20-2009, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cold_fusion View Post

That doesn't make any sense...If your blacks are good in the imaging of the display, why care if the black bars or blank screen black are sub-par? Personally I feel my Panny's imaging still looks really good on HDTV, Blu-ray, and PS3 gaming and the blacks there seem pretty good...I wonder if the displayed imaging blacks are better than the black bar blacks or blank input blacks?

The black bars being super black is very enjoyable to me, they melt into the bezel so you can't even notice them if you try. I observe this on my Pio KRP-500M which has super blacks, especially as compared to my 6 year old panny pro that I replaced (which was a great set). So I can certainly understand why there would be concern in regards to the black bars. I feel for all of you who are having this issue.

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post #332 of 11217 Old 10-20-2009, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

IR goes away ....will this black IR go away too? what if i dont use my tv for 2 weeks ...will the blacks settle down? I dont think soo. Last night i pause the tv on CNN HD and i could see the black type how black should be ( it was perferct black ) , now if i run a black pattern my black glow.... no input blacks glow....bluray movies black bars glow...i dont get it. Its a software issue for sure because the panel can reproduce pure blacks but only on some circumstances . Im done with panasonic and plasma.

What you're describing is a function of your eyes, not the TV. The intra-scene blacks are the same, or worse, than what you seeing on a blank input, there is just too much surrounding light for you to resolve any glow in the blacks.

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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The black level on a PDP may rise with usage due to the same phenomenon that causes black screen IR. A change in the wall charge characteristics or the MgO characteristics will cause a change in the discharge delay and discharge probability.

If delay decreases and probability increases without any change in driving waveform the black level will become brighter.

If delay increases and probability decreases without any change in driving waveform the pixels will misfire

Pioneer KURO is unique in that the black level is generated using space discharge rather than surface discharge which may reduce the rising black level effect IMO. D-Nice can clarify.

Note: Pioneer data shows that after 4 weeks of white screen aging the black level rises about 13% in its 2005 models.

Thanks for the description xrox, that seems like a reasonable explanation for why Panasonic would design a change like this. Is it really necessary to make it a 100% (or even 200%+ in earlier models) increase to avoid those problems though?
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post #333 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 12:05 AM
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I have a 50v10 and I just discovered I am also having the grey blacks. I just took readings with the set off, on without input and at 0% stimulus in each picture mode. One thing I did discover that I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is that if you put a black or 0% stimulus window on vivid mode it is jet black and reads .000. All other picture modes on my set are grayish and range from .012 up to .024. I took the readings with 3 different meters to see what would happen. I used the enhanced spyder3, the C-5 and the i1pro. Of course the readings were a little different for each meter due each having its own accuracies/inaccuracies. My readings were taken in a completely black environment except for the light from my laptop which I had as low as possible and still able to read the screen. Unfortunately I don't have the data from when my set was new. It now has 1325 hours.
As I believe Orta already stated that changing the brightness control had no affect on readings.
In custom mode at 38fl the C5 read between .012, i1pro read .o19 and the S3 read .024. All are elevated compared to what the v10 should be reading which if I remember correctly is around .007/.008.

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post #334 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 04:54 AM
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This could be the most important panasonic thread out there.Very disturbing stuff.Does this kind of thing plague LED and LCD?

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post #335 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mattg3 View Post

This could be the most important panasonic thread out there.Very disturbing stuff.

Whats most disturbing is that 99.9% of all Panny 12g owners will never say boo about this. The other 0.1% are subscribed to this thread. While I hope Panny can fix this through a firmware update, I have little confidence it will allocate the resources needed to do so, especially when so few complain. I have about 200hrs on a 42g10, just waiting for the "time-bomb" to go off.
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post #336 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

In custom mode at 38fl the C5 read between .012, i1pro read .o19 and the S3 read .024. All are elevated compared to what the v10 should be reading which if I remember correctly is around .007/.008.

Hmm. I'm really puzzled as to why/how I'm getting the low readings from both my new 54G10 and older 46G10 with my enhanced Spyder3. I'm also in custom mode, calibrated (actually the 46 is calibrated, the 54 not yet calibrated) and I'm getting readings on no-input screens of about .0024 fL on the 46G10 (which is the same as what I got a few months ago )and a little less on the 54.
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post #337 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

I have a 50v10 and I just discovered I am also having the grey blacks. I just took readings with the set off, on without input and at 0% stimulus in each picture mode. One thing I did discover that I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is that if you put a black or 0% stimulus window on vivid mode it is jet black and reads .000. All other picture modes on my set are grayish and range from .012 up to .024. I took the readings with 3 different meters to see what would happen. I used the enhanced spyder3, the C-5 and the i1pro. Of course the readings were a little different for each meter due each having its own accuracies/inaccuracies. My readings were taken in a completely black environment except for the light from my laptop which I had as low as possible and still able to read the screen. Unfortunately I don't have the data from when my set was new. It now has 1325 hours.
As I believe Orta already stated that changing the brightness control had no affect on readings.
In custom mode at 38fl the C5 read between .012, i1pro read .o19 and the S3 read .024. All are elevated compared to what the v10 should be reading which if I remember correctly is around .007/.008.

