Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 07:37 AM
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They have this black level settings right? Light or Dark. So they can control black there right? There must be some number they can tweak there to satisfy those who have elevated black levels.
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post #542 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

They have this black level settings right? Light or Dark. So they can control black there right? There must be some number they can tweak there to satisfy those who have elevated black levels.

All that does is change the shadow details, the dark setting crushes them into oblivion, every calibration I have seen leaves them at the light setting.

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post #543 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Yea, mll's are the same for both the light and dark setting. This is likely something they can control though. The cycle that occurs when you unit is first powered on spikes the mll's really high (with no dithering/activation noise), then really low (original levels), then settles at the inflated levels somewhere in between.
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post #544 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 02:37 PM
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Just a fwiw, been out of the country for a while, for those new to this thread:

My 46G10 has about 1800 hours on it. Using an enhanced Spyder3, I have seen no increase in measured black levels since my first calibration at about 140 hours.

Also, I have a brand new 54G10 that has less than 50 hours on it (I've not been able to run the breakin slides do to being away for a while.) When I put the two TVs side by side, with the same video running on both, same patterns, etc. I cannot see a difference between the 50 hour G10 and the 1800 G10.

I am NOT saying that Orta or anyone else doesn't have a real issue. Just saying for those who are claiming this happens to all G10s - it apparently doesn't. Maybe it will happen to mine in the future, but not so far. I love the picture on my G10s at least as much now as I did when I first got them.

Again, FWIW.
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post #545 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Just saying for those who are claiming this happens to all G10s - it apparently doesn't.

I am with you on that. Only very few users are affected.
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post #546 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 02:57 PM
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Interesting, Jeff.

Now maybe we can get some real data by listing model type/size, build dates, and serial numbers (without the last two digits but with any suffix letter) along with comment about noticed/not-noticed black level increase.

Larry
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post #547 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Just a fwiw, been out of the country for a while, for those new to this thread:

My 46G10 has about 1800 hours on it. Using an enhanced Spyder3, I have seen no increase in measured black levels since my first calibration at about 140 hours.

Also, I have a brand new 54G10 that has less than 50 hours on it (I've not been able to run the breakin slides do to being away for a while.) When I put the two TVs side by side, with the same video running on both, same patterns, etc. I cannot see a difference between the 50 hour G10 and the 1800 G10.

I am NOT saying that Orta or anyone else doesn't have a real issue. Just saying for those who are claiming this happens to all G10s - it apparently doesn't. Maybe it will happen to mine in the future, but not so far. I love the picture on my G10s at least as much now as I did when I first got them.

Again, FWIW.

This is definitely good to hear. I have a tech coming out Wednesday to take a look at my set, i'll post back then.
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post #548 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 06:01 PM
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Other users have mentioned a firmware update today for several of the Panasonic units. Have you updated your firmware yet to see if maybe by luck chance it helped your case?
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post #549 of 11210 Old 11-02-2009, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

Other users have mentioned a firmware update today for several of the Panasonic units. Have you updated your firmware yet to see if maybe by luck chance it helped your case?

Could you link me to where i can download it? or the thread you saw it mentioned in?

Thanks.

EDIT*

Nevermind, i found out it's available through Viera Cast. I don't think it fixed my black level elevation issue. However, i wonder could this be the update that has the THX fix in it?
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post #550 of 11210 Old 11-03-2009, 05:02 AM
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for what model is the firmware?
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post #551 of 11210 Old 11-03-2009, 12:53 PM
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So far only EU units have gotten the THX firmware fix, which is supposed to fix the yellowish skin look, low red luminance and the bluish magenta. Panasonic are saying they are not sure if they are releasing it for the US units, which is BS!
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post #552 of 11210 Old 11-03-2009, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

So far only EU units have gotten the THX firmware fix, which is supposed to fix the yellowish skin look, low red luminance and the bluish magenta. Panasonic are saying they are not sure if they are releasing it for the US units, which is BS!

Did you get a chance to talk to them? But rightnow custom settings is doing more than a decent job.
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post #553 of 11210 Old 11-03-2009, 05:15 PM
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does this effect the TH-58PZ800U?

