Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 172 - AVS Forum
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post #5131 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

In your previous comment, smaller sets will have 0.008 to 0.009 ftL initial MLLs. How did you get 0.012? 0.009 plus 0.003 for i1LT accuracy margin? I think I've read somewhere that i1LT could have up to 0.003 ftL meter-to-meter variance but I could be wrong.

I read the same thing, mmoh00.

I also read that the i1 is accurate for luminance readings down to 0.002 ftL. I think it was in a meter comparison done by Tom Huffman and posted in the Calibration Forum sometime within the past year.


EDIT: Sorry to step on your post, D-Nice.

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post #5132 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Not on my X1, Orta. Initial reading at about 200 hours was about 0.014. At 2000 hours, 0.024. At 2500 hours, 0.022-0.023 -- essentially no change.

Larry

Larry, you missed the out of box 0.008 ftL black!
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post #5133 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Typo. Its 0.011fL. I think the LT's +/ error is 0.002fL.

OK Thanks. Yeah I thought it was somewhere around there. I see Larry is confirming it too.
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post #5134 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Larry, you missed the out of box 0.008 ftL black!

ouch dude!

I actually thought the X1 didn't start quite that low...

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post #5135 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by chad473 View Post

I would hope a prospective buyer, for any tv, would not give any relevance to pictures of a tv that are most likely being viewed on an uncalibrated screen. The picture you posted doesn't look all that great, but then again nothing does on my POS monitor at work.

This is why I posted light meter readings, as well as photos -- to appeal to a range of comprehension styles.
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post #5136 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Larry, you missed the out of box 0.008 ftL black!

By a wide margin. But unfortunately, I didn't take a reading OOTB. In retrospect, I wish I had.

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post #5137 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Not on my X1, Orta. Initial reading at about 200 hours was about 0.014. At 2000 hours, 0.024. At 2500 hours, 0.022-0.023 -- essentially no change.

Larry

What hour count do you suspect you first saw the big jump Larry? I think it took you a while to comment on it (December?), perhaps the X1's are slower than the Neo's like myself and Donny's.
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post #5138 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cody1811 View Post

Anthrojon- Do you use bias lighting by chance? I can't really tell by that picture. Just curious how one of these affected sets would look and see if it makes it more bearable to watch if one experiences the drastic jump.

Thanks.

I am not a fan of bias lighting, did not need bias lighting before this problem hit, and refuse to give up my preference for dark-room viewing as a compromise to trick my eyes into seeing darker blacks.

Also, using bias lighting would still not successfully address the impact the increased black level has on overall picture quality, like decreased picture depth/"punch", and loss of shadow detail.

So, to answer your question: No, I do not use bias lighting.
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post #5139 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

I am not a fan of bias lighting, did not need bias lighting before this problem hit, and refuse to give up my preference for dark-room viewing as a compromise to trick my eyes into seeing darker blacks.

Also, using bias lighting would still not successfully address the impact the increased black level has on overall picture quality, like decreased picture depth/"punch", and loss of shadow detail.

So, to answer your question: No, I do not use bias lighting.

Cool, thanks for the reply, I was just curious.
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post #5140 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Since this is software based, yes they are.

So because it is programmed into the firmware there is no chance of any kind of defect to some sets? I can understand this for the software, but is it out of the realm of possibility there's something up with the hardware in certain sets that's causing a malfunction leading to bigger/faster jumps?

(not trying to start an arguement, BTW. Just want to pick your brain a bit)

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post #5141 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

This is why I posted light meter readings, as well as photos -- to appeal to a range of comprehension styles.

understand that, but look at the responses where people were horrified by what the picture looks like. A picture that most likely doesn't really represent what it looks like. By my measurements, my S1 probably has risen a bit (it's at .016 at 1000 hours). It looks nowhere near as bad as your pic.

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post #5142 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

What hour count do you suspect you first saw the big jump Larry? I think it took you a while to comment on it (December?), perhaps the X1's are slower than the Neo's like myself and Donny's.


Our viewing habits on this set are pretty consistent -- about 250 hours per month. The last reading was on February 10th with 2500 hours. The first at about 200-250 hours.

I didn't notice any jump but I did notice a change.



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post #5143 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post



For my Harry Potter & the Half-Blood Prince screen capture, I used the following settings, which used to produce a look of higher contrast, "inkier" blacks, and with better shadow detail (before I was hit by the bug):

Mode: Custom
Contrast: 55
Brightness: 60
Color: 43
Tint: 9
Sharpness: 70
Color Temp: Warm2
Color mgmt: off
xvcolor: off
CATS: off
VideoNR: off
BlockNR: off
Black Level: light (using "dark" only gives me gray crush -- does not lower the black level.)
3:2 Pulldown: on
H size: Size 2


I am truely sorry here but I call BS on this picture for 2 reasons.

The first reason is that on a perfectly healthy set with a brightness setting of 55 and over you get rise in black level. I know this from calibrating. At 55 there is a hint of black getting lighter than the darkest black on screen and at 56 it is a not doubt whatsoever that black level raises.