Thanks for the measurements Donny. What you're describing with Vivid mode is that feature they call "Infinite Black".

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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Hmm. I'm really puzzled as to why/how I'm getting the low readings from both my new 54G10 and older 46G10 with my enhanced Spyder3. I'm also in custom mode, calibrated (actually the 46 is calibrated, the 54 not yet calibrated) and I'm getting readings on no-input screens of about .0024 fL on the 46G10 (which is the same as what I got a few months ago )and a little less on the 54.

Yea, strange Donny's Spyder was able to get a reading somewhat in line with what would be expected, but yours is spitting out Kuro measures . Donny, are you using HCFR or Calman?
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post #338 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 08:17 AM
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I kinda figured that much. This is when the tv basically shuts off when the screen goes black isn't it? I guess it doesn't pertain to other picture modes

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post #339 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 08:18 AM
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using calman

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post #340 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

Whats most disturbing is that 99.9% of all Panny 12g owners will never say boo about this. The other 0.1% are subscribed to this thread. While I hope Panny can fix this through a firmware update, I have little confidence it will allocate the resources needed to do so, especially when so few complain. I have about 200hrs on a 42g10, just waiting for the "time-bomb" to go off.

Why does it seem that everyone thinks that all electronic problems can be fixed with a firmware update? That is a wrong conception.

To add to what xrox has mentioned, the ongoing problem of deterioration of the MgO protecting layer in surface discharge panels cannot be fixed with software.

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post #341 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Why does it seem that everyone thinks that all electronic problems can be fixed with a firmware update? That is a wrong conception.

To add to what xrox has mentioned, the ongoing problem of deterioration of the MgO protecting layer in surface discharge panels cannot be fixed with software.

Larry

This issue sounds like it its a line of code the firmware to do X (whatever X is) when hours > 300. Doesn't it?
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post #342 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

This issue sounds like it its a line of code the firmware to do X (whatever X is) when hours > 300. Doesn't it?

That is nothing more than speculation by members of this forum. There is no data to support it.

Also, a physical phenomenon like the deterioration of a material (magnesium oxide) cannot be prevented by software.

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post #343 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

That is nothing more than speculation by members of this forum. There is no data to support it.

Also, a physical phenomenon like the deterioration of a material (magnesium oxide) cannot be prevented by software.

Larry

Well lets see, my black levels rose, tech does a part replacement that triggers a full factory reset, blacks go back down. A few weeks later and black levels rise again.... I don't see how there isn't a program in the software that causes this. My blacks are now bright enough to light up the entire room enough to see everything, when the reset occurred I could barely make out the other end of the couch on an all black screen. They used to be Kuro like, no way I can call them that now.

I'll be calling the tech back soon to see if I can get an update...

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post #344 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Well lets see, my black levels rose, tech does a part replacement that triggers a full factory reset, blacks go back down. A few weeks later and black levels rise again.... I don't see how there isn't a program in the software that causes this. My blacks are now bright enough to light up the entire room enough to see everything, when the reset occurred I could barely make out the other end of the couch on an all black screen. They used to be Kuro like, no way I can call them that now.

I'll be calling the tech back soon to see if I can get an update...

No one is questioning what you experienced.

However, there is no hard data that proves, in a reproducible manner, the cause and effect of replacing a board and a temporary change in black level. We don't even know what board was replaced in your TV. Was it a scan board? Was it the power supply board?

Don't take it so personally. Without hard quantifiable data, all is speculation. I repeat that there "is nothing more than speculation by members of this forum. There is no data to support it."

Please, I am not attacking anyone.

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post #345 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 07:37 PM
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[quote=Orta;17391482]What you're describing is a function of your eyes, not the TV. The intra-scene blacks are the same, or worse, than what you seeing on a blank input, there is just too much surrounding light for you to resolve any glow in the blacks.

actually my eyes are still good . I used a magnifier to look at the blacks and i observed that the blacks pattern or no input black has the red,green and blue pixels lighted up not very bright but enough to create the glowing blacks . I look at brand new panny under 200 hr and all the pixels are dark on a black pattern. I am a tech for TWC and i see plasma tvs everyday and all the pannys i have seen have the same problem with the blacks.
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post #346 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

actually my eyes are still good . I used a magnifier to look at the blacks and i observed that the blacks pattern or no input black has the red pixels lighted up. So red,green,blue pixels ( red is lighted, not the blue nor green). I look at brand new panny under 200 hr and all the pixels are dark on a black pattern. I am a tech for TWC and i see plasma tvs everyday and all the pannys i have seen have the same problem

Now that's really interesting, Cristian.

