Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 121 - AVS Forum
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post #3601 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 08:40 PM
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http://news.cnet.com/8601-17938_105-...ag=mncol;tback

They are going to lose a lot of customers if they don't address this quickly and properly.

Btw, aftxn (Ralph / rrod33) is not the only one complaining. I think its good for people to complain when there is a problem. I'm not saying they way he talked with Karen was the way to go about it. Ralph - you should also be fair in your review and say something good about the set (if you have not already). So that people have a balanced view.

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post #3602 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 08:41 PM
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hey Hockeymac18 I also purchased my g10+warranty from bestbuy, was it difficult for you to get an exchange?
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post #3603 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by armenian01 View Post

hey Hockeymac18 I also purchased my g10+warranty from bestbuy, was it difficult for you to get an exchange?

No, it was not difficult because I was within the 30 day window (plus, they knew I was having issues, and were willing to work with me).

If you're outside the 30 day window, I'm still sure it's possible to get an exchange, especially if you purchased their warranty. I'd emphasize the issue and that you want it resolved somehow, and they'll work with you to make it work I'm sure. Just be persistent and polite about things, and they're usually understanding.
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post #3604 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 10:03 PM
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post #3605 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Hockeymac18 View Post

No, it was not difficult because I was within the 30 day window (plus, they knew I was having issues, and were willing to work with me).

If you're outside the 30 day window, I'm still sure it's possible to get an exchange, especially if you purchased their warranty. I'd emphasize the issue and that you want it resolved somehow, and they'll work with you to make it work I'm sure. Just be persistent and polite about things, and they're usually understanding.

I see, what issues did you tell them you had? I don't want to sound like a jackass saying the blacks doubled etc etc, did you tell them you were getting burn in very easily and its a faulty set or?
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post #3606 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Hm, my understanding is that the phosphor characteristics change pretty rapidly in the first 100 hrs or so and measurements drift, hence the break-in slides to speed things up before calibrating. Not sure why you got a pro cal done with less than 50 hrs on it.

MLL should not be affected by calibration unless the pre-cal measurement was taken with the brightness setting too high. Folks, make sure your brightness value is not set too high before judging the black level. If your pro did anything more special (which is unlikely), let us know.

The problem with these forums is that people think that calibration MUST take place after a break-in, when in fact that is not true. The fact of the matter is that any adjustments after any break-in period would be imperceptible to the human eye. I only posted my measurements for the sake of an FYI to the thread followers. Using break-in slides will only prove to you that you have a lemon or not AND prematurely ages your panel (without really enjoying it either). Think about it, 100 hours can be entire seasons of good television and an average of 50 movies...all wasted on 20 or slides cycling over and over.

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post #3607 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 10:21 PM
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The G15 is included with this black level issue? I think I remember reading that the guts of the G10 and G15 are the same. Ugh, I think I might cancel my order. My G15 is supposed to arrive Saturday.
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post #3608 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bphisig View Post

The G15 is included with this black level issue? I think I remember reading that the guts of the G10 and G15 are the same. Ugh, I think I might cancel my order. My G15 is supposed to arrive Saturday.

wait until they are finished with their "investigation" of the issue then re-order it if they've found a solution
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post #3609 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by armenian01 View Post

wait until they are finished with their "investigation" of the issue then re-order it if they've found a solution

Well that would be fine, but we are moving and I don't really have a living room caliber TV at this point. All I have is a Toshiba 32" LCD that is moving to the bedroom.
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post #3610 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 10:48 PM
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The following is a chart that tracks 11G/12G Panasonic Plasma panels and their MLL brightness in ft-L over time. This data is all user-reported, a compilation of many forum postings and PM's. Wherever possible, I have cited the panel model and meter model.

A disclaimer:

No effort has been made on my part to verify the accuracy of these reports. They should be taken for what they are: forum postings.

This chart contains different models, some Neo-PDP, some not. They don't all start at the same MLL from the factory. I know this. They also don't undergo the same usage patterns. That's why I've included lines to help track individual panels with multiple readings. Lines do NOT indicate that we know what happened between readings, they are for ease of tracking only.


Batpig has made this data available for viewing in a Google spreadsheet. Updates, however, should be sent by PM to both of us to make sure we get the information into the charts.

