Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 205 - AVS Forum
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post #6121 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

Tony
I noticed this as well as i posted the same thing a few pages back.

I have the highest recorded black levels at .034FtL and I would like my TV replaced or repaired. My the time I get home from work and settle down to watch TV it is dark outside. No need to waste more electricity by turning on all the lights. I watch tv in the dark and I love to watch movies that are all 2.35:1 now adays.
It really blows my mind how panny advertises these tvs as having infinate black and they are not.
Personally if I would have known this would happen, I would have spent the extra money on a Pioneer instead of a panny. At the time everyone was saying that the panny was just as good as the pioneer, so why spend the extra money.
I don't have the money now to spend 5K+ on a pioneer from egay. It is a shame they are not making them anymore as in 2 years from now I would have gotten one.
Now don't get me wrong, the picture itself is very nice when it fills the whole screen, but I am not happy when I'm watching a movie and the black bars are gray.

jackal - I hear you and it appears we have a lot in common with our situations! I have no clue what my black levels are but, being an engineer by trade, I am anal and cringe everytime I turn on the TV hoping that my blacks won't be gray! I too watch only use my Panny at night in a dedicated home theater (i.e., dark room) and I too would've gone the Pioneer route had I known about this in advance! Worst case I would've spent much less on a different plasma and sold it in a few years. I went with the "V" line because it was supposed to be the best and I would take a killing if I tried to sell it now. I share your pain...

I still want to get a hold of that review between 2/9 and 3/2 as I've been compiling as much info as possible to have in case I feel I need to pursue some sort of legal route down the road! Dumb me for not printing it out when I had the chance 9on top of felling dumb for buying the TV)! As you, I wonder why CNET took a softer stance as of yesterday. I may give David K at CNET an email and ask him...
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post #6122 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyS View Post

Does anyone have a copy of the CNET review of the TC-P50V10 from 2/9 to 3/2? I'm looking for the one with David Katzmaier's February 9th Editor's Note in which he states something like "...we do not recommend buying this TV..." and "...we have removed our Editor's Choice Award..." The 3/3 Editor's note, that replaced the 2/9 one states "As a result, we don't feel confident that the initial picture quality of this TV, as described in the review below, can be maintained over the course of its lifetime, and therefore find it difficult to recommend." It just seems like they are taking a softer stance now and really makes me wonder why? Anyway, if anyone has a copy (pdf?) could you post it or PM it to me? I didn't get around to printing it as I didn't expect CNET to change their 2/9 Editor's Note. Thanks in advance!


All I can find is the link to the 2/9 Cnet article following the Bob Perry 'Oops, I stepped on a landmine' reply:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10449939-1.html
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post #6123 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 06:55 AM
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Editors' Note, February 4, 2010:
According to user reports, which first surfaced on enthusiast Web site AVS Forum, this Panasonic plasma may lose black level performance noticeably over time. Panasonic has issued statement admitting to changes over time, but saying the display's performance is still "excellent." CNET reviewers have not been able to verify or refute either claim.

In response to complaints reporting a loss in black level performance in its plasma TVs over time, Panasonic has issued a statement.

It admitted that "background brightness will increase," but described the change as "automatic" over the TVs' lifespan and part of normal operation in order to "achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set."

It also said that newer plasma TVs will include a "more gradual change in Black Level over time," but made no mention of a fix for existing plasma TVs, whose owners first noted the issue at enthusiast Web site AVS forum.

Here's the entire statement as e-mailed to CNET, entitled "Automatic Control of Contrast over Operational Lifetime."

"Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs deliver exceptional picture performance throughout the lifetime of these products. Various elements and material characteristics of all electronic displays change with use over time. In order to achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set, Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours.

As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value. After several years of typical use, the internal material characteristics will stabilize and no additional automatic voltage adjustments are required. The Black Level at this stabilized point will yield excellent picture performance.

The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time."

More questions than answers
I first contacted Panasonic seeking comment on January 11 , and the company has not responded until this statement, which was e-mailed to me Wednesday, February 3. Though arguably better than silence, the statement leaves too many major questions unanswered.

I have followed up with Panasonic seeking those answers, asking, among other questions, if/when a fix is planned for current TVs to address owner complaints; at what "predetermined intervals" do the the voltages increase; when do the materials stabilize; what the quantitative difference is between the initial black level and the "stabilized point"; which are the "newest Viera plasma HDTVs" referred to in the statement; and what should owners do who are unsatisfied with the picture quality of their TVs. I'll update this story when I receive a reply.

