Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 208 - AVS Forum
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post #6211 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camster View Post

What's so complicated about it? I think most people understand it. Basically we have a voltage adjustment to maintain the panel's stability over time that also causes an unnecessary rise in MLL netting us undesirable(to some) black levels & we would prefer this wasn't the case.

I appreciate the technical contributions folks are providing. I think it lends support to the case for a required solution. But I think you are of a different mind than most of us. We just want our TV's to perform similar to the way they were when purchased. Most of us think the technical info is useful but I believe it is past it's useful state. Pressure from unhappy consumers & lost revenue will win the day or not in the end.

While I think David from CNET is likely no more capable of doing meter readings than most here he is a media person with influence & none of us here carry that clout.

I think you don't understand that this is a Science Forum and not a complaint blog. Sure everyone wants a solution but this has developed into a witch hunt and has painted Panasonic into a corner.

With the lawyers now involved in a lawsuit we are in essence screwed. Panasonic cannot offer a fix without admitting fault.

Panasonic calls it a designed characterstic operating as it should. I think the engineer and his manager may jump off the building for this marvelous idea and they patented it. Can't believe anyone would infringe on it.

They just need to change their advertising to reflect the current characteristic of the TV. Anyone want to offer their ideas on what it should be.
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post #6212 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I gotta scratch my head on this one. So, AVS members do not provide honest opinions? AVS members are less honest than other websites?

Perhaps the issue here is you do not like all of the negative posts regarding a product that you purchased???

Being a well respected member and a very highly regarded pro calibrator as well, I would really love to hear if you have gone back to any Samsung & LG plasma calibrations you did when new and took new readings on black levels to see if the black levels have risen on them as well. Some seem to be saying they do it also and others are saying they do not.

Is it possible for someone like you with your wealth of experience and solid rep to check a couple of prior sets you calibrated to see if this is happening with them AT ALL?

Thanks for doing this if you can as this would certainly help many people who are choosing a plasma this year. I was considering a new one myself, but I also want to help friends/relatives make the best choice that are planning to buy a plasma in 2010. I am also curious if blacks get lighter on LCDs after the LCDs age and that could be causing the "cloudy screens" many seem to complain about.

Thanks in advance if you can do this (or already did this and I missed it).

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post #6213 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

I think you don't understand that this is a Science Forum and not a complaint blog. Sure everyone wants a solution but this has developed into a witch hunt and has painted Panasonic into a corner.

With the lawyers now involved in a lawsuit we are in essence screwed. Panasonic cannot offer a fix without admitting fault.

Panasonic calls it a designed characterstic operating as it should. I think the engineer and his manager may jump off the building for this marvelous idea and they patented it. Can't believe anyone would infringe on it.

They just need to change their advertising to reflect the current characteristic of the TV. Anyone want to offer their ideas on what it should be.

Much like jeans have come into vogue being acid washed, faded, or destructed; you could have a really cool "faded plasma"
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post #6214 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by speck9 View Post

from that article

Quote:
Are you going to have across-the-board black level minimum requirements? Minimum contrast ratio requirements? Color gamut minimums?

We do have minimum requirements in all of the key areas that you mention and many more.

so theoretically...there could be some very bare minimum requirements in the THX spec. Although I would bet even the panels that rise probably fall within their spec. Anyone familiar with THX specs or SMTPE recommendations on black levels?

Can we not ask THX what the contrast ratio and MLL should be for their Rec 709 spec. Then if the Panasonics do not meet it, they should have some obligation to fix it IF THX revokes their certification till its addressed. Some obligation to the customer too, since the set we purchased is now NOT meeting their specs.

After reading drfreeman's post, it struck me that it would have been very interesting, had Panasonic to fix/replace sets BEFORE this became a big issue. Unfortunately, this got out of hand (rightfully) before they even got to fix a set.