Lastly, I do not own this data, I've merely compiled it with the help of Batpig. If blog-writers or the press are interested in using the graphic, you are welcome to it. I give you my permission to re-post it and ask only that you link back to this post as well so that your readers can get access to the latest version of the data.

Thank you.



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post #3611 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 11:28 PM
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Thanks to Bdemers for doing this. I think it would be good if people can provide the meter information as well.

EDIT: Heck, while we are at it, I might as well note that I did run the break-in slides for 90 hrs for my 54s1. No break-in slides for the new 65s1. Although it's not clear to me how it could cause the MLL rise (if anything, it seems it should be cell misfiring instead), I think the break-in slides does impact the panel aging issue is so I offer my data. Bdemers, it's your call whether to include it or not. Thanks.
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post #3612 of 11238 Old 02-08-2010, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

I think it would be good if people can provide the meter information as well.

Agreed. I've started putting it in where I can find it. A lot of this info. is out there, but it can be difficult for one person to find. Send it in if you have it, or find it! I may start PM'ing people at some point to see what meters they used if it's not posted.
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post #3613 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 01:50 AM
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Very nice, make it a Google Spreadsheet open to everyone and so then Panasonic themselves can look at it. That way anyone with actual measurements can enter their data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

OK Guys...

This thread's a mess, we know that. I'm one of those people who doesn't have a meter, and so my contributions are fairly useless.

In an effort to be more useful, I've put together a spreadsheet that tracks people's reported MLL and hours of the recording. I've only chosen to use reports that cited the number of hours.

My biggest observation from this chart is that most of the rise occurs before the 500 hour mark. The data after that is a little more sporadic so far, and harder to judge the trend. It appears to flatten out with time, as expected.

A few disclaimers:

This chart contains different models, some Neo-PDP, some not. The don't all start at the same MLL. I know this. That's why I've included lines to help track individual panels with multiple readings.

Although I have at some point read every single post in this thread, I have now missed some of the reports, and I know that. Please, if you can find additional data for the chart, PM me a link or the details. I'd like to have: Model, Hours, Reading.... for as many data points as possible.

Even if it's not your own data, but you have seen other readings posted here that I've missed, please PM me and point me in the right direction.

Also, I recall that there were some reports people made of NO increase after 2000 hours. From my hunt, I had trouble tracking them down. Please point these out to me as well.


As more data comes in, I'll post an updated chart for you all.

EDIT: New data's already coming in! (minutes after posting) I will give it a day or two to see what else comes in before updating the chart.

EDIT 2: Too much good data to wait! Big thanks to mmoh00 and Smoof15 for helping pull additional points in. Hope it's okay with TomHuffman, but I put his 85U data with a dashed line. He doesn't have data points between 0 and 1962 hours, and I don't want to imply that we know what he had in between!.

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post #3614 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 02:09 AM
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Hmmm...

Google Spreadsheets might be a good idea. I don't want to be the ultimate keeper of the data, that's too much pressure for one person!

That said, I'm a little bit worried about letting it be open to all for editing. Too much chance of sabotage/trolling I'd think.

We'll have to see how this evolves. I'm happy to share my Excel file if that's helpful. If people want that, I'll put it as an attachment.

BTW, daMaster, what meter did you use on your 58PZ800U?
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post #3615 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 02:29 AM
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Wow, along with xrox's patent finding and d-nice inside info, that chart is pretty much all of what we *really* know so far. Worth a thousand posts!
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post #3616 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 03:56 AM
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Bdemers - I unfortunately don't have my BEFORE readings. But my current reading (to be rechecked before I post a final value) is .028ftl which is really not good. We need to have a way of showing what the current readings are @x hrs too, even if the starting value is unknown IMO. Perhaps, we can extrapolate/approximate the start with an annotation that says the before MLL is unknown. ?

How about posting the contrast ratio too ? before and after. and if the SD card update was done and/or a-board was replaced. Oh, wanted to add one more data point - Break-in done.

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post #3617 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 04:10 AM
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I've been hoping for a long time I'd never find myself posting this here, but the minimum luminance of my 12G pro model has increased.

