Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 163 - AVS Forum
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post #4861 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edowdy View Post

Hi all, I've connected with Panasonic. We bought our 54g10 July 09. So far no issues that some have noted here.
To fix the THX, Panasonic had that in their 1.28 firmware upgrade. They have since taken that down and are providing that service for customers via a certified tech at the house.

I'm wondering, should I have them do that to correct the THX settings? Right now I'm not sure I want to "rock the boat" per se.

Also, I hadn't seen any correlation here, but I wonder if this issue could possibly be related to their firmware upgrades?

Why not just download ver 1.28 from the Panasonic support site and apply it yourself:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...TC-P54G10.D#ts
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post #4862 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 01:33 PM
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They are not the same even though the version is still 1.28.

TC-P50V10 Build Date: April 2009
A-Board replaced on 1/4/2010 w/1.24, updated to 1.28.
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post #4863 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 01:35 PM
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post #4864 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 01:38 PM
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post #4865 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 02:12 PM
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In our forum one guy send a mail to panasonic-germany and they say that they know nothing about a black rising...mysterious
If panasonic in the us know about it, panasonic-germany must know it too.
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post #4866 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

They are not the same even though the version is still 1.28.

Yes they are. Here are the notes in the PDF contained in the download.

1 Firmware History
1.1 Applicable Models
TC-P42G10, TC-P46G10, TC-P50G10, TC-P54G10, TC-P42G15, TC-P46G15, TC-P50G15,
TC-P50V10, TC-P54V10, TC-P58V10, and TC-P65V10
This includes models with the suffix U, UP, or U/P.
1.2 Purpose
Solves incompatibility problem between the TV and Onkyo-Amp
Includes THX Picture Mode Enhancement
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post #4867 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 03:15 PM
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I own a 2008 46pz800u, is there a link with images, tests, or comparisons to judge how bad my set is affected? I am typing this message right now on this TV set with a ps3, and don't know how to examine. I thought about switching to an input whose component is off, but that doesn't seem to be real world, or scientifically accurate.
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post #4868 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 03:26 PM
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[quote=Nascar Dog;18174031]Why not just download ver 1.28 from the Panasonic support site and apply it yourself:

I talked with Panasonic cust. support Thursday. They said they had taken the THX OUT of the 1.28 firmware upgrade. The upgrade is simply Vierra cast upgrade now. In fact if you go out to the Panny site, you'll see they only have the Onkyo fix listed, they have removed the THX fix. They said they were experiencing issues with some customers doing it themselves, and were now offering the THX fix now thru a certified tech. coming out and doing that, free of charge to me.

I'm wondering though if folks who are seeing the rising black levels had the firmware upgrade, I didn't see any mention of that thru the posts (I may have overlooked it though).
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post #4869 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 03:49 PM
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post #4870 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nascar Dog View Post

Yes they are. Here are the notes in the PDF contained in the download.

1 Firmware History
1.1 Applicable Models
TC-P42G10, TC-P46G10, TC-P50G10, TC-P54G10, TC-P42G15, TC-P46G15, TC-P50G15,
TC-P50V10, TC-P54V10, TC-P58V10, and TC-P65V10
This includes models with the suffix U, UP, or U/P.
1.2 Purpose
Solves incompatibility problem between the TV and Onkyo-Amp
Includes THX Picture Mode Enhancement

You need to read the THX thread.

TC-P50V10 Build Date: April 2009
A-Board replaced on 1/4/2010 w/1.24, updated to 1.28.
Current 0% IRE: 0.034FtL
My SM Factory Numbers
Putting the 50V10 downstairs. Bought a new Elite 101FD
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post #4871 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

Tony,

Make sure your set has been on for at least an hour & switch to HDMI say with nothing from the device on that input turned on. Set your screen to Vivid & exit the Menu. You should see the panel turn off just as if the set was not turned on. If you switch it back to say Custom & exit the menu you're tv will have a glow to the screen.

