Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 184 - AVS Forum
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight?
Tas71's Avatar Tas71 04:11 PM 02-26-2010
This might be really not called for but has anyone done (can be done?) a comparison of mll's for people having calibrated their sets as apposed to people not calibrating their set. Just popped into my head. It might have been the Fosters (Australian for beer, mate).

batpig's Avatar batpig 04:18 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

Mine is grayed out at 60hz. Reading is .025 on THX Warm.

what are your hours now? our only data point for your set AFAIK is a reading of 0.028 at 1100 hrs... but didn't you have some issues with IR from the white window patterns?
thebigdaddye's Avatar thebigdaddye 04:19 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukic View Post

Nothing is wrong with your TV set. I see the same flickering on my 46G10.
It is just how it works, and on AVS forum they had thread about it. Do not let your TV butchered anymore because there is nothing that can be done, except maybe to sue Panasonic for THX, black levels and flickering.

then why am i just now seeing it? i had never noticed this until about a month or so ago and like i stated it's not just white scenes, but bright scenes as well. then the whole IR,black level doesn't help either.
LarryInRI's Avatar LarryInRI 04:28 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tas71 View Post

This might be really not called for but has anyone done (can be done?) a comparison of mll's for people having calibrated their sets as apposed to people not calibrating their set. Just popped into my head. It might have been the Fosters (Australian for beer, mate).


Do you mean "calibrated" as in calibrated with a meter -- or only with offsets applied -- or with nothing being done?

If you have a meter, you acquired it to calibrate the set. If you don't have a meter, there is no way to measure MLL.


Larry
Audiotitis's Avatar Audiotitis 04:34 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

what are your hours now? our only data point for your set AFAIK is a reading of 0.028 at 1100 hrs... but didn't you have some issues with IR from the white window patterns?

1321 hrs. Count .....0810 (not sure what the latter is). I was using the scrollbar before taking MLL readings and after running the white window patterns. Larry suggested that would increase the MLL. So I took readings by NOT doing that before measuing 0IRE. I would not consider the drop to be anything as of now. It could have been something else. If someone else shows a drop and we have more data points like that, then maybe it actually fell a bit. One of the readings measured 0.020. Got .023 twice. But .025 has been measured several times and that is where it is right now.
Yukon Trooper's Avatar Yukon Trooper 04:34 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tas71 View Post

This might be really not called for but has anyone done (can be done?) a comparison of mll's for people having calibrated their sets as apposed to people not calibrating their set. Just popped into my head. It might have been the Fosters (Australian for beer, mate).

A meter is needed to measure black levels and 99% of people buy the meters for calibration. It must be the Foster's, that stuff is horrible.
LarryInRI's Avatar LarryInRI 04:49 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

1321 hrs. Count .....0810 (not sure what the latter is). I was using the scrollbar before taking MLL readings and after running the white window patterns. Larry suggested that would increase the MLL. So I took readings by NOT doing that before measuing 0IRE. I would not consider the drop to be anything as of now. It could have been something else. If someone else shows a drop and we have more data points like that, then maybe it actually fell a bit. One of the readings measured 0.020. Got .023 twice. But .025 has been measured several times and that is where it is right now.


'Count' is the number of time your TV has been turned on.

Try this: Pick an unused mode -- Standard or Vivid for example. Turn the Contrast, Brightness, and Color down to zero. Let it run that way with the meter on the screen for a minimum of 30 minutes. Do a meter calibration using the inside of a black DVD case. Check the MLL.

Larry
Audiotitis's Avatar Audiotitis 04:59 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

'Count' is the number of time your TV has been turned on.

Try this: Pick an unused mode -- Standard or Vivid for example. Turn the Contrast, Brightness, and Color down to zero. Let it run that way with the meter on the screen for a minimum of 30 minutes. Do a meter calibration using the inside of a black DVD case. Check the MLL.

Larry

The meter was calibrated on a smooth black non-porous surface even smoother than the DVD case before it sat on the TV.

I had the meter on the screen for more than 30 mins before taking the readings. I let it warm up a bit. I thought brightness (& contrast) did not affect the MLL from the first post. I did measure only in THX though. I will try what you said. If it makes a difference, then most likely, all of us would have to re-measure it with the same technique.

