Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 211 - AVS Forum
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post #6301 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 02:18 PM
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Well I emailed THX with the link provided and I got a reply for more information within a couple of hours. Wanted to know model number, serial number, build date, etc...
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post #6302 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 02:40 PM
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DocuMaker, can you please post the what the shutter speeds were in both the cases?

Coming soon...
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post #6303 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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Here is another successful result taking photos of black levels, as long as you have multiple displays for reference. These shots were taken from a Japanese website linked to on the 2010 Pansonic thread.

You have:

1) Pioneer 600A (euro version of 600M)
2) Sony XEL-1 (11 inch OLED)
3) Panasonic G2 (I presume this is euro verison of G20)

You can see that the Pio is clearly darker than the new G20, and you can see that the OLED disappears into nothingness and you cannot even make out the screen it is so black.

If all you see is black globs, crank up the brightness on your cheap LCD and you will be able to see the differences in black levels easier.







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post #6304 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 02:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unap16 View Post

DocuMaker, can you please post the what the shutter speeds were in both the cases?

You know, I'm embarassed to say that I don't even currently own a camera. I had one quite a while ago, but I sold it. I had to borrow my brother-in-law's cheap-o Olympus that is only like 4 megapixel to take even those shots. I did record the settings somewhere but I would have to dig them out. I took those photos several months ago.

In real life the displays looked somewhere inbetween those two photos. They were not nearly as bright as the first photo shows, but they were not as dark as the second photo shows.
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post #6305 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 02:48 PM
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It seems that the panasonic can not even produce true black... as said in this video.. [mute sound while viewing].

Panasonic does look like gray levels, instead of black levels..., its ashaming that its also a newer tv-set.
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post #6306 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Interesting. But how did you figure out what's on that SN sticker is related to the initializing voltage? Does it say so? And how can one go about changing it?


Probably too technical for this thread. But, what the hell...


Larry
LL
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post #6307 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by gringo1 View Post

Should you buy a Panasonic ?--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE3Mp89xHOg
Mute Sound.

WTF?

This video clip was posted at least a hundred times, so cut the crap already.
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post #6308 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Probably too technical for this thread. But, what the hell...


Larry

Thanks. So if I have a multimeter (and I do), I can go in and play with that thing. Cool!

BTW, what's a 'P Board" in that document?
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post #6309 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayShawn View Post

Well I emailed THX with the link provided and I got a reply for more information within a couple of hours. Wanted to know model number, serial number, build date, etc...

I also emailed THX (THXDisplays@thx.com) a couple of hours ago, documenting my black level doubling through meter readings, etc.

I have not yet heard back from THX, but am somewhat hopeful that they will:

1) demonstrate that after a 100% or 200% black level rise, Panasonic plasmas do not operate within the THX-certified specifications and;

2) request/demand that Panasonic correct their error or retract their claims to THX certification (with the fix being the more optimal outcome, of course).

For the new people just discovering this thread, this is not merely about the lightness of our black/blank screens. Contrast ratio is proportionately diminished as the black level elevates and, hence, degrades ALL visible content. For instance, if your black levels double (lighten by 100%), your contrast ratio is halved. This is where my set stands after only 150 hours. I would be alarmed if my post-rise screen were to be deemed THX-worthy.

For Panasonic to do nothing about this is not only bad for us discerning Panny owners, but also for THX's reputation, whose logo is stamped on these clearly defective sets. Hopefully THX will become our ally in pressuring Panasonic to make things right.

I encourage anyone who has hard data regarding their black level change to contact THX, as well. Their responses so far indicate that they are taking this matter seriously. This is one of the better ideas I have seen around here in a while. Thanks to whomever started this ball rolling.
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post #6310 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Not a pet peeve at all. I never said it was so frequent or so distracting as to become a deal-breaker that would make me want to return a Samsung or Panasonic set. It's just an occasional minor nuisance with certain content that could be improved upon.

You are a much stronger man than I as I could not live with it. Attached are 2 photos I had posted in the V10 thread showing the line bleeding on my 50v10. One pic is the green ratings screen and the other shows a white text bleeding through the hood of a yellow Corvette at the top of the screen. I never knew what line bleeding was until I saw it on this set and then I researched what it was here.

I don't know how those compared to your Hitachi, but every time I used the set there would be multiple times where I would be distracted by it.
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post #6311 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

I also emailed THX (THXDisplays@thx.com) a couple of hours ago, documenting my black level doubling through meter readings, etc.

I have not yet heard back from THX, but am somewhat hopeful that they will:

1) demonstrate that after a 100% or 200% black level rise, Panasonic plasmas do not operate within the THX-certified specifications and;

2) request/demand that Panasonic correct their error or retract their claims to THX certification (with the fix being the more optimal outcome, of course).

For the new people just discovering this thread, this is not merely about the lightness of our black/blank screens. Contrast ratio is proportionately diminished as the black level elevates and, hence, degrades ALL visible content. For instance, if your black levels double (lighten by 100%), your contrast ratio is halved. This is where my set stands after only 150 hours. I would be alarmed if my post-rise screen were to be deemed THX-worthy.

For Panasonic to do nothing about this is not only bad for us discerning Panny owners, but also for THX's reputation, whose logo is stamped on these clearly defective sets. Hopefully THX will become our ally in pressuring Panasonic to make things right.

I encourage anyone who has hard data regarding their black level change to contact THX, as well. Their responses so far indicate that they are taking this matter seriously. This is one of the better ideas I have seen around here in a while. Thanks to whomever started this ball rolling.

the problem with this I believe was explained. There are other TV's that are certified THX. Even with the rise it still might be better than some sets that get the THX tag. Like for instance, what does a LG plasma measure in blacks or an LCD with the THX...