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #554 of 11210 Old 11-03-2009, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Did you get a chance to talk to them? But rightnow custom settings is doing more than a decent job.

I'm finding game the mode of choice for my viewing since my blacks went south...it's vibrant imaging and fast response time tends to make up for the crummy low bit rate feed of my cable cos. HD channels as well as help out the blacks....linda led lcd looking though...

gam3
contrast 84
brightness 44
color 50
tint 0
sharpness 50
warm 2
everything else off
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post #555 of 11210 Old 11-03-2009, 07:39 PM
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does this effect the TH-58PZ800U?

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #556 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 12:46 PM
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FWIW,

Does Panasonic specify a MLL for their neoPDP panels? They tout their long life, 100,000 hrs use to half brightness. From this, I assume they specify Max luminance level in some way. If they also specify a MLL, and these panels undergo an increase in that level, would that then become a warranty issue?

Wes
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post #557 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsokolosky View Post

FWIW,

Does Panasonic specify a MLL for their neoPDP panels? They tout their long life, 100,000 hrs use to half brightness. From this, I assume they specify Max luminance level in some way. If they also specify a MLL, and these panels undergo an increase in that level, would that then become a warranty issue?

Wes

Nope they don't. You'd have to also specify which meter you measure it with, which conditions, etc.

I REALLY wish some other people would post before/after measurements on here!
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post #558 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 02:17 PM
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Also, people saying their TV has great blacks when playing TV footage or movies but it glows gray when no signal, it's just your eyes getting used to the darkness and can see the glow coming from the panel, otherwise it's the same level of darkness. I've played black slides and they were the same darkness as the no input screen.
Even the pioneers glow gray in a completely dark room with no signal! I am not saying some don't have this issue but we need more data on TVs without IR being a factor as well (have it off for a couple of hours).
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post #559 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 02:28 PM
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Ex - I have to disagree. I can pause content at the time of transition between commercial and content with my DVR and this non-content screen is definitely a medium shade of gray.

If I bring up the program guide or list of recorded shows where the content box is 4:3 and displayed as such, the black bars on the side are black. Dark black. If I turn out all lighting in the room and give my eyes 30-40 seconds to adjust to the darkness, I can see the blacks are only a shade or two lighter than the television's surround which is black. When I switch back to the transition (no input), the screen returns to gray and is like turning on a 25 watt light bulb with it's light output.

David Freeman
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post #560 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 03:27 PM
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David,

What you are witnessing is the result of the floating black level that Panasonic uses in all picture modes other than Cinema or THX.

Larry
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post #561 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moemoney View Post

I think most of u are just seeing things. The black bars on this set will never be as dark as the bezel. Unless you have the proper equipment to justify these claims. Don't worry about it. I have the G10 and it has about four hundred hours on it. I have D-nice's break-in setting running the slides for a 150 hours. I also have an Pioneer 5020 and a samsung PN50a650. The black levels are still the same. Much darker than the samung and not as quite as dark as the Pioneer. So people please enjoy your set and please don't scare others from a very nice plasma. Second only to pioneer.

So, moemoney, would you say a 10% lighter than black is a normal level for the s1 series? Mine has been that way since I purchased it for about 40 hours of use so far. I was surprised at first how bright black actually was, but again compared to other set it is still darker.
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post #562 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 10:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

David,

What you are witnessing is the result of the floating black level that Panasonic uses in all picture modes other than Cinema or THX.

Larry

So far i owned a s1 and now have a g10 and on these Neo-pdp, there is no floating blacks, on any mode. My 50x1 had floating blacks, but not on the Neo ones.
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post #563 of 11210 Old 11-04-2009, 10:57 PM
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I don't know what to think anymore. It's been quite a while since I got the tv so I can't trust my memory on how it used to look, but feeding it an all black signal in a dark room produces a REALLY bright gray.

It actually looks a lot like the picture in this post.