Btw, I set my brightness to 48 on THX without a pluge (17 blinking). On custom, I had no issues with gamma. But on THX, I tried all sorts of things with the contrast and brightness and the gamma would not budge till I lowered the brightness. I will do the test per the last post by Richard in the V10 settings thread and see if its crushing blacks.
batpig's Avatar batpig 05:05 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

1321 hrs. Count .....0810 (not sure what the latter is). I was using the scrollbar before taking MLL readings and after running the white window patterns. Larry suggested that would increase the MLL. So I took readings by NOT doing that before measuing 0IRE. I would not consider the drop to be anything as of now. It could have been something else. If someone else shows a drop and we have more data points like that, then maybe it actually fell a bit. One of the readings measured 0.020. Got .023 twice. But .025 has been measured several times and that is where it is right now.

ok, thanks, that's what I thought. I think we should revise the old 0.028 reading then to correspond with the newer numbers and assume it was because of the white-scroll you were running, 0.023-0.025 is probably more accurate.

Quote:


I thought brightness (& contrast) did not affect the MLL from the first post.

right, but they could if they are too high. I think Larry was suggesting to put them all at "0" just to rule that out as a factor... if they are all at "0" you know FOR SURE you are at MLL.

Quote:


If it makes a difference, then most likely, all of us would have to re-measure it with the same technique.

it definitely is a good idea to have some standardization of technique. Larry's suggested procedure is a good one.
LarryInRI's Avatar LarryInRI 05:06 PM 02-26-2010
Audiotitis,

Do the meter calibration after it has warmed up on the screen -- not before.

Larry
Camster's Avatar Camster 05:13 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukic View Post

Nothing is wrong with your TV set. I see the same flickering on my 46G10.
It is just how it works, and on AVS forum they had thread about it. Do not let your TV butchered anymore because there is nothing that can be done, except maybe to sue Panasonic for THX, black levels and flickering.

Hmm, I called Panny about this very issue today & they are sending someone to look at it. The fact that it occurs on any type of source, HD Cable or DVD , Hi Def rips etc. seemed to concern them a bit. I'm the same as Bigdaddye with it on bright scenes, sky etc & it is very distracting at times. So the tv is working normally with all of that flicker/brightness shifting regularly? Oh well I've got white blotches about the size of $1 coins that show up when watching hockey as well in the middle of the screen too.
Audiotitis's Avatar Audiotitis 05:23 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Audiotitis,

Do the meter calibration after it has warmed up on the screen -- not before.

Larry

Ah. Wow. I missed that one. Thank you Larry. I will do so. Btw I commented here on my last test. I will redo the measurement with both these factors taken into account.

Oh btw - I noticed something really strange. Changing the brightness (or contrast, color...) on the PS3 input changed the setting on my cable input too. So the brightness change to 58 on HDM1-1 also changed it automatically on HDMi-2. For THX. Did not try with the other modes. But I thought that was very odd. Don't remember it doing this before.

In retrospect, I think I did warm the meter before calibrating the sensor offsets on black. However, I did not know about this. Nevertheless, I'll recheck.

jackal2001's Avatar jackal2001 05:31 PM 02-26-2010
Here are my FtL measured just now.

1. Eye1LT
2. Pitch Black Room
3. HTPC playing MP4 files of the AVSHD 709.
4. 0% IRE Windowed Slide
5. HCFR Software.

.032 FtL

batpig's Avatar batpig 05:33 PM 02-26-2010
did you follow the procedure above (letting the meter warm up for 30+ minutes and THEN recalibrating the "internal offsets") when measuring MLL?

also, how many hours?
batpig's Avatar batpig 05:34 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiotitis View Post

Oh btw - I noticed something really strange. Changing the brightness (or contrast, color...) on the PS3 input changed the setting on my cable input too. So the brightness change to 58 on HDM1-1 also changed it automatically on HDMi-2. For THX. Did not try with the other modes. But I thought that was very odd.

On Panasonic sets, AFAIK only the "Custom" picture setting is memorized by INPUT. The other presets are GLOBAL for all inputs.
jackal2001's Avatar jackal2001 05:40 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

did you follow the procedure above (letting the meter warm up for 30+ minutes and THEN recalibrating the "internal offsets") when measuring MLL?

also, how many hours?