LOL some feature the Infinite Black is if you have to run the tv for an hour or more to get it to engage. That's like having the turbo-charger on you're car available after you drive half way to where you're going to.

These reviewers need to stop noting PR BS in their reviews & actually test the features being touted. Does anyone think Cnet would be impressed with Panny's Infinite Blacks if they had to do what I just described?

Is this good or bad when the blank source on vivid mode looks dark as if it were shut off? What does this prove? How much darker it could be? I don't understand, but my 46pz800u did look black as off during this test.
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post #4872 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prozak View Post

Do this in a completely dark room, because with typical ambient light its hard to tell.

Turn on your television and put it on an input that isn't outputting a signal, or simply put it on an input that isn't being used. Now put the television in vivid mode and wait a few seconds. The screen should turn off completely. It is as if the television isn't even on, this is infinite black. Hit the menu button and you should see your screen instantly turn on again. If the screen doesn't turn off, then the infinite black feature isn't working.

What good if any is this IB nonsense if limited to vivid mode and on an unused input? So my 46pz800u looks blacker than night during this experiment, and? Black turns back to normal when pulling out of this test so how the hell does this affect actual content?I didn't know about this thing before today but wish I never did, yet still don't know why I should care.
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post #4873 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

You need to read the THX thread.

Yeah, the one in the THX thread really DID fix THX.

The one linked a bit earlier is a POS firmware that does NOTHING.
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post #4874 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newenglander View Post

I have a Kuro that needs to be replaced. I would like to get a 58" panny, but have been reading about all of the issues with the monitor.

Has anyone with the 58" experienced any loss of black levels? Also, if I order direct from Panny, any build date that I should specify to make sure the THX isssue is resolved?

I do not want to spend money on a monitor that is going to go bad, so I would appreciate some input from those of you who have been dealing with this issue.

Thanks

My goodness please do yourself a favor and get another Kuro!!! I had 2 different 65V10s and the size was awesome, but they both had risen black levels. This problem is very sad for owners of these panels. I was lucky enough to have dealt with ABC Warehouse (STRONGLY SUGGEST BUYING FROM THEM!!!) who gladly refunded mine. Again I struck gold and came across a used KRP-600M on e-bay. I was terrified that it would be broken when I got it but it worked PERFECTLY!!! Scratched, scuffed bezel and 3 minor screen scratches on the lower right screen aside, this T.V is PERFECT!!! I have a Pro-151FD and the picture on the KRP blows it away. I am so happy I ditched the unforgivably poorly built piece of TRASH Panasonic and picked up a legendary piece of equipment that will have an 0.001 Footlambert black level for the duration of it's life and not for just the first 200 hours. Get a 600M if you can find one, Have Turbe (an AWESOME member of this forum) get you a patch which turns it into an Elite signature series panel and never look back. It makes the 65V10 look like a Vizio LCD even before it starts loosing it's main selling point.
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post #4875 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 09:43 PM
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^^^^ Yeah, OK

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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post #4876 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 09:51 PM
 
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How do you block these annoying ads and when did they begin?

Log in. I think if you are merely a visitor and are not a member of the site and logged in, ads appear.
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post #4877 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by afxtwn View Post

My goodness please do yourself a favor and get another Kuro!!! I had 2 different 65V10s and the size was awesome, but they both had risen black levels. This problem is very sad for owners of these panels. I was lucky enough to have dealt with ABC Warehouse (STRONGLY SUGGEST BUYING FROM THEM!!!) who gladly refunded mine. Again I struck gold and came across a used KRP-600M on e-bay. I was terrified that it would be broken when I got it but it worked PERFECTLY!!! Scratched, scuffed bezel and 3 minor screen scratches on the lower right screen aside, this T.V is PERFECT!!! I have a Pro-151FD and the picture on the KRP blows it away. I am so happy I ditched the unforgivably poorly built piece of TRASH Panasonic and picked up a legendary piece of equipment that will have an 0.001 Footlambert black level for the duration of it's life and not for just the first 200 hours. Get a 600M if you can find one, Have Turbe (an AWESOME member of this forum) get you a patch which turns it into an Elite signature series panel and never look back. It makes the 65V10 look like a Vizio LCD even before it starts loosing it's main selling point.