If I have them come out and look at it, what are they going to be able to do for me? Assuming they come during the day, they probably won't even be able to see the issue.
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post #564 of 11210 Old 11-05-2009, 10:54 AM
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Another FWIW,

CNet found this behavior in a Samsung 50B650 when turning on the Cinema Smooth mode:

"We did encounter one significant black level snafu, however. When we engaged the "Cinema Smooth" mode in the Film Mode menu, which is designed to help preserve the correct frame rate of film with 1080p/24 sources, black levels rose significantly...Switching Film Mode back to Off didn't return the black levels to their correct, calibrated state; to do so we had to stop playback entirely, which sent a normal 1080p/60 source to the TV and disengaged Cinema Smooth. Needless to say this is unusual behavior..."

The G10s and V10s have a mode for displaying 24p material also. Is the MLL increase a function of whether that mode is on or off??

Just a thought.

Wes
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post #565 of 11210 Old 11-05-2009, 11:31 AM
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Well FWIW my V10 looks like the picture linked to in post 564 by pj325is when it is turned off. I think this may just be the AR that I am seeing. My TV has less than 100 hours on it and currently the blacks look black when watching it.

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post #566 of 11210 Old 11-05-2009, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pj325is View Post

I don't know what to think anymore. It's been quite a while since I got the tv so I can't trust my memory on how it used to look, but feeding it an all black signal in a dark room produces a REALLY bright gray.

It actually looks a lot like the picture in this post.

If I have them come out and look at it, what are they going to be able to do for me? Assuming they come during the day, they probably won't even be able to see the issue.

That's about what my brand new 54G10 looks like, in a dark room, right out of the box with a no-input signal, fwiw.

I.e. - you'll drive yourself crazy just trying to look at the TV and figure this out without measurements. If you were happy with your TV and picture before reading this thread don't make yourself unhappy!
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post #567 of 11210 Old 11-05-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

David,

What you are witnessing is the result of the floating black level that Panasonic uses in all picture modes other than Cinema or THX.

Larry

Thanks Larry. I was unaware of the floating blacks. I am using Custom with the 40ftl settings from CO1 on the V10 picture settings thread.

I enjoy a lot of old movies, lots in black and white. On really dark scenes the blacks still look black. For the first time, I am using the gray bars on 4:3 content instead of black so I no longer have those blacks for reference. The only time I see the gray screen is when there is no input or as I mentioned the transition from broadcast content (Law & Order) to commercial or vice versa. It appears to go right back to the deeper black as soon as the unit has content to display.

Will try some THX over the weekend and see what if any differences I can detect.

David Freeman
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post #568 of 11210 Old 11-06-2009, 06:28 AM
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I finally reached the magical hour mark in my 42" G10. On letterbox black bars on movies shown in OAR(Fios) and on Blu-ray, the black levels have doubled. They used to be near Kuro black and at approximatley 285 hours they switched abruptly to a glowing gray. I don't have any equipment to measure, but it is totally obvious to the naked eye. It looks as bad now as the average Plasma did 3-4 years ago and a little worse than most current LCD's. When new, the blacks were pretty close to my Kuro, not quite there, but pretty close. This is happening both in THX and Custom mode.
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post #569 of 11210 Old 11-06-2009, 07:40 AM
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I'm wondering if it might be helpful if everyone who is experiencing the increased black level make a quick post with details about their tv. Maybe if this is a real problem we can then isolate it to only certain G10's (by manufacture date, or maybe by size class).

Something like this:

1) manufacturer date
2) how many hours on the tv when problem was noticed
3) size of tv
4) whether or not break in slides were used

...etc.

Maybe someone else can also come up with other details that would be more helpful. Just trying to see if we can get somewhere with this issue--maybe find a connection to why this is happening.

TC-P46G10 build date May 2009
Settings and Calibration Reports
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post #570 of 11210 Old 11-06-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

I'm wondering if it might be helpful if everyone who is experiencing the increased black level make a quick post with details about their tv. Maybe if this is a real problem we can then isolate it to only certain G10's (by manufacture date, or maybe by size class).


This is actually a great idea. Here i'll post my details.

1) Model/Size of TV: Panasonic TC-P42G10
2) Date Manufactured: Feb. 2009
3) Hours used on TV when the black elevation occured: 250hrs
4) Were the Break-In slides used?: Yes
5) Did you enter the Service Menu?: Yes
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