With a black pattern or with no input --all pixels are dark on sets with less than 200 hours and the red pixels are excited on sets with more than 200. Did I understand that correctly?

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post #347 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Well lets see, my black levels rose, tech does a part replacement that triggers a full factory reset, blacks go back down. A few weeks later and black levels rise again.... I don't see how there isn't a program in the software that causes this. My blacks are now bright enough to light up the entire room enough to see everything, when the reset occurred I could barely make out the other end of the couch on an all black screen. They used to be Kuro like, no way I can call them that now.

I'll be calling the tech back soon to see if I can get an update...

Definitely keep pursuing it with the techs as it sounds like you may have stumbled on some way to reproduce it. There doesn't seem to be many others actively talking to Panasonic about it. I think it's still relatively difficult to decide on a specific cause or whether this is a handful of sets. I would just keep pushing Panny to come up with a solution for your specific set and with any luck you at least get a reasonable reply.
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post #348 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 09:19 PM
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Is this a possible problem only isolated to the G10 or has anyone seen this problem on a V10?
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post #349 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 09:40 PM
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That is outstanding - thanks for your persistance. It will be VERY interesting to see what they have to say about this. It will also be interesting to see if they come with equipment to measure actual levels - if they do, please ask them to give you the numbers so you can post it here!

No prob, they will be here in the morning around 11am so guess i will wait and see what the old tech guy says.......and yeah i suspect its going to be interesting......
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post #350 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by erocuroc View Post

So I posted previously that my Panny G10 to my naked eye has shown an increase in the black level since purchase, probably around the 600-700 hour mark. I noticed this while watching a blu-ray movie, and this was before I even knew about this thread (thus not looking for a black level problem). I got a case # from Panny about 2 weeks ago and wasn't able to give them all my info (serial #, etc.) since I was at work, so finally found time to call back today. The person I spoke with was very helpful and he felt that the G10 and V10 should be exhibiting a dark, inky black and there should be absolutely no question as to it's darkness. He said when him and other reps saw the new units when they were first unveiled they were blown away by the black level. I agreed that when I first got my set I couldn't be happier. He understood my frustration, transferred me to a tech, and I now have an appointment scheduled for Oct. 23 for a tech to come check out the t.v. I have to say that the guy I spoke to on the phone was top notch. I asked him if he fielded any other 12G black level calls and he said no, but the units are still new to the marketplace. He also said that while the reviews for the model have been exceptional, the reviews are done on new units, not after 1,000 hours (for example). I was impressed by his candor. I just hope the technician knows what he's doing and doesn't try to explain away the issue. It is real and I want back my original G10 blacks!

BTW, I hope others seeing this problem call Panny and get case #'s and ask for a tech to come out. The more we call, the more Panny knows about the issue and the more techs may be able to figure something out.

Im with you on this one the panny rep i spoke to was top notch as well, but i am worried the tech guy is going to try and shrug it off as something normal in the sets behavior.
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post #351 of 11217 Old 10-21-2009, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

actually my eyes are still good . I used a magnifier to look at the blacks and i observed that the blacks pattern or no input black has the red,green and blue pixels lighted up not very bright but enough to create the glowing blacks . I look at brand new panny under 200 hr and all the pixels are dark on a black pattern. I am a tech for TWC and i see plasma tvs everyday and all the pannys i have seen have the same problem with the blacks.

I was referring to human eyes in general, not just yours lol. I have also noticed that the dithering/activation noise will change depending on how much black or lit content is on screen. I'm not sure it has anything to do with this problem in particular, I always figured it was attributed to the so called "floating blacks" issue.
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post #352 of 11217 Old 10-22-2009, 05:18 AM
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here some pics
LL
LL
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post #353 of 11217 Old 10-22-2009, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Now that's really interesting, Cristian.

With a black pattern or with no input --all pixels are dark on sets with less than 200 hours and the red pixels are excited on sets with more than 200. Did I understand that correctly?