The big picture for plasma
As I mentioned in the original report, I haven't seen a Panasonic plasma affected by the lighter black levels yet, so it's impossible for me to reply to the big question of whether the loss of black level performance is significant enough to make the TV pale in comparison to its competitors. Many eyewitnesses believe it is, judging from the original thread at AVS forum and from a few of the comments on the report, but other owners are less definitive or report no change.

I began a long-term test using two 2009 Panasonic plasmas in my lab, but it will be at least a month before I can expect to notice any change in black level. Of course, I'll report back when that happens.

I'll also report that since 2005, my main TV at home has been a Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK plasma, and I've never noticed a change in its black level performance. At CNET, we didn't hear of this issue until we read the reports on AVS forum, and to our knowledge, past Panasonic plasmas, as well as models by LG, Pioneer and Samsung, have delivered basically consistent black levels over time.

That's why, despite Panasonic's statement that "all electronic displays change with use over time" and that after said change its sets still have "excellent picture performance," I tend to believe owners who describe the black level increase in the company's latest plasmas as unusual and ultimately detrimental to picture quality.

A quote included in my original report accords perfectly with much of Panasonic's eventual statement, enforcing that belief. In it a respected calibrator who goes by the screen name D-Nice, citing sources within the company, called the too-aggressive voltage increase a "goof" on the part of Panasonic engineering. The closest Panasonic has come to admitting as much is contained in its reference to an improved, more gradual change in new models.

Now what?
My main job at CNET is to provide buying advice regarding TVs, and Panasonic plasmas were one of my go-to recommendations. The 50-inch G10 was the most popular TV on CNET during 2009, and the V10 series earned the only Editors' Choice award I handed out to any flat-panel TV last year. In fact, after I reviewed the 2009 models, my dad bought a TC-P42X1, two of my colleagues at CNET, Matthew Moskovciak and John Falcone, bought TC-P50G10s and another, David Carnoy, bought a TC-P65S1 (we're keeping tabs on the black levels of those sets, too). It's safe to say that many readers of this Web site did the same thing dad, John, Matt and David did: buy a solid-to-excellent HDTV for a good price, and be perfectly happy with the picture quality. Judging from reader reaction, that happiness may be in jeopardy.

Nothing halts a shopper's reach for his wallet better than doubt, so I believe it's in Panasonic's best interest to answer those lingering questions. Until that happens, it's going to be hard for me to recommend the company's TVs without a degree of uncertainty.

- David Katzmaier reviews HDTVs for CNET

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post #6124 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Ok, here's my result from HCFR. Referred to this guide to set up the i1 LT. Meter warmed on the TV for 30 minutes, then calibrated it in the dark with a black DVD case. Reading taken in pitch black room, 0 IRE pattern from AVS HD 709 Blu-Ray on a PS3...

ftL: 0.017

TC-P46G10
May 2009 build date
1359 hours
FW version 1.29
THX fix installed
No A-board replacement
i1 LT meter used

Unfortunately I don't know what the ftL was back when I first set it up as I only just got the i1 LT. I however cannot perceive any change in black level by looking at it. FWIW I am still very happy with my G10.

Can you tell us what your brightness is set at, too?

Thanks,

Kevin
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post #6125 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

Regarding the voltage rise, is the rise uniform across every phase (initialization, address, sustain, clear) or is one phase in particular taking the voltage hit (particularly initialization or clear)?

The MLL you see in Plasma displays is an unwanted byproduct of the initialization step only (also called the reset step). Any changes to the initialization waveform (voltage, shape, time) will have an effect on MLL.

The address, sustain steps should have zero effect on MLL.

Note: The key to ECC is to completely eliminate any need for an "all cell" initialilzation step.


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Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

Honestly, I don't even know if it's possible to modify voltage per phase but wanted to toss that question out there.

Yes, it is possible.

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post #6126 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:09 AM
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Barring the Pioneer Kuro's, comparisons of initial black levels between Panasonic and other manufacturers are making sense to me now. As some have stated Panasonic has deceived the 2008/2009 owners into thinking we have gotten tv's with better black levels vs. the other manufacturers(be it only for under 1500 hours of use). This has to be Panasonic engineering/management trying to stir up sales. Because after the sudden rise in black levels our sets will be on par with the other crowd of plasma tv manufacturers.

