Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 169 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 101Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #5041 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 07:46 AM
Senior Member
 
iamnotmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just want to say that with my 42G10, my blacks are not bezel black (nor do I expect them to be), but lately it really does seem like my blacks are getting better. I don't think they actually are improving necessarily, but they look so good that it almost seems like they are getting better.

I watched a movie on my bro's 40" local dimming LED set (couple years old top model) recently and oy! It was pretty bad. And the glowing effect you get from, I guess, the local dimming when there are light objects on a largely dark screen are terrible.
iamnotmad is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #5042 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 08:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 741
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post


Since you're in Q&A, if you consider how things work in the textile industry for eg, they take random samples and test them. That can result in entire batches being rejected.

Small numbers can also be indicative of a much larger problem.


Actually it happens in silicon wafers all the time near the edges on smaller 45nm scale. We can usually detect the issue before being cut and put into production. If we do find problem in small batches during "manual" testing we do a larger test sample before any decisions are made. We don't crap can the entire batch because 10 dies on a wafer were bad. They just don't get used. Although there is a limit to where the wafer itself is discarded it's not that small of a number.

However the point I was making is not small numbers, it's small *random* numbers. Even worse small random numbers in a thread about the problem; so that removes some of the randomness and give it weight. If you had manufacturing date, revision you'd know for sure the problem is global across all of the 2009s. Right now you don't. You know you have specific models that have the problem, no clue if it's across the board for production for that model. While the data collected is really useful it doesn't for sure tell you the problem was from a specific run. I already stated my 2 cents on buying a 2009 Panasonic. I do however believe the 2010's will be different though; I'm pretty sure Panasonic is banking on it too

I was only comparing the older years 07-08 because someone brought it up as if it was fact. I was giving them enough rope to hang themselves without making it personal. I think you'll find this same person in the new 2010 thread spreading doom and gloom for the 2010 sets; even thought they haven't been released yet.

-SiGGy
SiGGy is offline  
post #5043 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 08:31 AM
Member
 
jonandabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'll throw out there a non-owner comment (I was ALMOST an owner until this news broke) - Panasonic has now claimed that the degradation of the black is an unavoidable effect of the design of any plasma tv. Whether the "any" part is true, it is nevertheless certain that Panasonic plasma TV's have some reduction in the quality of the black level. While individual owners may not notice the difference (or are perhaps unwilling to notice the difference), and there may be some issue with whether the change happens gradually or suddenly ("overnight"), it is not possible to conclude that there is no change or there is an improvement in the black levels.

Panasonic built them to get worse, remember?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotmad View Post

I just want to say that with my 42G10, my blacks are not bezel black (nor do I expect them to be), but lately it really does seem like my blacks are getting better. I don't think they actually are improving necessarily, but they look so good that it almost seems like they are getting better.

jonandabby is offline  
post #5044 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 08:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonandabby View Post

I'll throw out there a non-owner comment (I was ALMOST an owner until this news broke) - Panasonic has now admitted that the degradation of the black is an unavoidable effect of the design of any plasma tv.

Incorrect. Its only their plasmas. Other manufacturers do not have this issue.
D-Nice is offline  
post #5045 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 08:38 AM
Member
 
jonandabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I agree - that is why my next sentence questions whether they are telling the truth. I think Panasonic has a design defect across its product line, and they are trying to misrepresent the issue to avoid admitting that (let's use a different Japanese company as an analogy) they designed a car with an acceleration pedal that was SUPPOSED to stick. One way or the other, even if Samsung's DON'T degrade, Panasonics do.
jonandabby is offline  
post #5046 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 08:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Incorrect. Its only their plasmas. Other manufacturers do not have this issue.

I wish that you would explain that to everyone as most people seem to think that it does affect all plasma sets. It is amazing how many people believe that all plasma sets are affected.

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is offline  
post #5047 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 08:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I wish that you would explain that to everyone as most people seem to think that it does affect all plasma sets. It is amazing how many people believe that all plasma sets are affected.

I'm not sure how and/or why others think its all plasmas when it has been clearly noted numerous times that this issue solely belongs to Panasonic.

I can't the illiteracy of others
D-Nice is offline  
post #5048 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 08:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
Meteor|WAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 648
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I'm not sure how and/or why others think its all plasmas when it has been clearly noted numerous times that this issue solely belongs to Panasonic.

I can't the illiteracy of others

I think that misconception originates from this quote from Bob Perry.

Notice how he answers the question:

Q: Have all plasmas always lightened in terms of black level over time? Has Panasonic ever publicly addressed the long-term black level performance of its plasma TVs?

A: All displays, CRT, Projection, DLP, LCD and Plasma, have specific performance characteristics that change over time. Customer satisfaction with our Viera Plasma's has been excellent. We are confident that the long-term black level performance will continue to provide customers with an excellent picture over years of use. As for your specific question, companies in the consumer electronics business, including Panasonic, only specify the initial values of their displays and do not project those values into the future.


http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=mncol;txt

Even though we know what he means, it's understandable how some may misinterpret it because he didn't actually answer David's question about whether or not it affects ALL plasmas.

