Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Even with THX certification? I read Gamma accuracy is extremely good for G10.
If their firmware fix is going to take care it you will have everything accurate.

These are the comments about G10 in CNET review

"....highly-accurate primary colors and grayscale in THX mode; great color saturation; uses ...."

....
By engaging THX picture mode, the G10's color accuracy, shadow detail, and numerous other picture characteristics improve in most aspects without you having to make a bunch of adjustments. We'll go into the improvements below, but suffice it to say that THX comes as close to a "one-step calibration" as any such mode we've seen, with the possible exception of Pure on Pioneer's late, lamented Elite Kuro displays. ...


This color accuracy may be improved by proper calibration can't we?

The "broke" THX mode on most G10/V10's out there isn't so hot IMO. There are some really negative color luminances and the secondary colors are pretty off. By HCFR's metric, the DeltaE's (which I believe is an average of luminance, hue, and saturation errors) on a calibrated Custom mode are quite a bit better than the "broke" THX. I've never seen the "updated/fixed" THX you may get on a new G10/V10, so I can't comment on it. ChadB says it's pretty awesome though. Whether Panasonic NA ever gets around to releasing it for older makes, I don't know. It's been out in EU for months from what I understand, while the NA branch hasn't even officially recognized its existence. Main problem with THX mode though (both old and updated) is the peak light output, randomly varying unit to unit from ~25fL to somewhere just over 30. IMO, this is unusably dim even in a pitch dark room.
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post #452 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 11:53 AM
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I expect them to address that luminance issue with THX. But i am very happy with my THX in a light controlled room. I made only one change. I brought contrast level from 100 to 85. We keep harping about accurate colors. It is good on THX mode. Why would they issue THX certification if it fails to meet the minimum requirement?

But i must admit i tried several settings based on the advice of various experts, users, reviewe websites. Most of them satisfied me. It is a metter of getting used to it. I don't really care for calibrating my TV. Chances are i might not like it after calibration.
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post #453 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 01:44 PM
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this is why i wish Pioneer would stick around and jsut lower their prices to compete with competition cause everything else out their blowsssssssssssssssssssssssss
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post #454 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 01:45 PM
 
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We got a few genius's runnin around here...
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post #455 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by STILESP113 View Post

this is why i wish Pioneer would stick around and jsut lower their prices to compete with competition cause everything else out their blowsssssssssssssssssssssssss

The kind of technology they had, they were never going slash the price down.
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post #456 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 03:03 PM
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I agree 100% with Orta. I have a v10 and in THX mode greyscale is way off and the gamma curve looks terrible out of the box. While increasing contrast I get max luminance at about 75 and it doesn't change by going to 100. My max ft/l is 26.

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post #457 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 06:24 PM
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panasonic called me today and said that my tv is working okay in its specs. I told the lady about my blacks and she said she cant do nothing because the field tech who was at my house said that my blacks were okay. She said its up the the tech who came to my house. It just sucks man.... its like no one hears me !!! i was wondering now if a ISF calibration will fix some of the problem
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post #458 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 06:28 PM
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Expected responses. It is not like they gave you a concrete number on black levels like 0-60 miles in 4.8 seconds or fuel efficiency on car. They just say deep black levels.
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post #459 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Expected responses. It is not like they gave you a concrete number on black levels like 0-60 miles in 4.8 seconds or fuel efficiency on car. They just say deep black levels.

yeah deep blacks guaranteed for 600 hr.
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post #460 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:07 PM
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Hey guys, I think Ive gotten somewhere!

Calibrating my V10 with my I1...

I noticed the crazy high delta Y for level 0 pluge. 130.

Then I looked really hard and noticed image retention from the previous 100% pluges!

So I ran the Anti retention pattern from the setup menu.
It dropped the delta Y level from 130 to .025 !!

Also of interest... when moving up the pluge levels (when I hit 30% and 80%) I could hear a loud click in the back of the TV. Maybe the extra brightness causes more fans to turn on or something?