They cooked up the good black levels which only lasts for ~1500 hours or so of use, doing so in trying to impress buyers they have shot themselves in the foot because this temporary great black levels diminishes to quickly for these models. It's a sales gimmick to say the least, they are practicing deceptive acts have made shills out of them. Secret patent on Black levels my foot, they're hiding their design flaws

There's nothing like a Pioneer Kuro

Panasonic deceived us! You name it whatever Panasonic manufactures, Never ever will I buy a Panasonic product in the future!
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post #6127 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

Barring the Pioneer Kuro's, comparisons of initial black levels between Panasonic and other manufacturers are making sense to me now. As some have stated Panasonic has deceived the 2008/2009 owners into thinking we have gotten tv's with better black levels vs. the other manufacturers(be it only for under 1500 hours of use). This has to be Panasonic engineering/management trying to stir up sales. Because after the sudden rise in black levels our sets will be on par with the other crowd of plasma tv manufacturers.

They cooked up the good black levels which only lasts for ~1500 hours or so of use, doing so in trying to impress buyers they have shot themselves in the foot because this temporary great black levels diminishes to quickly for these models.

There's nothing like a Pioneer Kuro

Panasonic deceived us! You name it whatever Panasonic manufactures, Never ever will I buy a Panasonic product in the future!

Classic "bait and switch"!

I bought the 42G10 for our bedroom (ie, predominately "lights out" viewing)based on their claimed "superior" black level compared to the competition. Had I KNOWN about these increased levels over such a short time frame, I would have considered other TV's.

I have measured my set at 150 hrs, .015fl. I have a feeling at 1500 hrs, I might be the new record holder at over .040fl. But who knows!

Kevin
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post #6128 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The MLL you see in Plasma displays is an unwanted byproduct of the initialization step only (also called the reset step). Any changes to the initialization waveform (voltage, shape, time) will have an effect on MLL.

The address, sustain steps should have zero effect on MLL.

Note: The key to ECC is to completely eliminate any need for an "all cell" initialilzation step.

So, theoretically, the voltage of the initialization pulse (and nothing else) could be modified if there was a physical adjuster included on the board that drives the panel? edit: Assuming the shape & time of said pulse are unaffected.
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post #6129 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MountainMan10 View Post

I have to laugh sometimes at this thread.

Poster A: My set is fine.
Poster B: How do you know your TV is fine if you don't have a meter?
Poster C: If you display a black screen in a dark room you can tell.

Wow. I guess if you need a meter to tell it doesn't matter that much. If you have to watch a black screen in a dark room it probably doesn't matter that much.

Before I get flamed, I understand the frustration and I also would be upset if my plasma looked as bad as my LCD's. I certainly hope that Panasonic can come up with a firmware fix. And I also hope that my black levels don't rise to the level of an LCD.

For the record I have a TC-P50S1. I measured my in the dark with an i1. With 660 hours my reading was 0.019. This puts me right where the chart says I should be so I guess I have the problem. I hope the right person sees this and adds this data point. I don't feel like searching through pages of conspiracy theories to find the correct person to PM.

My LCD tvs measure more like .035 or higher so even at 0.024 the plasma will be better. With default settings they are more like 0.050.

I watched Sherlock Holmes in a theatre a few weeks ago. The theatre screen was worse than my LCD. Must have been about 0.080.

People on this thread have been asking for meter readings from others who think that they don't have the problem because its fully understood that some people don't NOTICE the rise, even it it has risen. A metered reading would allow us to confirm that this is happening across all 2009 Panasonics (which seems to have been all but confirmed at this point). There is no dispute that some people don't NOTICE the rise in black levels.

The fact is that some of us DO see an obvious and visible performance gap between .007 and .019. But you still need a metered measurement to convey that to the rest of the world. Not everybody is comparing their Panasonic to low-end LCDs. Some of us have the Panasonics in secondary rooms, with Kuros in main rooms. I can assure you that most people who walk from one dark room with a Kuro to another dark room with a Panasonic with .019 will notice the difference. And if they don't, they never should have paid the premium for a Kuro in the first place.
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post #6130 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Nickff View Post

Hello?

My friend is considering purchasing a TC-P65S1. Is this model affected by the rising black level issue? Would you recommend he purchase something else?

I am not familiar with Panasonic's plasmas and he doesn't follow the goings-on in home theater.

This is not the recommended thread to ask that question.
You can make a better decision reading the customer reviews of people that actually bought and own the TV that have not read the AVS forum yet. Check out the customer reviews in Best Buy or Amazon. I am positive that you can get more honest opinions there.
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post #6131 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:31 AM
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Yes, if you like opinions based on being uninformed of the issue or deliberately whistling past the graveyard, then by all means rely on those reviews.