Did you not mention earlier that you did a comparo between the 2 and they looked the same, except for deeper blacks. I thought you had posted settings for the Panny based on such a test.

65" do not seem to have a rise as far as objective measurements go. Anyway, hope you enjoy your Pioneer. It must be a beautiful set.

My THX Calibration
My Custom Calibration
Service menu access instructions
Panasonic 50V10, SD/THX Zip applied, Mfgr June 2009
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post #4878 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 10:14 PM
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I think instead of trying to figure out how to fix this problem with our TVs, we should contact consumer reports to investigate this and press Panasonic for a fix.

Here is the forum at consumer reports, you just need to register for free to post in their forums.

If enough people complain to consumer reports, we may have a chance to get this issue resolved more concretely.

What do you guys think?
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post #4879 of 11194 Old 02-20-2010, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

Did you not mention earlier that you did a comparo between the 2 and they looked the same, except for deeper blacks. I thought you had posted settings for the Panny based on such a test.

65" do not seem to have a rise as far as objective measurements go. Anyway, hope you enjoy your Pioneer. It must be a beautiful set.

Yes, I did do a comparison calibration, but that was between my pro-calibrated 151-FD Elite Kuro and my 65V10 before the "panel cancer" infected it. While the 151 and the 65V10 looked similar before the black levels on the V10 went to hell, the KRP-600M is a very different panel than the 151. It looks and performs considerably better. In addition, the 151 I have is a March 2009 build which means that it has a broken color management system so the color points cannot be adjusted without destroying the gamma which results in not bad, but not perfect color. Also even with the CMS untouched, the gamma could not be completely flattened out. This leads to a somewhat choppy picture with some dark areas crushing blacks. I can opt to raise the gamma a little to eliminate the crushing but it kills the 0.001 FL black level. Everything is just extremely coarse in the ISF controls so I was able to achieve a great calibration, but not without some flaws. The 600M however is not yet calibrated but instead patched and plugged with settings from a calibration on another 600M done by D-Nice. Visually, it knocks your socks off and spanks my 151. Technically, I am not 100% sure, but my eye one pro will arrive this week and I will calibrate the 600M, and re-calibrate the 151 and post the results. Either way DO NOT BUY A PANASONIC!!! THEY ARE DISPOSABLE TELEVISIONS!!! Anything would be better than a Panasonic plasma after the black level issue sets in. And for the record, everything positive I said about the 65V10 was before it's panel cancer kicked in. I held it in very high regard when it worked as it should. It will be the second best flat panel on earth for around 200 to 300 hours. Then you will own a Vizio LCD that can't get as bright as a Vizio LCD. Careful
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post #4880 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 06:12 AM
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??

I was referring to ads that appeared to the right of several posts. Got the answer on how to block them from my browser's (Maxthon) forum.
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post #4881 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 06:13 AM
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Log in. I think if you are merely a visitor and are not a member of the site and logged in, ads appear.


You know, you could be right. Anyway, my browser's (Maxthon) forum showed me how to block the ads.
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post #4882 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

I totally agree with you. I bought a set of tires and my God they show wear so they must be defective.......same logic. Also my light bulbs have stopped working so they are defective.

My light bulb is 3 months old and overnight it became half the brightness of the day before - and the company that made it put in a "feature" that cut the light output in half overnight on purpose.

The tread on my tires was cut in half from one day to the next after wearing normally - and Firestone included a feature that did that on purpose.

Nobody is complaining about natural increases in black levels. They are complaining because overnight their black levels are degraded by a factor of 2 or more because Panasonic included a feature that degraded them that much. A feature that was a mistake by their own admission in that they said they are going to correct it in the 2010 models.
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post #4883 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

That would work exept for the fact that Panasonic is the only Plasma brand with rising blacks. Rising blacks in a plasma is a defect, and it was put in these sets on purpose, and yet people don't seem to see anything wrong with that fact.