Larry

actually i edit the post saying that all red,green and blue pixels are excited on the black pattern or no input. I don't know how much the pixels should be excited but they are obviously excited enough to create the glowing look
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post #354 of 11217 Old 10-22-2009, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by erocuroc View Post

So I posted previously that my Panny G10 to my naked eye has shown an increase in the black level since purchase, probably around the 600-700 hour mark. I noticed this while watching a blu-ray movie, and this was before I even knew about this thread (thus not looking for a black level problem). I got a case # from Panny about 2 weeks ago and wasn't able to give them all my info (serial #, etc.) since I was at work, so finally found time to call back today. The person I spoke with was very helpful and he felt that the G10 and V10 should be exhibiting a dark, inky black and there should be absolutely no question as to it's darkness. He said when him and other reps saw the new units when they were first unveiled they were blown away by the black level. I agreed that when I first got my set I couldn't be happier. He understood my frustration, transferred me to a tech, and I now have an appointment scheduled for Oct. 23 for a tech to come check out the t.v. I have to say that the guy I spoke to on the phone was top notch. I asked him if he fielded any other 12G black level calls and he said no, but the units are still new to the marketplace. He also said that while the reviews for the model have been exceptional, the reviews are done on new units, not after 1,000 hours (for example). I was impressed by his candor. I just hope the technician knows what he's doing and doesn't try to explain away the issue. It is real and I want back my original G10 blacks!

BTW, I hope others seeing this problem call Panny and get case #'s and ask for a tech to come out. The more we call, the more Panny knows about the issue and the more techs may be able to figure something out.

Wanted to pass along that I had to call and postpone the trip out by the Panasonic tech as I have sudden out of state work obligations. I don't know when I'm going to be able to reschedule at this point, but I will definitely keep you all updated.

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post #355 of 11217 Old 10-23-2009, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

No one is questioning what you experienced.

However, there is no hard data that proves, in a reproducible manner, the cause and effect of replacing a board and a temporary change in black level. We don't even know what board was replaced in your TV. Was it a scan board? Was it the power supply board?

Don't take it so personally. Without hard quantifiable data, all is speculation. I repeat that there "is nothing more than speculation by members of this forum. There is no data to support it."

Please, I am not attacking anyone.

Larry

I've posted it several times in this topic alone that the "A" Board that controls the input connections (HDMI ext...) was what was replaced, something that couldn't have had an effect on picture quality, all it did was fully reset the TV to the factory defaults, including my black levels. (the clock was reset as well)

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post #356 of 11217 Old 10-23-2009, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I've posted it several times in this topic alone that the "A" Board that controls the input connections (HDMI ext...) was what was replaced, something that couldn't have had an effect on picture quality, all it did was fully reset the TV to the factory defaults, including my black levels. (the clock was reset as well)

Other than the fact that you had a faulty svideo port, which means the A board was faulty? There's no way that could have an effect? ...
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post #357 of 11217 Old 10-23-2009, 08:58 AM
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Other than the fact that you had a faulty svideo port, which means the A board was faulty? There's no way that could have an effect? ...

The S-Video input was loose, not broken, (went black and white randomly) so he replaced it just to be able to do something (I think he did it to force the reset, because he insisted on doing it even though I never use the input) I don't see how it could have affected anything since it didn't control anything picture wise....

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post #358 of 11217 Old 10-23-2009, 10:17 AM
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The S-Video input was loose, not broken, (went black and white randomly) so he replaced it just to be able to do something (I think he did it to force the reset, because he insisted on doing it even though I never use the input) I don't see how it could have affected anything since it didn't control anything picture wise....

It is at least an indication that your board had problems. Was it loose because the solder wasn't hot enough or the surface wasn't prepared to it to stick? Who knows. The point is that a flaw in the board indicates something went wrong, and though I don't have access to Panasonic's data on RMA equipment and problem frequency, it's generally safe to assume the existence of one flaw increases the likelihood of subsequent flaws.
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post #359 of 11217 Old 10-23-2009, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by nweibley View Post

It is at least an indication that your board had problems. Was it loose because the solder wasn't hot enough or the surface wasn't prepared to it to stick? Who knows. The point is that a flaw in the board indicates something went wrong, and though I don't have access to Panasonic's data on RMA equipment and problem frequency, it's generally safe to assume the existence of one flaw increases the likelihood of subsequent flaws.

If the board was the problem, then why did my black levels go back up again once I got a few weeks of time on it?

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post #360 of 11217 Old 10-23-2009, 10:59 AM
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I'd think the "300 hours" thing is more of a bug, then a programmed feature.
If it was an internal feature (say to help longevity of the phosphors), Panasonic reps would know about it.

I'd say its a hard-to-find bug like a jiffy counter that rolls and bleeds bits into another variable field.

Aka after 300 hrs a jiffy counter rolls to 6 places and inadvertantly writing to an internal brightness register that suddenly gets 256 added to it.

Kinda bug. Hopefuly thats it, as it can generally be fixed with firmware.

But lets remember this is analog too. Maybe there's some noise getting added as the hardware ages.
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