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post #6215 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pochoboy View Post

my last rant,

not only is Panasonic's Black Level design Patent a patent of deception but I have categorized their Infinite Black Level as another deceptive selling feature, half the time it doesn't work and mind you this feature only works in Vivid Mode and only with a blank input or pure black feed(what is the use of this feature if it only works with a blank input or pure black feed?).

2 outright deceptive acts on features that were cooked up by management/engineers at Panasonic to increase sales! Even with a slow gradual increase in Black levels is considered to me being a deceptive act, do you see Samsung, Vizio, or any other plasma manufacturer touting great black levels? No they are not, they don't deceive their potential buyers, you more or less going to get what you bought. These other brands are not trying to play the deception game!

Panasonic is worse than Nissan and Toyota, these car companies did not design defective gas pedals or mats to deceive buyers into thinking they have a better product.

So Nissan and Toyota didn't design the gas pedals or mats to deceive buyers? So are you saying they designed them to kill customers? I know I'll take gray bars over a runaway car any day.

I don't view everything happening as a conspiracy so I don't need to wear a aluminum foil hat to prevent the alien radio waves from controlling me. I never believe advertising BS because it is just that. Sometimes sitting around engineering/sales meetings we joked about how we can make this or that a "feature", Buyer beware. Just remember the TV's are designed for the masses and not for the techie so that they can be affordable. Do you really think that 98% of the people really get this.
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post #6216 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

Orta - I wonder if you or MarkRubin would consider promoting this particular forum to the sticky thread area.

I believe having a known problem like this and Panasonic's response front and center would be a great assist to those who journey here in search of information prior to making a purchasing decision.

With Panasonic heavily promoting its 2010 line, especially 3d, AVS Forum will probably experience a good number of occasional visitors just seeking information. Probably many new or occasional visitors directed here through the same type of search that I did.

If I were searching now, I know that having something like this pointed out and easily noticed would be very important to me.

If you do promote this, it might be a decent idea to give it a more generic name. Maybe something like "Black Level Problems with 2008 & 2009 Panasonic Plasmas". Perhaps later to add 2010 if dNice's info regarding their performance is accurate.

An average consumer many not understand what is referred to by "Black Level Doubling" and also would probably have no clue what 11G or 12G were referring to.

I agree with these statements. When I got serious about replacing my old CRT, I started researching plasma/LCD purchase. I typically google for enthusiast forums and this was the first one to pop up. Much of my decision to buy a 46G10 was based on information I found on this forum. There is a lot of great information here, and if Orta could simplify the thread title for non-enthusiasts who come to this site doing research, it might impact their decision on what to purchase. Let the buyer beware...or just let the buyer be aware.
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post #6217 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

So Nissan and Toyota didn't design the gas pedals or mats to deceive buyers? So are you saying they designed them to kill customers? I know I'll take gray bars over a runaway car any day.

This way off topic, but neither of those, thats asinine. The pedals and floor mats were designed to a profit margin, at worst.

The floormats and accelerator pedals are not major selling points of the vehicle.
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post #6218 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 07:44 PM
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This is off topic too, but boy do I miss my CRT RPTV

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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post #6219 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 07:49 PM
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they had their issues too..

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post #6220 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

I think you don't understand that this is a Science Forum and not a complaint blog. Sure everyone wants a solution but this has developed into a witch hunt and has painted Panasonic into a corner.

With the lawyers now involved in a lawsuit we are in essence screwed. Panasonic cannot offer a fix without admitting fault.

Panasonic calls it a designed characterstic operating as it should. I think the engineer and his manager may jump off the building for this marvelous idea and they patented it. Can't believe anyone would infringe on it.

They just need to change their advertising to reflect the current characteristic of the TV. Anyone want to offer their ideas on what it should be.

I'll give it a stab.

Taglines:
Panasonic - Finite Grey
Panasonic - Grey is the new black.
Panasonic - Your years away from Grey . . . we think.
Panasonic - We're running in the black 'cause we've sold a lot of grey
Panasonic - Yeah It's supposed to be like that.
Panasonic - Maybe it's you.
Panasonic - Turn a light on for Christ's sake.