Bingo.

The need for the voltage ramp itself is not a defect.

On purpose? Are you trying to say Panasonic intentionally made the black levels rise to look unacceptable? Seriously? Do you also believe using microwaved water (brought back to room temperature) will kill plants vs regular tap water? This was an engineering mistake; plain and simple. Really the failure here is 2 fold; Panasonic's Q&A dept 1st; then their lack of fixing/addressing the issue 2nd. I'm going to wager the issue is not as widespread as it seems; the internet is really good for spreading bad news quickly and blowing things out of proportion. Really no one can say how bad the issue is until some large stats have been captured. Someone should be creating a spreadsheet with model/serial #/manufacturing date/hours used/measured rise before and after (or even just post).

And your forgetting not all of the sets experience this issue... sorta kills your conspiracy theory.

The sets wear (phosphors) in and the voltage ramp was designed to compensate for the wear. This is a feature (possibly gone bad in this hardware release, but a feature none the less). It's possible something unexpected changed in the panel assembly manufacturing and they didn't correctly compensate for it in the voltage ramp. Seems more like a engineering defect in the voltage ramp's with relation to some panels manufacturing which was obviously not found in Panasonic's Q&A testing. As not everyone's panels are experiencing this.

Has anyone built a manufacturing date database with all of the data I mentioned above? And then correlated it to people that do have issues vs people who don't? It might be that a specific run of the panels is experiencing the issue.

-SiGGy
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post #4884 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 07:30 AM
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Hi all, I apologize in advance if this is discussed elsewhere, but I skimmed through parts of this post and am not sure if there is an answer to this.

First of, I am a newbie to HDTVs. I am upgrading from an old tube and wanted to get the best TV I could find. Read tons of reviews and finally ordered a Panasonic VIERA S1 Series TC-P65S1. I debated on G and V series, but this one seemed to be the biggest TV I could get, still be a Panasonic Plasma (which is what I decided I wanted) and cost less than 2,500. Anyway. it is still in the process of being shipped and now I learn about this issue.

Questions. Does this effect the S series? If so, are they less likely to have this issue than G and V series sets? Coming from an old tube, will I still think it has a great picture even after the black levels change for the worst (if they do)? I wish i knew this before I ordered, I have been so excited to get this set up and now it isn't even here yet and I feel the rain starting to fall on my parade.
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post #4885 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wnydel View Post

Hi all, I apologize in advance if this is discussed elsewhere, but I skimmed through parts of this post and am not sure if there is an answer to this.

First of, I am a newbie to HDTVs. I am upgrading from an old tube and wanted to get the best TV I could find. Read tons of reviews and finally ordered a Panasonic VIERA S1 Series TC-P65S1. I debated on G and V series, but this one seemed to be the biggest TV I could get, still be a Panasonic Plasma (which is what I decided I wanted) and cost less than 2,500. Anyway. it is still in the process of being shipped and now I learn about this issue.

Questions. Does this effect the S series? If so, are they less likely to have this issue than G and V series sets? Coming from an old tube, will I still think it has a great picture even after the black levels change for the worst (if they do)? I wish i knew this before I ordered, I have been so excited to get this set up and now it isn't even here yet and I feel the rain starting to fall on my parade.

Before any hard statistics are in with a large sample don't read into all of this so heavily. Without the statistics you can't judge how bad the problem is here.

It's just that simple.

This thread tends to border on the doom and gloom. And it's human nature unfortunately to jump on the hate bandwagon when things go wrong. That is a lot of what your reading in here.

There is a manufacturing defect in the 2009 Panasonic's. Period.

Until someone collects a large group of stats (1000+) you really won't know how wide spread the issue is.

Wait for the statistics if you need a comfort level; if you can't stomach that return your set. The reality is NO ONE on here (besides a Panasonic employee who's lurking) can tell you one way or another until those results have been collected.