I originally measured .007 ftL with my i1d2 and at 610 hours it is at .01 ftL. Not a catastrophic increase but still disappointing. Part of the reason I decided to blow $5000 on the pro model is that I was hoping it would maintain its initial mll. I know of one 11UK owner whose mll hadn't increased even .001 ftL after more than 1000 hours but I guess I wasn't as lucky.
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post #3618 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

Bdemers - I unfortunately don't have my BEFORE readings. But my current reading (to be rechecked before I post a final value) is .028ftl which is really not good. We need to have a way of showing what the current readings are @x hrs too, even if the starting value is unknown IMO. Perhaps, we can extrapolate/approximate the start with an annotation that says the before MLL is unknown. ?

How about posting the contrast ratio too ? before and after. and if the SD card update was done and/or a-board was replaced. Oh, wanted to add one more data point - Break-in done.

0.028? You're in the running for the worst! Sorry to hear it.
I'll add your info. to my chart for the next update. Don't forget # hours and meter brand...

There are already a number of single data-points in the chart, which I think are valuable as well. They're a little harder to find without the lines, but if you squint, you'll see them. Yours will be in there next time 'round. I think the chart clearly shows that for those who measured at 0 hours, the level is exactly what D-Nice indicated, around 0.005 to 0.008 for Neo-PDP panels (likely higher for the X1 and such). We can extrapolate and make some basic assumptions for those panels we don't have 0-hour measurements for.
Just having "after" measurements is helpful as it adds to the credibility of the rise, since we can say with fair confidence where the sets started out at.

Contrast ratio: I think this is an important number that hasn't been discussed enough, especially since it's a figure that's actively marketed by Panasonic. Unfortunately, not many people have listed theirs in postings. It may be a better subject for a separate thread or at least a separate document.

Talk of A-Boards, Firmware version, Break-in procedure... etc: This is really getting into a level of detail that can be hard to keep accurate and useful. Unlike the data clearly showing a general rise in black levels, nobody seems to have any indications that it's tied to or affected by these things. I'm not going to say it's unimportant to keep track of, just that it's not something I am personally ready to tackle. I hope you understand. Anybody else wants to take it on... PM me.
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post #3619 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2 View Post

I've been hoping for a long time I'd never find myself posting this here, but the minimum luminance of my 12G pro model has increased.

I originally measured .007 ftL with my i1d2 and at 610 hours it is at .01 ftL. Not a catastrophic increase but still disappointing. Part of the reason I decided to blow $5000 on the pro model is that I was hoping it would maintain its initial mll. I know of one 11UK owner whose mll hadn't increased even .001 ftL after more than 1000 hours but I guess I wasn't as lucky.

Jack,

Can you clarify exactly what model you have? We've been talking mostly about consumer models here, but I'd be curious to know...
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post #3620 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 04:55 AM
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Something else that no one has mentioned is that Panasonic could very easily sweep this under the carpet seeing as how most of us have voided our warranties by entering the SM and changing settings. While this may not be the cause of anything, Panasonic could decide to ignore everyone who has made adjustments in the SM and only deal with those who haven't. All of a sudden, this is a much smaller problem for them. Not saying this will happen, but it is a possibility.

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post #3621 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

Something else that no one has mentioned is that Panasonic could very easily sweep this under the carpet seeing as how most of us have voided our warranties by entering the SM and changing settings. While this may not be the cause of anything, Panasonic could decide to ignore everyone who has made adjustments in the SM and only deal with those who haven't. All of a sudden, this is a much smaller problem for them. Not saying this will happen, but it is a possibility.

We can reset it to the factory settings before they check if it matters. Someone posted a transcript from Panasonic (it conflicted with what they told Donnymac) which said it would void it IF the TV failed to come on after that. If they did ignore those who entered the SM (if they could find out), they would possibly have to face the negative backlash (reviews/comments from owners on websites) that could hurt their sales. I hope they choose wisely.

We as a community have contributed towards their sales and they should keep that in mind.

Also, I'm pretty sure that there could be owners who did not enter the SM and their MLL has been affected - down (up) to a poor value.

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post #3622 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

BTW, daMaster, what meter did you use on your 58PZ800U?