Commercial
Boy: Mr. Owl, how many hours does it take to get elevated blacks?
Owl: Let's find out. One, two, three. Three kid!
Boy: But they said it would take years.
Owl: Go away before I peck your eyes out.
Boy: Thanks Mr. Owl.
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post #6221 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 08:08 PM
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i went to my local sears today and checked out their panasonic plasma display models. The two i looked at was their TC-P46S1 and TC-P58G10, and they both had over 3000hrs because i checked in the service menu. The 58G10 over all picture modes with the contrast at 100 and the brightness at 58 the screen was totally washed out so it was very obvious that it suffers from the black level rise, but the 46S1 had noticeably deeper blacks over all picture inputs with the same settings. I dunno if this helps anything but apparently their 46S1 is taking a more gradual approach, however, i was not able to check the build dates on both sets...both under the bright lighting of the store i was surprised at how noticeable it was, hopefully this helps somebody, i just wanted to share what i saw today. I really hope the people experiencing this get helped out because it is just not right!!!
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post #6222 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dabigwaxy View Post

I'll give it a stab.

Taglines:
Panasonic - Finite Grey
Panasonic - Grey is the new black.
Panasonic - Your years away from Grey . . . we think.
Panasonic - We're running in the black 'cause we've sold a lot of grey
Panasonic - Yeah It's supposed to be like that.
Panasonic - Maybe it's you.
Panasonic - Turn a light on for Christ's sake.


Commercial
Boy: Mr. Owl, how many hours does it take to get elevated blacks?
Owl: Let's find out. One, two, three. Three kid!
Boy: But they said it would take years.
Owl: Go away before I peck your eyes out.
Boy: Thanks Mr. Owl.


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. "
Albert Einstein
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post #6223 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 08:36 PM
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I got the Jefferson's theme song playing in my head.

1145 hours, 50s1

.018 consistent across 10 readings just now. was .016 at 988 hours.

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post #6224 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dabigwaxy View Post

Panasonic - Turn a light on for Christ's sake.

this one is hilarious!!!
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post #6225 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 10:08 PM
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I did a little digging for the sake of digging.

It appears that adjustments can be made on the SC board in regards to voltage and initialization phase time. Two of the voltage specifications are taken from a unique serial number sticker on the back of the PDP itself. It's doubtful those adjustments would do what we desire them to do: decrease MLL. The factory probably tests the amount of power needed to make the panel operational and stamps it on the sticker.
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post #6226 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

I did a little digging for the sake of digging.

It appears that adjustments can be made on the SC board in regards to voltage and initialization phase time. Two of the voltage specifications are taken from a unique serial number sticker on the back of the PDP itself. It's doubtful those adjustments would do what we desire them to do: decrease MLL. The factory probably tests the amount of power needed to make the panel operational and stamps it on the sticker.

Interesting. But how did you figure out what's on that SN sticker is related to the initializing voltage? Does it say so? And how can one go about changing it?
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post #6227 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 11:35 PM
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Hi Guys, this may have been covered but there's 330 odd pages here. Does this issue affect the V10 series? I am on the verge of buying the 58" version within the next few hours, and if this is a possibility Ill get a Samsung.

Much appreciated
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post #6228 of 11194 Old 03-04-2010, 11:59 PM
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Yes it does, it affects all 2009 models.
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post #6229 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 12:31 AM
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lol
it amuses me that this thread has 50% more posts than the official 2009 discussion thread
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post #6230 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Syed117 View Post

Just got off the phone with Panasonic Tech after my chat with tech support yesterday. They called back the next day, so at least I can give them a little credit. Just a little though because the person I spoke with was a complete drone.

I told him about that change in black level and how it wasn't gradual. I told him that it happened overnight and that there was a night and day difference in the levels. I went into detail about Panasonic's statements and everything that's been happening.

He constantly said two things.

"In regards to your tv, it is operating under specification."

"The tv still has excellent image quality."

