Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 178 - AVS Forum
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post #5311 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 05:01 PM
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I got more than I bargained for but I always enjoy a little math

All somebody would have had to say is "that Y value is cd/m^2" and I would have been on my way!

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post #5312 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I got more than I bargained for but I always enjoy a little math

All somebody would have had to say is "that Y value is cd/m^2" and I would have been on my way!


When it come to basic physics, I'm not going to let you get away with that.

Larry
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post #5313 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 05:10 PM
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Man can you imagine if Pioneer was still up and running in full production right now. Their sales would be going through the roof.

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post #5314 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 05:36 PM
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Did anyone that posts here ever consider the Toshiba 55SV670U?
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post #5315 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 06:04 PM
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So, Tom Huffman came over to my house tonight and took the measurements of my TC-P54V10.

It came out to be 0.018ftl, the TV has 610+ hours on it. I don't have the ftl readings when the TV was new out of the box.
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post #5316 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

I agree with that Larry but we all know that the probs I have are not related to me entering the service menu and doing something wrong. It's just their way to get out of fixing my black level problem which again we all know they refuse to admit is a problem.

I can just see Panasonic using this as their new "strategy"...have all techs check if the SM has been entered. Yes? See ya!


LCD is the MP3 of the TV world
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post #5317 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

Man can you imagine if Pioneer was still up and running in full production right now. Their sales would be going through the roof.

People didn't buy Pioneers because they were so expensive. It would be the same story today so the increased sales would probably be very small, perhaps negligible.
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post #5318 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luciano1213 View Post

After reading this thread for the last 3 hours, this is what I get. People have bought a 12G set. This includes the V10 which I was going to buy this week. When they first get it, the measured black levels are second only to the Pioneer Kuro.
Then this change takes place after so many hours and the black levels are about as good as some of the medium priced LCDs sold.Am I getting this correct because all of the 0.012s and 0.006s and graphs are nice and I appreciate all the work done and it's all necessary to quantify the problem but they really don't tell me anything about the picture quality, specifically black levels, during actual TV viewing? So the consensus here is that you bought a great TV and now you own a poor quality TV. Is that it because that how it looks to me? So even though some of these G12 series sets are going for fantastic prices right now, I'd be a fool to buy one. Right? That's what I get from CNET.


P.S.

1 ftL = 1/pi * cd/ft^2

converting ft^2 to m^2 gives

1 ftL = 3.4262591 cd/m^2

Ain't physics great?

I know that certainly isn't directed to the masses here but.....
Wow. That takes me back to college and the horrors of Physics and Physical Chemisty.
But I need help choosing a new TV now, so I have a little trouble converting that into how "The Dark Knight" on Blu Ray is going to look on my set.

The short answer is no. This is the minority that actually noticed it and can quantify it; the rest either don't know, or don't care, so to say that your getting a poor TV is a massive stretch. Don't get fooled by hasty generalizations.
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post #5319 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

The short answer is no. This is the minority that actually noticed it and can quantify it; the rest either don't know, or don't care, so to say that your getting a poor TV is a massive stretch. Don't get fooled by hasty generalizations.

What he said. Some of the most respected members here have said that the black level rise shouldn't stop anyone from buying what is still a very nice tv. Just one that has issues, like all products do, that it would have been nice to have the manufacturer divulge.

The mania and "storm the bastille" mentality from some posters is unfortunate, but easy to understand if you know a little something about human nature, and mob mentality - not to mention OCD! I agree, manufacturers should disclose all known issues to consumers, and fix them when they arise. If you can read between the noise, it seems the vast majority of folks with this issue are in fact getting tech visits, boards replaced, and issues logged for later action if and when Panasonic decides how to approach it, all for a problem which bothers a very small percentage of buyers. A great deal of supposition and over-reaction has gone into much of this thread.

That isn't to say that those with dramatic rises don't have an issue they should be adamant about getting fixed, or those with less serious rise who feel that the manufacturer misled them and made their purchase based on faulty information. They have a beef, and have every right to pursue it.

But in my experience, if you are an average person looking for an above average television for a very good price, the Panasonics should do you just fine. I have a 58S1 with over 800 hours on it now, and a very suggestible personality, and even though I've been consumed with this thread, my picture just seems to get better and better. Blacks are still very black, seem just as good as the day I unboxed it to me. Much better than any LCD I've ever seen, and the image is sharp and vibrant no matter what the source. I think even SD programming has improved since the set was new, though perhaps it is just me getting used to it.

All the pitchforks and restless villagers on this thread have taken what seems to be a pretty small (relatively) issue and blown it out of any reasonable proportion. Again, read between the noise and you will find useful information on the actual issue underneath all the shouting. It seems real, and quantifiable, but infinitessimal to the vast majority of folks. Amd mpt tp be a fanboy, but it seems to me that a few isolated anecdotes aside, the jury is still out on whether or not Panasonic will deliver a fix for those who seek it. By all indications they seem to be more responsive than any of the other manufacturers out there, so calls for blood seem premature to me.