Sorry I did not. I didn't notice that right away. I will do it again tomorrow night. Not sure what you are talking about "internal offsets". I followed the instructions about putting the meter on the inside of a black dvd case in a pitch black room and just hit the calibrate button in the software. My tv was warmed up for at least an hour.
I have no idea of the actual number of hours on my set as the aboard was replaced, resetting the hours. It is well over 1500 I know for sure.
batpig's Avatar batpig 05:43 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:


I followed the instructions about putting the meter on the inside of a black dvd case in a pitch black room and just hit the calibrate button in the software.

that's what I'm talking about
dukic's Avatar dukic 05:56 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigdaddye View Post

then why am i just now seeing it? i had never noticed this until about a month or so ago and like i stated it's not just white scenes, but bright scenes as well. then the whole IR,black level doesn't help either.


I do not know, maybe you did not notice it before.
I can tell you that I noticed it from get go, and not only that but I can see flickering on any plasma, Panasonic,Samsung, you name it.
Put the white slide on or change adv. settings to 48Hz and you are going to see flickering all the time.
Here is a little bit of research for you:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasm...n-g10-x10.html

http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasm...c-flicker.html

Apparently according to the guy who started that thread people that are nearsighted(I am the "lucky" one too) notice it more, so maybe you should see eye specialist.

EDIT: I forgot the most important thing- if they ramp up refreshing rate from 60Hz to 96,120 or at least 72Hz flickering would be gone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

Hmm, I called Panny about this very issue today & they are sending someone to look at it. The fact that it occurs on any type of source, HD Cable or DVD , Hi Def rips etc. seemed to concern them a bit. I'm the same as Bigdaddye with it on bright scenes, sky etc & it is very distracting at times. So the tv is working normally with all of that flicker/brightness shifting regularly? Oh well I've got white blotches about the size of $1 coins that show up when watching hockey as well in the middle of the screen too.

This is what pisses me off. They should not be concerned become the should KNOW that their plasma TV's flickers. It just shows how customer service does not know s... about what engineering department produce.
Yes, flickering is "normal" although it should not be.
Funny thing that you mentioned "white blotches about the size of $1 coins", because I have four of them in the middle line of my screen.
Oh, well, economy situation and quality(or lack of it) does really go hand in hand.
mmoh00's Avatar mmoh00 05:58 PM 02-26-2010
jackal, your 0.032 reading is very high and the fact that you are using HTPC instead of a BD player makes me wonder if you have a proper setup for MLL measurement.


BTW, does anyone know if the 0% IRE pattern uses the 0 level or the 'reference' black level of 16? I know it shouldn't matter for MLL measurement if the brightness setting is properly set but I'm just curious.
batpig's Avatar batpig 06:02 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:


jackal, your 0.032 reading is very high

agreed. currently, the only readings in the "database" above 0.025 are:

1) Audiotitus's original (now "discredited" ) 0.028 reading
2) slosvt's 50G10 at 0.030 (also a little suspect due to i1 Pro, and the 48/60Hz thing)
3) donnymac57's 0.027 on his 50V10 with 2000+ hours (measured with a C5 so probably OK)

discarding those, it looks like the max "plateau" is around 0.023-0.025....
gregmp's Avatar gregmp 06:05 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinea View Post

Sony's ACE on Medium setting doesn't look that bad... You can still see the details of shadows pretty well. I just watched the Half-Blood Prince last night, which has a lot of dark scenes, and it looked great. It only looks horrendous when you have ACE up on High and the Black contrast on High too. Then not only do you have half the face being black, you also have annoying auto-dimming at every single dark scene.

We spent a lot of time trying to get the blacks on my brother's Viera to look like mine. We just couldn't do it. I really don't think the Panasonic plasmas can get as dark as the newer Bravias. I'm going to be returning my EX500 for an NX700/800 though, as I liked Bravia Engine 3's skin tone reproduction more. The NX series has even better blacks, although some of that might be due to the glass.