What a crock! How many people post reviews after one week of ownership? One Month? Probably the great majority. Guilty of it myself through the years. But time has a way of sniffing out the real from the 'new' smell. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
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post #6132 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

So, theoretically, the voltage of the initialization pulse (and nothing else) could be modified if there was a physical adjuster included on the board that drives the panel?

It is possible that waveforms are generated purely by hardware but firmware is more likely IMO. Even if it was pure hardware generated I doubt there would be a physical adjuster similar to what you find on commercial pulse generators (e.g. keithley).

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The black level on my TC-P42C1 @ 530 hrs, taken with my blackberry in a darkened room, using D-Nice's offsets...this set doesn't have a super high contrast ratio, but the blacks are still inky at 530 hrs.

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post #6134 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:42 AM
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I am positive that you can get more honest opinions there.

I gotta scratch my head on this one. So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???
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post #6135 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:46 AM
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i watched sherlock holmes in a theatre a few weeks ago. The theatre screen was worse than my lcd. Must have been about 0.080.

+1

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post #6136 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:50 AM
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my last rant,

not only is Panasonic's Black Level design Patent a patent of deception but I have categorized their Infinite Black Level as another deceptive selling feature, half the time it doesn't work and mind you this feature only works in Vivid Mode and only with a blank input or pure black feed(what is the use of this feature if it only works with a blank input or pure black feed?).

2 outright deceptive acts on features that were cooked up by management/engineers at Panasonic to increase sales! Even with a slow gradual increase in Black levels is considered to me being a deceptive act, do you see Samsung, Vizio, or any other plasma manufacturer touting great black levels? No they are not, they don't deceive their potential buyers, you more or less going to get what you bought. These other brands are not trying to play the deception game!

Panasonic is worse than Nissan and Toyota, these car companies did not design defective gas pedas or mats to deceive buyers into thinking they have a better product.
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post #6137 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wopino View Post

The black level on my TC-P42C1 @ 530 hrs, taken with my blackberry in a darkened room, using D-Nice's offsets...this set doesn't have a super high contrast ratio, but the blacks are still inky at 530 hrs.

Those are definitely inky blacks*!

*Inky as defined by random settings from a dinky little blackberry camera transferred to a web server, linked on avsforum and viewed on some random uncalibrated LCD monitor.
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post #6138 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:52 AM
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I gotta scratch my head on this one. So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???

+1

I don't get it. There are actual calibrators on this site like yourself who are very aware of the issue and the fanboys still post as they do.

Unfortunately, plasma is currently in a state of limbo. I hope 2010 models will restore some real measure of confidence to the playing field.
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post #6139 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:55 AM
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Panasonic is worse than Nissan and Toyota, these car companies did not design defective gas pedas or mats to deceive buyers into thinking they have a better product.

And if the latest reports of vehicle misbehavior after repair are true, then the problem is with the electronic control modules, as many have suspected all along.
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post #6140 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:57 AM
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So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Absolutely correct. And that is my honest opinion.

Quote:


Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???

I have owned several TVs through the years and have agreed with the negative reports on the bad ones. The worst one, for its price, was my 62" Mitsubishi DLP. But for my 58S1, I can honestly say that for its price, I am satisfied with its performance so far. I have more than 1,000 hours on it now and there is absolutely no difference in PQ that I can tell.
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post #6141 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

Barring the Pioneer Kuro's, comparisons of initial black levels between Panasonic and other manufacturers are making sense to me now. As some have stated Panasonic has deceived the 2008/2009 owners into thinking we have gotten tv's with better black levels vs. the other manufacturers(be it only for under 1500 hours of use). This has to be Panasonic engineering/management trying to stir up sales. Because after the sudden rise in black levels our sets will be on par with the other crowd of plasma tv manufacturers.

They cooked up the good black levels which only lasts for ~1500 hours or so of use, doing so in trying to impress buyers they have shot themselves in the foot because this temporary great black levels diminishes to quickly for these models. It's a sales gimmick to say the least, they are practicing deceptive acts have made shills out of them. Secret patent on Black levels my foot, they're hiding their design flaws

There's nothing like a Pioneer Kuro

Panasonic deceived us! You name it whatever Panasonic manufactures, Never ever will I buy a Panasonic product in the future!

No, they didn't. Do you really think they designed it this way on purpose? A TV that got worse after 1000 hours of use? Seriously? What, exactly, would be their motive? To make you and every other purchaser so pissed off that they'd never buy another Panasonic product again? Gee, that would be a good corporate profit-making strategy, wouldn't it?