If you think you will be unhappy with what to the vast majority of buyers is an undetectable to the eye rise in black levels, look elsewhere. If not, buy a Panny and watch it; you'll be able to stay off the scary internet that way, too!
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post #5320 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 08:25 PM
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well another noobie here . I had a p50g10 up until today, bought it on Jan 29, returned to best buy today! my choice.
I was aware of the info from avs, the good reviews from cnet etc., and I'm pretty through. Thought, well, take a chance, best bang for the buck, great tv. now i have read almost every posting on this forum for less a month now, on the 11/12G models, high def forum, some tweak. Wow some great stuff. couple of you guys are right up there.
here's what i found with the tv. now i broke in the tv with d's slides, and his settings but i lowered the bright/cont to 70, 150 hrs, never let it run for over 8hrs at a time, then cool, that's my kookiness. now when everyone was trying to check the IB, mine did this. Vivid, turn off (no matter hot/cold) turn on, three step downs, then one step up. All other pic modes, when initiated, two steps down. So next i was aware of the 1.28 update, bought 25ft of ether-cable, tv confirmed my connection, then a box pops up stating server failed, tried it many time and days. now i call panasonic, and wait for twenty minutes, called next day same, on hold! never did talk to anybody.
i was keeping up on the saga, and hoping panny would be able to say something reassuring so i could keep this tv. my 30 days were up, couldn't or didn't need to take a gamble. I may have never seen the problem, but panny said " the voltage increase is meant but the future models will be adjusted accordingly" something to that effect in my book that means "repaired"?
this g10 had a great pic but had only 200 hrs on it. no black issue, but the one in BB is gray. I will be waiting on D's 2010 review, and also cnets 12g testings.
Thanks for all this free info.
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post #5321 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Of course. I was just re-enforcing your quote from the warranty statement.

And, yes. After all, Panasonic is nothing more than a large for-profit organization. I would be surprised if they acted any differently.

Larry

I'm glad you reinforced Donnie's post because we couldn't comprehend it ourselves.

Are you keeping the dead horse inside......the smell might be getting pretty bad.
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post #5322 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:02 PM
 
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At what meter reading do you guys start to notice change in PQ? .012 .015 , etc? Someone care to elaborate on this, pretty please
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post #5323 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

I'm glad you reinforced Donnie's post because we couldn't comprehend it ourselves.

Are you keeping the dead horse inside......the smell might be getting pretty bad.

What are you talking about? I think that I've mentioned anything about warranties about 3 times in over 2000 posts.

Larry
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post #5324 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by prozak View Post

People didn't buy Pioneers because they were so expensive. It would be the same story today so the increased sales would probably be very small, perhaps negligible.

I disagree although just speculation on my part but I beleive many more people would justify spending more for the Pioneer Kuro if they were still in production today not just because of picture quality but to eliminate being caught in this ever so damaging black level rising debate going on with Panasonic wright now the very close and really only runner up to the Kuro,very sad I must say
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post #5325 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:18 PM
 
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I personally can't justify the price of a pioneer because their long term durability doesn't seem to be any better than a lot of other manufacturers. Although their PQ is outstanding while it last.
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post #5326 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:38 PM
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What he said. Some of the most respected members here have said that the black level rise shouldn't stop anyone from buying what is still a very nice tv. Just one that has issues, like all products do, that it would have been nice to have the manufacturer divulge.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17696413

i disagree. the above pic shows a cheap tn lcd panel blowing away a plasma.

viera fan no longer. damn them unless they can fix this. such a dumb mistake to make.
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post #5327 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:44 PM
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I think that when you are looking at just about any major electronics purchase, or any high costing material object you get into a bracket of functions vs. price. Along with it comes the reliability, technical support and accountability of the manufacture.

I always like trying to find the most cost effective bang for my buck product, but there is always a potential cost for not buying the most expensive brand name. It could be features, reliability, or just piece of mind knowing you have no regrets.

There is a 60 inch Kuro on ebay for about $4375. If price was no object I might just pick that up, but it is, and so goes risk and reward of a solid B brand.

I did the same thing with my computer. I bought an Asus which, is essentially $500 less than a comparable Imac, but doesn't have the brand name and recognition to the average person. It's the game of risk and reward.
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post #5328 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor View Post

I disagree although just speculation on my part but I beleive many more people would justify spending more for the Pioneer Kuro if they were still in production today not just because of picture quality but to eliminate being caught in this ever so damaging black level rising debate going on with Panasonic wright now the very close and really only runner up to the Kuro,very sad I must say


It is absolutely speculation on your part, and wild and baseless, at that. I am happy that you found a reason to pull the trigger on a TV that you wanted, but no way would I spend double - or more - than I did on my 58S1 to avoid what may never be a problem on my panel. Especially not for a TV that is out of production completely.