He must have said "in regards to your tv" at least 15 times in the 10 minutes or so that I spoke to him.

Everything he said made me angrier and he wasn't interested in listening to what I had to say. Every time I made a point, he countered with, "that's a normal change that will happen through the life of the tv."

Listen guys, I'd LOVE for Panasonic to help us out and fix whatever the issues are, but it's NOT going to happen. All their customer support and tech people are saying the same things that Panasonic released in their statement. They aren't willing to even admit something is wrong. The TVs are working just fine and a drastic change in black level is normal, even if it happens within 3 months.

What did you expect him to say?

"Oh, Mr. Syed, from what you describe, your blacks must be horrible! I am going to pursue this problem of yours no matter what and will personally buy you a new TV if it cannot be fixed!"

They are just guys doing their job. They cannot make up stories, they can only say what they are told to. The official Panasonic statement is what it is. Until that changes, everyone will get the same response.

Panasonic plasma black level restoration
Step-by-step guide for restoring the initial MLL on a Panasonic G10 plasma
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post #6231 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wopino View Post

i went to my local sears today and checked out their panasonic plasma display models. The two i looked at was their TC-P46S1 and TC-P58G10, and they both had over 3000hrs because i checked in the service menu. The 58G10 over all picture modes with the contrast at 100 and the brightness at 58 the screen was totally washed out so it was very obvious that it suffers from the black level rise, but the 46S1 had noticeably deeper blacks over all picture inputs with the same settings. I dunno if this helps anything but apparently their 46S1 is taking a more gradual approach, however, i was not able to check the build dates on both sets...both under the bright lighting of the store i was surprised at how noticeable it was, hopefully this helps somebody, i just wanted to share what i saw today. I really hope the people experiencing this get helped out because it is just not right!!!

I saw a similar scenario at Sears as well. There was a 54g10 sandwiched between an xxXBR9 and an xxLGLH55 and the 54g10's picture was completely washed out in comparison. whenever their demo that was running displayed letter boxed content or dark scenes the blacks were way off compared to those other models and this was in a well lit store. If I was an average Joe going into Sears to buy a TV based off sight alone, it most certainly would not have been the 54g10 that day.

It must be an even bigger slap in the face to people who have sets with this issue when Panasonic says "You're TV Still Provides Excellent Picture Quality" when IMHO it clearly does not. People went out of the way to purchase their Viera line of Plasmas because they were supposed to have the best black levels only to end up with black levels worse than some competing LCD screens and increased IR for good measure.
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post #6232 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

Yes it does, it affects all 2009 models.

Thanks. I just returned from the store. I took a printout of this article, from CNET. I figure the day CNET comes out and does some bad press about Panasonic something is really up, hardly a source of objective or extensive product info, but I digress. The guys told me it was not an issue with Australian models. I pointed out how that was peculiar given we hardly demand our own market, nor do we manufacture locally. They then altered the statement to 'it's only models not manufactured in Japan'.
Anyway, I viewed the Samsung 8 series Plasma at 50" and the Pana TH-P58V10A. Both impressed me greatly. Trouble is, I'm downgrading from a 90" screen/HD projector to a LCD or Plasma, in a very large room. I really need screen size. I can get the 58" Pana for over 1k less than the Samsung at the same size- BUT the black issue? How bad is it really???

Final point - my room is quite light, has blinds, but there will always be ambient light in day time.

Can anyone suggest if the Pana issue will be something I am truly going to regret? I mean, whilst everyone's talking about it, how many had noticed it??
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post #6233 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by wopino View Post

i went to my local sears today and checked out their panasonic plasma display models. The two i looked at was their TC-P46S1 and TC-P58G10, and they both had over 3000hrs because i checked in the service menu. The 58G10 over all picture modes with the contrast at 100 and the brightness at 58 the screen was totally washed out so it was very obvious that it suffers from the black level rise, but the 46S1 had noticeably deeper blacks over all picture inputs with the same settings. I dunno if this helps anything but apparently their 46S1 is taking a more gradual approach, however, i was not able to check the build dates on both sets...both under the bright lighting of the store i was surprised at how noticeable it was, hopefully this helps somebody, i just wanted to share what i saw today. I really hope the people experiencing this get helped out because it is just not right!!!