TC-P46G10 build date May 2009
Settings and Calibration Reports
Meteor|WAR is offline  
post #5049 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 09:07 AM
Member
 
jonandabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is like Toyota saying "All cars have the same problems ours do." Panasonic's tvs for the last 2 years were designed incorrectly. They either have to admit it and fix it, admit it and suffer incredibly bad publicity, or pretend it is a symptom of the entire technology and hope that the average consumer doesn't hear the news in time to avoid buying their 2010 models. By 2011, they'll have it fixed (if they don't already).

Is anyone surprised they aren't admitting to a problem that is hardware (not fixable), and not software (firmware can be changed, you know) based?
jonandabby is offline  
post #5050 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 09:25 AM
Senior Member
 
iamnotmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonandabby View Post

I'll throw out there a non-owner comment (I was ALMOST an owner until this news broke) - Panasonic has now admitted that the degradation of the black is an unavoidable effect of the design of any plasma tv. Whether the "any" part is true, it is nevertheless certain that Panasonic plasma TV's have some reduction in the quality of the black level. While individual owners may not notice the difference (or are perhaps unwilling to notice the difference), and there may be some issue with whether the change happens gradually or suddenly ("overnight"), it is not possible to conclude that there is no change or there is an improvement in the black levels.

Panasonic built them to get worse, remember?


Actually, I do not believe that this is true, and I think what you write is a mis-interpretation of the statement made by panasonic. Since there is PLENTY of room for interpretation, your statement cannot be taken as fact (nor can mine).

But I am an owner stating what I see. You are non-owner stating a possible mis-interpretation from Panasonic.
iamnotmad is offline  
post #5051 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 09:30 AM
Senior Member
 
lunaticpuma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
D-Nice-

Do you know if the rise in MLL is simply a concession based on some other part of their design? Is it something they're actively trying to find a solution for future sets?
lunaticpuma is offline  
post #5052 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 09:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunaticpuma View Post

D-Nice-

Do you know if the rise in MLL is simply a concession based on some other part of their design?

I cannot answer this question as it deals with proprietary Panasonic technology.

Quote:
Is it something they're actively trying to find a solution for future sets?

Future sets will be different. That is all I can say.
D-Nice is offline  
post #5053 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 09:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
greenland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotmad View Post

Actually, I do not believe that this is true, and I think what you write is a mis-interpretation of the statement made by panasonic. Since there is PLENTY of room for interpretation, your statement cannot be taken as fact (nor can mine).

But I am an owner stating what I see. You are non-owner stating a possible mis-interpretation from Panasonic.

"
Panasonic admits plasma TV black level change but says picture quality still 'excellent'"


http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10447329-1.html

Excerpted From Cnet report:

"Panasonic has answered CNET's questions regarding this issue. Read more.
In response to complaints reporting a loss in black level performance in its plasma TVs over time, Panasonic has issued a statement.
It admitted that "background brightness will increase," but described the change as "automatic" over the TVs' lifespan and part of normal operation in order to "achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set."
It also said that newer plasma TVs will include a "more gradual change in Black Level over time," but made no mention of a fix for existing plasma TVs, whose owners first noted the issue at enthusiast Web site AVS forum.
Here's the entire statement as e-mailed to CNET, entitled "Automatic Control of Contrast over Operational Lifetime."
Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs deliver exceptional picture performance throughout the lifetime of these products. Various elements and material characteristics of all electronic displays change with use over time. In order to achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set, Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours. As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value."
greenland is offline  
post #5054 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:01 AM
Member
 
bendergender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Capital Federal, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Posts: 171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
This is a picture of my 46g10, May 2009, with 150 hours.
The photo was taken in the light I use to watch movies.

bendergender is offline  
post #5055 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:03 AM
Member
 
anthrojohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

YIKES! It's disheartening to see our fellow members go down one by one.

It looks more like purple blue on my computer screen. Maybe the 'voltage' is affecting blue and red cells differently than greens on your set? Any chance that your typical viewing content favors aging speed of one color over another, say, by playing a certain game often? Just curious if there's something to do with the purple black.

The blue cast might have more to do with the fact that I have consistently used the "tungsten" white balance setting on my camera with these photos. It does not look quite as "purple" in person.
anthrojohn is offline  
post #5056 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:14 AM
Member
 
jonandabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotmad View Post

Actually, I do not believe that this is true, and I think what you write is a mis-interpretation of the statement made by panasonic. Since there is PLENTY of room for interpretation, your statement cannot be taken as fact (nor can mine).

But I am an owner stating what I see. You are non-owner stating a possible mis-interpretation from Panasonic.

I'm not sure what in Panasonic's very definitive statement to CNET is open to misinterpretation. The reason I am a non-owner is 100% because I am misinterpreting/reading that statement as an admission by Panasonic that the main reason a consumer would buy a 2009 Panny plasma, the black levels, is not likely to be a valid reason for the life of the TV.