No. Way. I bought Panny knowing that they weren't the tippy top of the line, and based my decision accordingly (S1, not V10). I spent what you spent on peace of mind for your Kuro on all new surround speakers (PSB Image) and copious BDs with which to enjoy my new TV. No regrets at all, and even if Kuros were easy to find, I'm just not a consumer that will pay top dollar.

How wise does the decision to spend crazy money on a panel look when they both become unusable or degraded a few years down the line, as nearly every consumer electronics product does sooner or later? We are then both out whatever money we put into them. Who can decide if you got a few thousand more of enjoyment out of yours than I got out of mine?

Bang for buck for me, and I'm confident many, many others on this board.
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post #5329 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob13bob View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17696413

i disagree. the above pic shows a cheap tn lcd panel blowing away a plasma.

viera fan no longer. damn them unless they can fix this. such a dumb mistake to make.


Oh, well if you have a picture... Right, anthrojohn?

Damn dirty apes. Damn them all straight to hell!

I can only speak from my experience. Plasma blacks from my S1 are much better than any of the LCDs in my house. Seems your experience hasn't been the same as mine.
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post #5330 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

I personally can't justify the price of a pioneer because there long term durability doesn't to be any better than a lot of other manufacturers. Although their PQ is outstanding while it last.

Very true its all matter of preference as far as each persons needs and wants. At this point under the circumstances it was very easy for me to justify the price .
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post #5331 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 09:59 PM
 
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In 2 years I see a thread coming "The king is dead". This of course is refering to the one and only Pioneer Kuro. You were great and still are, but your days are numbered.
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post #5332 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

It is absolutely speculation on your part, and wild and baseless, at that. I am happy that you found a reason to pull the trigger on a TV that you wanted, but no way would I spend double - or more - than I did on my 58S1 to avoid what may never be a problem on my panel. Especially not for a TV that is out of production completely.

No. Way. I bought Panny knowing that they weren't the tippy top of the line, and based my decision accordingly (S1, not V10). I spent what you spent on peace of mind for your Kuro on all new surround speakers (PSB Image) and copious BDs with which to enjoy my new TV. No regrets at all, and even if Kuros were easy to find, I'm just not a consumer that will pay top dollar.

How wise does the decision to spend crazy money on a panel look when they both become unusable or degraded a few years down the line, as nearly every consumer electronics product does sooner or later? We are then both out whatever money we put into them. Who can decide if you got a few thousand more of enjoyment out of yours than I got out of mine?

Bang for buck for me, and I'm confident many, many others on this board.

Wild and baseless ???? <<<< Maybe is absolutley speculation on your part Its all back to a matter personal prefrence what one spends and how much they spend for the there display or audio gear is up to the individual so for you to say its crazy well maybe to you but not to some .Enjoy your S1 my friend its all about what makes you happy .
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post #5333 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by panaman88 View Post

in 2 years i see a thread coming "the king is dead". This of course is refering to the one and only pioneer kuro. You were great and still are, but your days are numbered.

lol
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post #5334 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

I can just see Panasonic using this as their new "strategy"...have all techs check if the SM has been entered. Yes? See ya!


That would be pretty weak and would give them a out thats for sure .
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post #5335 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:19 PM
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Factor, I knew you couldn't stay away from this thread-it's where all the cool kids hang out.
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post #5336 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:21 PM
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Factor, I knew you couldn't stay away from this thread-it's where all the cool kids hang out.

I heart you guys
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post #5337 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:32 PM
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Just measured my 58" PZ800U, currently at 986 hrs:
@200 hrs: 0.008 ftL
@537 hrs: 0.014 ftL
@802 hrs: 0.015 ftL
@986 hrs: 0.013 ftL

Once I cross the 1000 hour mark I'll measure again and see if the MLL jumps by 0.006-0.008 ftL.
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post #5338 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:39 PM
 
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You are the second poster that showed a rise and drop after a certain number of hours. I wonder if there is any chance the MLL could ever return to it's original stage. Hey, just wishful thinking.
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post #5339 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

Just measured my 58" PZ800U, currently at 986 hrs:
@200 hrs: 0.008 ftL
@537 hrs: 0.014 ftL
@802 hrs: 0.015 ftL
@986 hrs: 0.013 ftL

Once I cross the 1000 hour mark I'll measure again and see if the MLL jumps by 0.006-0.008 ftL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

You are the second that showed a rise and drop after a certain number of hours. I wonder if there is any chance the MLL could ever return to it's original stage. Hey, just wishful thinking.

I doubt my MLL is actually going back down to 0.008 ftL. The small difference in readings are most likely due to the margin of error of the EyeOne Display colorimeter. I measured 3 times tonight and twice I measured 0.013 and once 0.014.
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post #5340 of 11400 Old 02-24-2010, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

I doubt my MLL is actually going back down to 0.008 ftL. The small difference in readings are most likely due to the margin of error of the EyeOne Display colorimeter. I measured 3 times tonight and twice I measured 0.013 and once 0.014.

Do you find the black levels still exceptable when watching BD content?




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