They made a mistake - the blew the calculation on how much extra voltage to send through. They may or may not have known about it by the 2009 TV's - if the problem started with the 2008s and only showed up after a bunch of months in use, then the 2009's were probably in production by the time they figured out there MIGHT be a problem. So they started working on the 2010s, figured there was a problem with the speed of the decay, and made it more gradual.

This is a bad design. It is not a purposeful mistake. Conspiracy theories are just silly.
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post #6142 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 07:59 AM
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And if the latest reports of vehicle misbehavior after repair are true, then the problem is with the electronic control modules, as many have suspected all along.

maybe, but did they create the electronic control modules to work this way to deceive the buyers? NO

do they tout they have better electronic control modules as a selling point? NO
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post #6143 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I gotta scratch my head on this one. So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???

Indeed.

Knowledgeable people have taken accurate readings, and Panasonic admits to the design, yet some still refuse to believe it.

It also amazes me to how some can argue that their subjective interpretation has more credibility than actual measurements.

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Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #6144 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:08 AM
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one more time: stop this banter or you will be asked to leave the thread
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post #6145 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jonandabby View Post

No, they didn't. Do you really think they designed it this way on purpose? A TV that got worse after 1000 hours of use? Seriously? What, exactly, would be their motive? To make you and every other purchaser so pissed off that they'd never buy another Panasonic product again? Gee, that would be a good corporate profit-making strategy, wouldn't it?

They made a mistake - the blew the calculation on how much extra voltage to send through. They may or may not have known about it by the 2009 TV's - if the problem started with the 2008s and only showed up after a bunch of months in use, then the 2009's were probably in production by the time they figured out there MIGHT be a problem. So they started working on the 2010s, figured there was a problem with the speed of the decay, and made it more gradual.

This is a bad design. It is not a purposeful mistake. Conspiracy theories are just silly.

Panasonic has admitted that the black levels will rise and that the 2008/2009 models have a noticable rise and that they'll do it more gradually in the 2010 models. This feature be it a fast or slow gradual rise is a deceptive practice! In the end you'll get that black level rise compared to the newly bought set, its a deceptive practice because Panasonics selling point is it's black levels compared to others. And you're not even mentioning the Infinite Black feature which is another deceptive selling point!

Since it is a selling point, it is deceptive patent to make you believe you have bought a set with great black levels, hahaha, be it only for 1500 or so. It doesn't matter how you see my point as in the end you've bought a feature that'll only last for 1500 hours.

It's like buying a car that gets 40 miles/gallon and after nine months of use you get 16 miles/gallon. Could you imagine that car company going down the tubes
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post #6146 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:11 AM
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pochoboy,

I agree. We are on the same page in this regard. I am one of the more 'conspiratorial' types as labeled here on this thread and I'm sure on many ignore lists as well. It is all too convenient for Panasonic to have low MLL at review time and higher MLL after normal usage when you factor in their own admissions. And yet people still bend over backwards and jump through hoops in order to be 'scientific' about this. As if that changes the known facts already in front of us. Is it just a happenstance that new Panny BL looks like older Panny BL after normal use? Where did the Black go? Why was something clearly known by Panasonic to be temporary touted as a selling point? It is deceptive on its face and no amount of "this is only a screw up in the voltage adjustment" can change that. Everyone knows Contrast ratio claims by manufacturers are to be taken with a grain of salt. Panny has simply elevated that to rock salt.

Mark,

Hear you loud and clear.
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post #6147 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:36 AM
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HDGURU also picked up this story together with a response from THX:

http://hdguru.com/cnet-tests-point-t...response/1368/
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post #6148 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zhe zhang View Post

HDGURU also picked up this story together with a response from THX:

http://hdguru.com/cnet-tests-point-t...response/1368/

Glad to see that Panasonic's biggest, most biased cheerleader isn't turning a blind eye to this issue anymore.
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post #6149 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:57 AM
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Ok, so having read about 200 pages of angst over the black levels my question is: "what recourse is available?" The class action law suit is a joke, returning a TV after 500 hours of viewing is not gonna happen and selling it means taking a beating financially. I paid $3900 for my 65"V10, Nov build, and have about 450 hours on it. Never put a meter to it and it looks great for now, but we all know what's gonna happen so, what's the advice on how to proceed? Panny hasn't responed to my e-mail (nice, eh?) and I've yet to read anything other than the typical corporate BS from them. So, other than continuing to complain, whats the course of action?
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post #6150 of 11410 Old 03-04-2010, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhe zhang View Post

HDGURU also picked up this story together with a response from THX:

http://hdguru.com/cnet-tests-point-t...response/1368/

seems to me that emails to THX might get more results than complaining to P

If THX decided to lift its certification that would get their attention
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