The second reason is that that image is not an image of a screen putting out a black lvl of .012. I have a panny plasma that is fine I also own a sony LCD v5100 that has a black level of .09

No freakin way that is a picture of .012 no way.

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post #5144 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

I still haven't seen anything to lead me to believe this issue isn't anything more than a small percentage of defective sets spreading paranoia to everyone else making them think they as well experienced big jumps. Once we can get to the bottom of that, this thread will probably die as this becomes a non-issue. Unfortunately there's no real scientific way to determine it, so the paranoia and bickering will continue forever.

But isn't the actual issue the FACT that this bug will affect EVERYONE with a 2009 set, as admitted to by Panasonic, regardless of it being a gradual or "instant" rise? Hypothetically, at Hour 1000, if my set and Joe Shmo's set both measure .024ftL and mine happened to instantly jump at 140 hours and his slowly rose in a linear fashion up to that point, how does that make Joe Shmo's set any less defective from a user's standpoint. At 1000 Hours, we will both be dealing with the same disappointing picture.

I believe that this thread (or some other form of a campaign against Panasonic) will not rest until Panasonic has mended their ways through a fix or some other reasonable solution. I could be wrong about all of this, but there may be more momentum in the months ahead as more 2009 owners hit enough hours on their sets to become disgusted by the washed out images on their screens.
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post #5145 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Umm, Chad and serialmike, the picture was with 0.023 ftL black, I think.

I am telling you there is no way none whatsoever that that is .012. None. If you really want I will take a picture of by sony LCD with a .09 which is ten times lighter than a flawed panny and youll see.

I really don tfeel like doing it but yeah no where near looking like that.

Show me that image with the settings menu showing brightness and contrast adfjsut becasue that picture is pure BS. That is the image of a purely out of adjusted set or an absolute defect that would be replaced

To be honest knowing what my .09 set looks like Im not sure most people could even eyeball .006 to .0012 in fact I seriously doubt they could or that even I could

edit-hmm something odd dont know where the post went that i quoted here.

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post #5146 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

No freakin way that is a picture of .012 no way.

first, that picture was ostensibly of 0.023, NOT of 0.012!


Quote:


on a perfectly healthy set with a brightness setting of 55 and over you get rise in black level. I know this from calibrating. At 55 there is a hint of black getting lighter than the darkest black on screen and at 56 it is a not doubt whatsoever that black level raises.

this is NOT necessarily the case! For example, I plugged in D-Nice's offsets into my friend's 50X1 last weekend, and I verified that his suggested calibrated brightness setting of 78 was correct (in Cinema mode with his offsets applied).

(BTW - I do not disagree with you that photos are very misleading!!)

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post #5147 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

[snip]


this is NOT necessarily the case! For example, I plugged in D-Nice's offsets into my friend's 50X1 last weekend, and I verified that his suggested calibrated brightness setting of 78 was correct (in Cinema mode with his offsets applied).

[snip]


Batpig, I agree. Our bedroom 42X1 has D-Nice's offsets and user settings. His Brightness level is spot on.


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post #5148 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

I am truely sorry here but I call BS on this picture for 2 reasons.

The first reason is that on a perfectly healthy set with a brightness setting of 55 and over you get rise in black level. I know this from calibrating. At 55 there is a hint of black getting lighter than the darkest black on screen and at 56 it is a not doubt whatsoever that black level raises.

The second reason is that that image is not an image of a screen putting out a black lvl of .012. I have a panny plasma that is fine I also own a sony LCD v5100 that has a black level of .09

No freakin way that is a picture of .012 no way.

1. My screen measures .023 ftL on a black screen, not .012 (those were the good old days).

2. If viewing photos triggers you to "call BS", please disregard the photos and go with my LIGHT METER READINGS, performed before and after the rise. 012 ftL --> .023 ftL. But, PLEASE do not imply that I have doctored or photoshopped my photos. That's just absurd!

3. I suppose I have experienced firsthand why it is not a good idea to post photos of this issue. I knew the risks going into this. The appearance of these photos will vary WILDLY from monitor to monitor. On a Mac screen, for instance, the image will appear much brighter than I experience it, if the viewer is using the native mac gamma setting.

OK. Enough about the photos. Posting them was a misguided way to document my problem. I will stick with numbers from now on.
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post #5149 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:48 PM
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I have been corresponding with a friend who has knowledge of the situation: he gave me permission to post some of our discussions noting he is not a spokesman for Panasonic or any company, and these are not official statements: so take it for what it is worth:


What I can confirm is that it [black level changing issue] is not being ignored by upper management on both sides of the Pacific, but there will not be any further word until the next actions, if any, are confirmed, checked, and approved by all sales markets worldwide.

Seems this is an issue in Europe as well.

Of note is the standard practice of P (and other vendors) to take MLL readings in "black caves" with the front glass removed, 30 minute warm-up with no signal, and laptops located in adjacent rooms so there will be no ambient light contamination from the computer screen.

I doubt members can meet these conditions or measure accurately with the economy light meters they are using.

The point is that black levels are still very low, lower than most of the competition, even after the pre-programmed MLL increases.

The BL thread is trying to conclude that there is more of a problem with smaller (42, 50) models than with 58 or 65 models.