And once that click happened, my Image Retention issue was MUCH harder to reproduce. Leaving it on 100% for 5 minutes barely burned anything.

Of note, I also played the color bars from the DVE disk. Maybe those colors clicked somethings on.

Which is surprising. As normally playing anything bright will burn into the screen...
5 secs on the Yamaha XM display would burn text for 5 minutes+.
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post #461 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:17 PM
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Defdog,

I'm not quite sure what you are saying. Your measurement went from 130 ftL to 0.025 -- for the same grayscale level? And you are assuming that a clicking sound has some relevance to this?

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post #462 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:23 PM
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Is it possible some IR could elevate this level as defdog99 has posted? Because doesn't seem to be gradual. Orta says it doubled in a single night.
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post #463 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Is it possible some IR could elevate this level as defdog99 has posted? Because doesn't seem to be gradual. Orta says it doubled in a single night.

He must be quoting cd/m^2 numbers. To put it in perspective, 130 cd/m^2 is almost 40 ftL. That's very bright -- almost blinding to me.

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post #464 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:34 PM
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I understand that people are visually seeing their blacks turn grayish. Taking actual readings with an i1lt or a spyder3 are not very accurate at 0% or even 10% stimulus windows. The Chroma 5 is the most accurate(in the under $1000 price range) at this low level even more so than an i1pro. Point being not to take too much stock in your actual readings.

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post #465 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:35 PM
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Delta E went 135.0 down to 19 on 0% gray after running the anti image retention pattern 30 secs.

(similar numbers Orta's image a couple pages back shows but mine went down instead of up)

But between the IR pattern and the fans clicking on, I think that's preventing IR so the blacks stay deep.
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post #466 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:38 PM
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Not according to Tom Huffman, donnymac.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...1&postcount=17

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post #467 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

...wondering if a ISF calibration will fix some of the problem

You want to throw good money after bad?

Thats very disappointing news that they basically told you to go pound sand.

I'm gonna just live with mine for now, whats done is done. When someone other than Panasonic comes out with a super black panel and as good of an image quality as Kuro, then I'll bite. Heck, maybe Pio comes back when they see that Panny hasn't made any real progress after a couple of years

I'll vote with my wallet next time and Panasonic just lost the election. INFINATE BLACKS MY ARSE!

I hate companies that won't stand behind their product.
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post #468 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 08:45 PM
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That's very interesting Larry. Everything else I have ever read, and I did research before I bought my meters say differently. Even the guys at Spectracal who sell each of those meters rate the i1lt as the least accurate of the bunch. Now that may be a marketing thing to sell more of the enhanced spyder3's . Who knows. Good info anyway. I'm gonna go read more on that thread. Thanks

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post #469 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 09:00 PM
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Donnymac,

The most interesting thing that I came away with from Huffman's post is the rated level of the i1 D2 is 0.05 cd/m^2 or 0.015 ftL. That's 0.015 ftL -- about what I get on my X1.

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post #470 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 09:23 PM
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Last update.
That clicking sound was my Yamaha receiver on Pure Direct Mode.
So disregard that part.
Must be the anti-image retention pattern or the lengthy colorbar pattern that reset the blacks during calibration.
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post #471 of 11510 Old 10-28-2009, 09:24 PM
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I read that whole thread and another that Tom wrote in about rising black levels on his 85u and 800u. His levels were .015-.017 which are what I am getting on my v10 . I'm a little ticked that my black levels are the same as those from previous years models when black levels were one of Panasonics selling points for this years tv models.

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post #472 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Hey guys, I think Ive gotten somewhere!

Calibrating my V10 with my I1...

I noticed the crazy high delta Y for level 0 pluge. 130.

Then I looked really hard and noticed image retention from the previous 100% pluges!

So I ran the Anti retention pattern from the setup menu.
It dropped the delta Y level from 130 to .025 !!