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post #3623 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 05:36 AM
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Thats a cool chart, but the line can be misleading. It suggests there was a linear, or at least steady increase in MLL over time. But we know that is not really true right? All or the majority of the increase happens at once correct?
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post #3624 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by iamnotmad View Post

Thats a cool chart, but the line can be misleading. It suggests there was a linear, or at least steady increase in MLL over time. But we know that is not really true right? All or the majority of the increase happens at once correct?

Totally agree. It was a tough call.

We don't really know WHEN it happens. If anything, this data shows it's not a hard increase at 1 point for every set. In fact some show major jumps at one point and others stay flat right across it.

My first concept didn't have lines, just points.... but it became very difficult to "track" what was going on. Especially since we have different models, different meters, etc...

It's not a perfect system, I know. Take it all with a grain of salt.
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post #3625 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 06:07 AM
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Much appreciate the chart friend...Im glad that these issues are being identified and addressed in a quantified manner (and not all this eye ball talk Ive been hearing)
On a different note, do we know of any consolidated consumer complaints? I called Panny yesterday to ask about their efforts in fixing this...and the service rep just read verbatim the announcement featured on Cnet. I stopped her mid way and finished the next couple sentences (I had the information in front of me...jeeze laweez). Im glad its getting some play on Cnet, but to get results...we really need to bombard Panasonic with our concerns. Comments Friends!

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post #3626 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

you will not change my opinion or persuade me otherwise. i will continue to treat this as a very isolated issue until I am proven wrong. Everything I have seen leads me to believe its isolated(hope there is a fix for those). out of millions of 11-12g sets i have seen 6 reports of an issue with actual data. This forum is the only thing to report it in the last 2 years(since this affects 11gs as well). I have several friends with the TV and none have this issue(some plus 2000 hours). Blacks rising and blacks doubling are too different things.

I'm happy that you're not experiencing this problem but you give away the impression of downplaying the issue because of that. Truth is nobody here has any idea how widespread the issue is. However your estimate of 3% is overly optimistic. If that were the case Panasonic would just come out and say that they are aware a few sets are experiencing this problem and they would replace them. 3% wouldn't hurt them. Instead they issue a statement trying to divert attention with info about plasma tech that is not an 100% accurate representation of the root cause.

You state that AVS forums do not represent the world. True but members are 10 times more likely to notice the issue compared to a casual viewer. I agree with you that those who are not sure are not experiencing the problem, however dozens of people have come out and stated they noticed an increase and you keep asking for light meter readings. I don't think all of them are people working for Sony or Samsung with an agenda just as I don't think a light meter is necessary to notice a change that is not gradual. Eyes may be easy to fool but not that easy.
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post #3627 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 06:11 AM
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one more thing...do we know if this issue only plagues panels with/without the firmware update I heard of a couple months back?...Ive never connected my set to the web ever and have not experienced the purported rise(obvious) in black level. thoughts?

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post #3628 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by toddybody View Post

one more thing...do we know if this issue only plagues panels with/without the firmware update I heard of a couple months back?...Ive never connected my set to the web ever and have not experienced the purported rise(obvious) in black level. thoughts?

Some of these measurements (Orta's in particular) go back to the past summer. So I don't think we have a particular firmware update to tie it to.
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post #3629 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 06:28 AM
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i had the A-board replaced on my 42s1 after about two months of ownership ( purchased at the end of march 2009). i was in the kitchen and heard like a hiss sound and then a small pop. i walked out to were the 42s1 is in the living room and it was off and would not power back on the LED would just blink i think 10 times. my question is what does the A-board do exactly. the reason i ask is could this tie into the black level rise in any way. i'm not trying to start any rumors ect.. ,but i know that d-nice has said the rise is do to a voltage increase and i wonder if the sudden increase in voltage all at once could have caused my A-board to fail. any thoughts or info on this would be good and maybe help find a solution to the problem. d-nice or anyone have any thoughts?. thanks
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post #3630 of 11238 Old 02-09-2010, 07:46 AM
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And just to reiterrate...

Everyone that is providing numbers for the black level rising spreadsheet...

Make sure you run "Scroll bars" before measuring anything with your calibration device!!!!

These devices have inherent IR, causing blacks to rise.

aka pressing "menu for picture settings" for just a split second leaves enough IR to double a reading.. And the menu ghost is big enough to draw over the windowed boxes of the Video Essentials IRE patterns.
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