1.) You sit further away from larger sizes.
2.) They are usually in larger rooms with more ambient light leaks.

There may be quotes citing lower P sales this week, which is true but it is not due to BL concerns.
New models are due out soon and sales normally fall slightly as potential buyers wait for new models.

The competition did a lot of severe price-cutting around Super-Bowl through Olympics time but that only leads to short term gains for them. P has been #1 in Plasma sales 42 and up for 80 of the last 82 weeks.

The Pro side is booming with more than 50% of sales at 65 inches +. The new 85 inch is backordered until NAB in April. The 152 inch has been starring behind Bob Costas every night of the last 11 days.

Most Pro sales are not in black caves which is why there are almost no reported BL problems. The Pro firmware is different, but I'm not sure how. The Home Theater VX series uses a custom PDP and internal scaler which I believe function differently as well.

What I do know is that phone campaigns to clog up the call center do nothing, letters and e-mails to company presidents will do nothing because they are in the same boat wondering what the Factory is going to do if anything.

Our marketing studies show that others' defect ratios are nearly double what P has, typically 5% vs. 2% or less. Pro models are just a few tenths of a percent helped by the higer technical levels of the end-users, more concern for mounting and environmental conditions, etc.


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post #5150 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

I am telling you there is no way none whatsoever that that is .012. None. If you really want I will take a picture of by sony LCD with a .09 which is ten times lighter than a flawed panny and youll see.

I really don tfeel like doing it but yeah no where near looking like that.

Show me that image with the settings menu showing brightness and contrast adfjsut becasue that picture is pure BS. That is the image of a purely out of adjusted set or an absolute defect that would be replaced

LOL, I deleted my post because I figured anthrojohn would answer himself. I repeat: I think that picture was with 0.023 ftL black AFTER the rise. Why are you talking about 0.012? And for Chad, why compare it against 0.016? He showed 0.012 vs 0.023 blacks with same camera settings, PLUS a real scene after the rise PLUS the meter measurements! Not sure why people are so hard on him.
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post #5151 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

first, that picture was ostensibly of 0.023, NOT of 0.012!




this is NOT necessarily the case! For example, I plugged in D-Nice's offsets into my friend's 50X1 last weekend, and I verified that his suggested calibrated brightness setting of 78 was correct (in Cinema mode with his offsets applied).

(BTW - I do not disagree with you that photos are very misleading!!)

Thank you for the backup, Batpig, regarding everything you just said!

Note to self: NEVER post a photo within this thread EVER AGAIN.
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post #5152 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:50 PM
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when I saw markrubin had posted on this thread I thought it was lockdown time!!

Quote:


The point is that black levels are still very low, lower than most of the competition, even after the pre-programmed MLL increases.

not much of a denial that it WILL rise. Note the word "still"....

it's really a question of expectations.... people aren't getting what they thought they were buying.

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post #5153 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

LOL, I deleted my post because I figured anthrojohn would answer himself. I repeat: I think that picture was with 0.023 ftL black AFTER the rise. Why are you talking about 0.012? And for Chad, why compare it against 0.016? He showed 0.012 vs 0.023 blacks with same camera settings, PLUS a real scene after the rise PLUS the meter measurements! Not sure why people are so hard on him.

Thank you, too!
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post #5154 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

when I saw markrubin had posted on this thread I thought it was lockdown time!!

ditto But I couldn't figure out why.

Thanks for the scare and the info, Mark.

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post #5155 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:54 PM
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The point is that black levels are still very low, lower than most of the competition, even after the pre-programmed MLL increases.

If only that was true.

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post #5156 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:56 PM
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well it is, mostly -- if your set rises to 0.018 or so it is still lower than "most of the competition" (i.e. Samsung/LG plasmas and the majority of LCD's). It's just not "near Kuro blacks" anymore. Again, expectations.

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post #5157 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:57 PM
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Hopefully my meter will show up tomorrow or the day after. Now that I know panny tests with no input, in a black cave, I will try and do the same to some extent.
I'll be like the NFL and take my laptop "under the hood".

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post #5158 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

If only that was true.

Recent Samsung plasma MLL data from the calibration forum:


0.016, 0.024, 0.023, 0.028, 0.011, 0.033, 0.025, 0.031, 0.030, 0.026, 0.028, 0.018, 0.026, 0.018, 0.028, 0.025, 0.019


0.024 ftL average.


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post #5159 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 03:00 PM
 
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i have the tcp50g10 and a panasanic bd 35k that i been using since i have it for one year like a week ago i decide to buy a lg bd 390 ups drop the package today the strange thing is that when i start to use the new bd player the picture looks way better blacks looks rich and picture quality look awesome looks like the gamma on this bd make the picture better than the panasonic bd player because the picture look more bright and black looks better it make the illusion like the black bars are deep black but i notice is optical illusion a least i can enjoy better the movies with the lg...
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post #5160 of 11257 Old 02-23-2010, 03:02 PM
 
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Not sure why people are so hard on him. [/quote]

I completely agree. His photos were not meant for scientifics reasons none whatsoever. I am partially to blame because I wanted to see what a so-called affected set looked like with actual source material rather than a blank input screen.
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