Also of interest... when moving up the pluge levels (when I hit 30% and 80%) I could hear a loud click in the back of the TV. Maybe the extra brightness causes more fans to turn on or something?

And once that click happened, my Image Retention issue was MUCH harder to reproduce. Leaving it on 100% for 5 minutes barely burned anything.

Of note, I also played the color bars from the DVE disk. Maybe those colors clicked somethings on.

Which is surprising. As normally playing anything bright will burn into the screen...
5 secs on the Yamaha XM display would burn text for 5 minutes+.

I don't think the DeltaE is really of any significance or interest in this situation def. As I understand it, it is just an average of x/y/Y errors. These meters are not at all accurate for the x, y at 0%, which is why the Delta is so high. They do seem to be reasonably accurate with Y though, which is the luminance reading and the value this thread pertains to. IR will inflate your Y reading a bit, by about .002fL in my experience. The Y reading is what we're concerned about here, it is the "black level" measure at 0%.
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post #473 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 08:40 AM
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Right. I had the same Y as Orta.

When you can visibly see IR, no wonder the meter is reporting a bright value of Y on 0% gray.
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post #474 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 08:59 AM
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I was going to post this same thought. I zero input'd my V10 after a few hours of watching college football in a pitch black room and the glow from the TV was very intense. It was also fairly warm after 8 hours or so of straight use.

The next night I turned it on in a pitch black room after no use and it was appreciably darker. So I'm wondering if some of this isn't perceived due to residual charge on the phosphors. Just a thought.
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post #475 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nweibley View Post

I was going to post this same thought. I zero input'd my V10 after a few hours of watching college football in a pitch black room and the glow from the TV was very intense. It was also fairly warm after 8 hours or so of straight use.

The next night I turned it on in a pitch black room after no use and it was appreciably darker. So I'm wondering if some of this isn't perceived due to residual charge on the phosphors. Just a thought.

During my break-in period my dvd player was stuck on white screen for like 8 hours. That night when i switched off it was glowing for a while discharging. I was like "i am screwed".I turned on it was glowing. Next day it was pitch black. May be an over-simplified explanation. But some residual charge definitely affects your black level. When you search for the cause of overnight doubling this reason cannot be ruled out.
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post #476 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 10:04 AM
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Sad that owners have to try to figure this all out while the company just sits back and ignores it all

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post #477 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

You want to throw good money after bad?

Thats very disappointing news that they basically told you to go pound sand.

I'm gonna just live with mine for now, whats done is done. When someone other than Panasonic comes out with a super black panel and as good of an image quality as Kuro, then I'll bite. Heck, maybe Pio comes back when they see that Panny hasn't made any real progress after a couple of years

I'll vote with my wallet next time and Panasonic just lost the election. INFINATE BLACKS MY ARSE!

I hate companies that won't stand behind their product.

good point ... like i said couple months ago Panasonic CS its very disappointing. I would never buy a Panasonic product again, now ill deal with my super infinite blacks for couple more years until ill buy a new tv
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post #478 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 10:48 AM
 
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A person in the know just told me they see this a lot, especially on PIO's and it can be caused from a intermittent handshake issue. The tv thinks its a pc connection and lightens up. I'm not saying this is everyones problem, but I'd suggest different means of input, especially if you are running thru a rcvr.
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post #479 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

A person in the know just told me they see this a lot, especially on PIO's and it can be caused from a intermittent handshake issue. The tv thinks its a pc connection and lightens up. I'm not saying this is everyones problem, but I'd suggest different means of input, especially if you are running thru a rcvr.

I'm not sure, how would the problem occur on a blank input in that situation? Personally, I have direct Coax, HDMI, and Component feeds--mll's are unfortunately the same on all of them.
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post #480 of 11510 Old 10-29-2009, 02:59 PM
 
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Probably an issue with your panel then. I just find it hard to believe their is a black level conspiracy by Panny, so I think many of these guys are just on the bandwagon and are not investigating properly.
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