There are likely dozens of folks googling "Panasonic Black Levels" right now, and frankly I find Panasonic's ducking responsibility reprehensible. I got lucky - I was waiting for prices to drop to buy the G10. Right before I bought, I noticed D-Nice's authoritative statement, and was patient/lucky that CNET got that interview. Panasonic made a definitive admission that their black levels change. There is no room for differences of opinion of whether black levels will change on a G10 or a V10. The only viable discussion at this point is whether that change is material to the individual purchaser. It was to me - that's why I'm not buying a Panasonic 2009 or 2010 model. I just don't trust that what I buy will look the same in a year.

Then again, I wouldn't buy a Toyota now, when Hondas are out there and actually manage to slow down if you lay off the gas pedal....

If you bought a G10/V10, I empathize, but that doesn't change the fact that new people will be reading this thread every day, and a responsible community of users should not water down Panasonic's admitted (perhaps immaterial) error by not reading the simple language of their statements to CNET, just because they don't want to admit that maybe they were sold on their expensive TV's by Panasonics black levels, and now that the TVs will be losing that attribute, well, they may have made a mistake.
jonandabby is offline  
post #5057 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:28 AM
Member
 
phlevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I cannot answer this question as it deals with proprietary Panasonic technology.

Future sets will be different. That is all I can say.

Thank you. That's the first really hopefully bit of information in a while.

Guess the question that follows is--are we thinking months or years?
phlevin is offline  
post #5058 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
Nascar Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I cannot answer this question as it deals with proprietary Panasonic technology.

Future sets will be different. That is all I can say.

By future sets do you mean the 2010 (13G) models or 2011 models?
Nascar Dog is offline  
post #5059 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nascar Dog View Post

By future sets do you mean the 2010 (13G) models or 2011 models?

13G sets are not future sets as they are in the distro chain
D-Nice is offline  
post #5060 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:37 AM
Member
 
jonandabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Do you really trust Panasonic enough to fix a problem they don't admit exists in time for the new 2010 models?
jonandabby is offline  
post #5061 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
Nascar Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

13G sets are not future sets as they are in the distro chain

That's what I was afraid of.

That darn unlucky number 13...
Nascar Dog is offline  
post #5062 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:45 AM
Member
 
Harywood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Don't you mean "Disaster Chain"
Harywood is offline  
post #5063 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 10:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
scorpio_87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just pray they don't rise much. I can live with a slight increase over time, but something like .012 to .024 is just crazy.
scorpio_87 is offline  
post #5064 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 11:02 AM
Senior Member
 
sebadooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
To anthrojohn and genderbender,

I don't want to piss you guys off, but I've looked at your TV photos from two different computers at work today, and on each screen, your top and bottom black bars look black to me.
sebadooo is offline  
post #5065 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 11:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebadooo View Post

To anthrojohn and genderbender,

I don't want to piss you guys off, but I've looked at your TV photos from two different computers at work today, and on each screen, your top and bottom black bars look black to me.

This only means you have poor monitors at work. Viewed from calibrated monitors, the bars are not black.
D-Nice is offline  
post #5066 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 11:10 AM
Gov
AVS Special Member
 
Gov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NW Burbs of Chgo, IL
Posts: 3,269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 117
D-Nice,

It really seems as if the 58/65 inch models are a different animal all together. They came out later in production and did not have the THX or scan board problem like the smaller sets. So far they appear to measure little to no MLL change. To me it appears that Panasonic obviously noticed some problems during production and made changes.

Is it possible the 58/65 inch displays were corrected in production and now operating the way Panasonic had designed their plasmas to do; gradual increases and no sudden over night jumps?

If you cannot answer this question straight up, I understand

Thanks




Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100, Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
Gov is offline  
post #5067 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 11:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

So far they appear to measure little to no MLL change. To me it appears that Panasonic obviously noticed some problems during production and made changes.

Not from what I've seen. They rise just like the smaller units.
D-Nice is offline  
post #5068 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 11:14 AM
Member
 
stretch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: So Cal
Posts: 192
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebadooo View Post

To anthrojohn and genderbender,

I don't want to piss you guys off, but I've looked at your TV photos from two different computers at work today, and on each screen, your top and bottom black bars look black to me.


Maybe Panny hopes people like you purchase their sets then. on John's set, My eyes are telling me its NOT black! Guess everyone percieves black's differently. That's more of a glowing dark purple to my eyes. Sorry to see your set look so crappy! Wonder if that's under Panny's "NORMAL" degredationErrrr.Operation..
stretch is offline  
post #5069 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 11:15 AM
Advanced Member
 
dougri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 934
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 35
It will become known as "the curse of the Kuro"... the perfect television that no one could afford was discontinued and panasonic took the torch with the promise of affordability, only to tumble from their perch due to the black level issue. It is only a matter of time before corporate decides to drop kuro tech production entirely and focus on its sanyo energy investments... the production lines will soon be pumping out 2011 3D vizio plasmas. the curse of the kuro

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
dougri is offline  
post #5070 of 11475 Old 02-23-2010, 11:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,956
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 222
[quote=dougri;18190088]It will become known as "the curse of the Kuro"... the perfect television that no one could afford was discontinued and panasonic took the torch with the promise of affordability,[/QUOTE}No one could afford? There are quite a few Kuro owners on this forum (including myself). Perhaps you meant to say you could not afford them or did not want to pay the premium price?
D-Nice is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off