I find this interesting. I have a 46" S1 with 5000 hours and even though I have followed this thread since day 1, I am convinced my TV still has an excellent picture. I suspect my black levels have risen but I suspect not as much as others report.

I have no meter to measure so take it as you will.
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post #6234 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 04:47 AM
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Following the cnet results which confirm the rising black levels, a couple of Panasonic's advertisements have been revised to reflect reality.

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post #6235 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 04:59 AM
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They are still touting blacks on their website?

Quote:


The VIERA® Advantage: Flat-panel screens help to bring sporting events, season premieres and other exciting HD content to life with genuine black and crisp, clear, real-life colors. Find the ideal VIERA® Flat Panel HDTV for you!


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Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #6236 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AngryPanny View Post

Following the cnet results which confirm the rising black levels, a couple of Panasonic's advertisements have been revised to reflect reality.

[\\YOUTUBEID]FhDAVngCsO8[/youtubeid]

LOL. Well done mate..

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post #6237 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

I did a little digging for the sake of digging.

It appears that adjustments can be made on the SC board in regards to voltage and initialization phase time. Two of the voltage specifications are taken from a unique serial number sticker on the back of the PDP itself. It's doubtful those adjustments would do what we desire them to do: decrease MLL. The factory probably tests the amount of power needed to make the panel operational and stamps it on the sticker.

Too bad some clever engineering-minded third party can't come up with some mod chip or other physical way to defeat this hardware.

Why can't there be a manual override for the voltage adjustments, or some chip which when soldered in prompts the user before each boost? eg. Still like your picture? Y/N If Y, don't apply boost; repeat every few hundred hrs.

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post #6238 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Specka View Post

Anyway, I viewed the Samsung 8 series Plasma at 50" and the Pana TH-P58V10A. Both impressed me greatly. Trouble is, I'm downgrading from a 90" screen/HD projector to a LCD or Plasma, in a very large room. I really need screen size. I can get the 58" Pana for over 1k less than the Samsung at the same size- BUT the black issue? How bad is it really???

Final point - my room is quite light, has blinds, but there will always be ambient light in day time.

What 8 series Sammy were you considering?

If the '09 B850/860, that is likely more suited to your stated viewing environment. Same for the new 8000. They have excellent anti-glare but less so in terms of direct reflection, with the Ultra FilterBright Plus. Overall very good in bright or dark rooms. After Panny first 1000 hours or so, Sammy should be no worse than even, if not better in blacks. From the pics and direct views of affected sets I've seen, especially in dark rooms where blacks are exposed, Sammy will in fact be better.

All sets have issues. Sammy has a few knucklehead ones like screen buzz and broken Cinema Smooth. But Panny MLL rising over time to look really no better than their competitors is not good. The display sets I see with the black issue indeed look a good bit worse than the competition, which is troubling. I would rather have decent blacks with POP in the PQ than washed out blacks with supposedly better Panny processing, which I consider a canard. Panny motion processing is indeed superior with full 1080P but the competition is very close. In other regards, processing is a toss-up with personal preferences winning out. Sammy looks more naturally sharp by most accounts with less grain.

Is the $1K in savings worth the roll of the dice? Just saying. Now if the Panny blacks don't misadjust and stay within reasonable spec., it just might be. But who knows? According to the reports of owners of the larger 58-65" panels, they don't seem to suffer from the sudden misadjustment. But they will have elevated MLL over time. The questions are, where does it stop and what does it look like?




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post #6239 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 06:01 AM
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It looks like the rising black level issue made it into the troubleshooting FAQ of the new G25 manual. Check it out...






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post #6240 of 11194 Old 03-05-2010, 06:04 AM
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OMG...that was great!

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