Fundamentally, the advantages of plasmas over LCDs are getting smaller and smaller. Issues like rising blacks are really final kicks in the bucket.

How many BANDAIDS does it take to make an LCD look "not that bad"????

LOOK... Put the LCD in "pure" mode. Turn off all the AUTO this and SONY or ACE that and put it side by side with the Panny. Use a meter and see what happens.

I'm at an elevated 0.018ft-L and the G10 has perfect calibrated color, gamma, light output and 1800:1 real contrast ratio in THX mode. It can go way higher in non-THX modes. All Bullcrap features turned off.

Fake black levels no make a good display my son.
jackal2001's Avatar jackal2001 06:06 PM 02-26-2010
According to Panny, don't they measure black with NO signal to the TV on a dead input? I can try that.

I am waiting for my brothers PS3 to get retruned from repair so I can use that for normal TV calibration.

In my PRO settings for the HTPC calibration, I had to bump some of them up into the 20s.
Orta's Avatar Orta 06:10 PM 02-26-2010
This is the procedure I have used to take my measurements:

1. Display full screen Live Action content for around 30 min.
2. Meter is in measuring position on the screen during this time.
3. Make room pitch black--Turn off TV and set laptop BL to lowest setting. Wait til midnight if you have to.
4. I personally use a 10' USB Extender Cable for comfort and convenience. This also has the benefit of keeping the laptop a good distance away from the TV and meter during Zeroing and Reading.
5. I place the meter on the pedestal stand for Zeroing.
6. Turn on TV, place meter on screen in measuring position.
7. Display the 0% Grayscale Pattern in AVSHD709
8. Take all 11 Grayscale readings of the 0% pattern.

FWIW, I have also done measures of a black JPEG viewed through PS3 and a blank input. So long as there is no activation noise/dithering visible on black, I don't believe this would make any difference. This is something you should check for jackal. Display your black source and get really close to the screen looking for dancing red and green pixel firings. If you see them you're not measuring the MLL.
gregmp's Avatar gregmp 06:11 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Yep, it is normal, especially with Hockey.


Use THX/Cinema mode or turn down your contrast. It will stop the ABL from kicking in.
dukic's Avatar dukic 06:18 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

Use THX/Cinema mode or turn down your contrast. It will stop the ABL from kicking in.

I think it is refresh rate that cause flickering not ABL.
gregmp's Avatar gregmp 06:27 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukic View Post

I think it is refresh rate that cause flickering not ABL.

Well a 60HZ flicker is constant on a white screen. An ABL flicker will be very inconsistent and more noticable rise and fall of brightness. It will not happen at lower contrast settings.
gregmp's Avatar gregmp 06:28 PM 02-26-2010
You should always warm up any TV type for 30 minutes before doing any critical measurements.
dukic's Avatar dukic 06:32 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

Well a 60HZ flicker is constant on a white screen. An ABL flicker will be very inconsistent and more noticable rise and fall of brightness. It will not happen at lower contrast settings.

I do agree, the flicker that I see is constant on bright screen and looks the same as flicker on 48Hz settings, only less noticeable.
AtlPaul's Avatar AtlPaul 06:41 PM 02-26-2010
Is the topic flickering or rising black levels?
batpig's Avatar batpig 06:43 PM 02-26-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

This is the procedure I have used to take my measurements:

1. Display full screen Live Action content for around 30 min.
2. Meter is in measuring position on the screen during this time.
3. Make room pitch black--Turn off TV and set laptop BL to lowest setting. Wait til midnight if you have to.
4. I personally use a 10' USB Extender Cable for comfort and convenience. This also has the benefit of keeping the laptop a good distance away from the TV and meter during Zeroing and Reading.
5. I place the meter on the pedestal stand for Zeroing.
6. Turn on TV, place meter on screen in measuring position.
7. Display the 0% Grayscale Pattern in AVSHD709
8. Take all 11 Grayscale readings of the 0% pattern.

out of curiosity, why do you turn the TV off after warm up?

my procedure is pretty similar, but I don't turn off the TV, I just remove the probe from the screen and take it to a "dark place" and do the calibration, then place it back on the screen.

I usually do the grayscale but then I get IR afterwards from the white window patterns, so that first black measurement has to count!
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