So if your concerned wait until someone collects 500-1000 data points of "model #/serial #/Build date/hours on set/black level". In my opinion mathematically speaking, without all of those data points and a good number of samples (500-1000) it's impossible to get any comfort level purchasing a 2009 Panasonic. The few charts I've seen in this thread are not detailed enough to make a decision on anything.

Or if your patient wait for the 2010 Plasma's which will be out soon. I find it amazing how some people can't wait a few months for a TV release. But that's an entirely different problem that should be discussed on a MD forum

-SiGGy
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post #4886 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Before any hard statistics are in with a large sample don't read into all of this so heavily. Without the statistics you can't judge how bad the problem is here.

It's just that simple.

This thread tends to border on the doom and gloom. And it's human nature unfortunately to jump on the hate bandwagon when things go wrong. That is a lot of what your reading in here.

There is a manufacturing defect in the 2009 Panasonic's. Period.

Until someone collects a large group of stats (1000+) you really won't know how wide spread the issue is.

Wait for the statistics if you need a comfort level; if you can't stomach that return your set. The reality is NO ONE on here (besides a Panasonic employee who's lurking) can tell you one way or another until those results have been collected.

So if your concerned wait until someone collects 500-1000 data points of "model #/serial #/Build date/hours on set/black level". In my opinion mathematically speaking, without all of those data points and a good number of samples (500-1000) it's impossible to get any comfort level purchasing a 2009 Panasonic. The few charts I've seen in this thread are not detailed enough to make a decision on anything.

Or if your patient wait for the 2010 Plasma's which will be out soon I find it amazing how some people can't wait a few months for a TV release.

Thanks! I know all about doom and gloom on discussion boards, I am a member of a Buffalo Bills discussion board, and that is almost all that is there (maybe for good reason).

But, seriously, I do appreciate the advice. I don't want to panic and return it when maybe/hopefully this issue won't affect mine. it is just ironic how I ordered it and then found out there is a potential issue.
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post #4887 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 08:32 AM
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Well I just re-tested my girlfriends infinite black on her 50" px80u and it works perfect. I also looked at the black levels by just looking at a blank input and while I can't do a side by side comparison I can say that when I compare by memory that I can't tell a difference in black levels.

I'm sure there are differences but the differences between her 50" px80u and my 42" g10 aren't readily apparent when relying on memory.

For the record though, the black levels on either set don't impress me but they don't lessen my experience watching movies.
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post #4888 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 08:37 AM
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Is there a reason why people who do not own a Panasonic plasma are commenting in this thread, other than their own buyer's remorse?
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post #4889 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by afxtwn View Post

While the 151 and the 65V10 looked similar before the black levels on the V10 went to hell

Really? How did you determine this? You are the very first AVS member to say this about a 65V10.

Looking forward to hearing your response

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post #4890 of 11194 Old 02-21-2010, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Before any hard statistics are in with a large sample don't read into all of this so heavily. Without the statistics you can't judge how bad the problem is here.

It's just that simple.

This thread tends to border on the doom and gloom. And it's human nature unfortunately to jump on the hate bandwagon when things go wrong. That is a lot of what your reading in here.

There is a manufacturing defect in the 2009 Panasonic's. Period.

Until someone collects a large group of stats (1000+) you really won't know how wide spread the issue is.

Wait for the statistics if you need a comfort level; if you can't stomach that return your set. The reality is NO ONE on here (besides a Panasonic employee who's lurking) can tell you one way or another until those results have been collected.

So if your concerned wait until someone collects 500-1000 data points of "model #/serial #/Build date/hours on set/black level". In my opinion mathematically speaking, without all of those data points and a good number of samples (500-1000) it's impossible to get any comfort level purchasing a 2009 Panasonic. The few charts I've seen in this thread are not detailed enough to make a decision on anything.

Or if your patient wait for the 2010 Plasma's which will be out soon. I find it amazing how some people can't wait a few months for a TV release. But that's an entirely different problem that should be discussed on a MD forum


I appreciate your sensible posts here and they seem very logical, thanks!

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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