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post #6312 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Thanks. So if I have a multimeter (and I do), I can go in and play with that thing. Cool!

BTW, what's a 'P Board" in that document?


You have a PM.

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post #6313 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

You are a much stronger man than I as I could not live with it. Attached are 2 photos I had posted in the V10 thread showing the line bleeding on my 50v10. One pic is the green ratings screen and the other shows a white text bleeding through the hood of a yellow Corvette at the top of the screen. I never knew what line bleeding was until I saw it on this set and then I researched what it was here.

I don't know how those compared to your Hitachi, but every time I used the set there would be multiple times where I would be distracted by it.


Just curious about your reaction to what is very minor line bleed. Did you ever own a CRT TV? Say an expensive one like a Sony XBR?

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post #6314 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

the problem with this I believe was explained. There are other TV's that are certified THX. Even with the rise it still might be better than some sets that get the THX tag. Like for instance, what does a LG plasma measure in blacks or an LCD with the THX...

Ah. Good explanation. Well, I guess I will just wait and see what THX determines since they do seem to be investigating the issue. In the meantime, I will hope for the best.
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post #6315 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Just curious about your reaction to what is very minor line bleed. Did you ever own a CRT TV? Say an expensive one like a Sony XBR?

Larry

Yes I did (do), but to be perfectly honest I never noticed in that set (doesn't mean it's not there). Perhaps the viewing distance of 8ft for the 34inch screen at the time that this was my primary set had something to do with me not noticing it.

To me this was not minor since this was not a problem on the 5080 it was intended to replace. There were other posters who comented on the severity of this when I posted these in the V10 thread.
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post #6316 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Ah. Good explanation. Well, I guess I will just wait and see what THX determines since they do seem to be investigating the issue. In the meantime, I will hope for the best.

there's nothing wrong with sending it out to THX. I would just cast a wider net and contact more than one place to report your complaint rather than depend on THX. IMO, this issue falls under false advertising as Panasonic clearly indicated the quality of black levels and contrast ratios. You could even add the recent confirmation from CNET as some additional proof of your complaint.

Here's a few extra places you might want to send an extra copy of your message to:
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post #6317 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

Yes I did (do), but to be perfectly honest I never noticed in that set (doesn't mean it's not there). Perhaps the viewing distance of 8ft for the 34inch screen at the time that this was my primary set had something to do with me not noticing it.

To me this was not minor since this was not a problem on the 5080 it was intended to replace. There were other posters who comented on the severity of this when I posted these in the V10 thread.


Maybe it is just the way it looks on my calibrated computer monitor. Photos can be very deceiving.

BTW, I have never seen it on any of the 6 Panasonic plasmas that I've owned. It is a function of how 'bright' the screen is and I can't look at anything over about 25-28 ftL.

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post #6318 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 04:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

You are a much stronger man than I as I could not live with it. Attached are 2 photos I had posted in the V10 thread showing the line bleeding on my 50v10. One pic is the green ratings screen and the other shows a white text bleeding through the hood of a yellow Corvette at the top of the screen. I never knew what line bleeding was until I saw it on this set and then I researched what it was here.

I don't know how those compared to your Hitachi, but every time I used the set there would be multiple times where I would be distracted by it.

Yap, I can definitely see the line-bleed alright. You might want to take some screen captures of the green movie preview screen (I uploaded it a couple pages ago) to the store on an SD card and plug them into the side of the new 2010's. The S2 I tried it on was much fainter than the lines on your V10. They were still there, and not as good as my Kuro, but there seemed to be a noticeable improvement.

If line bleed bothers you: buy a Kuro. If IR bothers you: buy a Kuro. If elevated blacks bother you: buy a Kuro. An extra $500-$1000 spread out over 5 years is not that much. What's a couple hundred bucks a year to have the best? Think of it as only pennies per day to not have to deal with all these aggravations.
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post #6319 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by luciano1213 View Post

I’m not proud. I’ll ask it. What the heck are we suppose to do with stuff like this? I guess the new wave of gushing reviews is about to start from everybody except maybe CNET.Someone please tell me exactly what purpose they serve. I don’t think these reviews are worth anything. Maybe I’m too harsh and bitter. The way things are right here and now, I’m sure not buying another Panasonic,are you? Or are they now the best of the worse, which is good enough?

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1267447473

has anyone read that review ?? it seems that the new g20 doesnt get close to a kuro with blacks , and thats before they start to turn grey , what a joke , even with the kuro engineers help , they cant match a 2 year old tv ....
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post #6320 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

not true!! the rise in MLL is not due to the "gas getting older", it is due to IMPROPER VOLTAGES. If the voltage applied was correct, the MLL would stay the same. The aging gas requires a higher voltage level to "fire" but it does not inherently force the blacks to get grayer!

This has been confirmed by D-Nice among others and other plasmas (samsung, pio, etc) seem to NOT have this problem.

This is why I think we need to collect a few links to posts providing good descriptions of the technical stuff. Every few days this gets rehashed with a new round of theories and speculation, when these technical matters have already been generally explained and settled.

I apologize to go back more than a few pages, but I only check this thread every once in a while.

Here's the point I was making: Even though you can get 100% black regardless of the age of the gas by turning the pixel completely off (i.e., apply zero voltage), at some point, the reactivity of the gas will degrade, making SOME adaptive solution necessary over time to preserve the ability to render a dynamic image.

Thinking about what was posted from the Panasonic patent a few pages back, the idea of applying an increasing "rest state" voltage (i.e., black) eliminates the need to apply variable address voltages, this makes sense. The point isn't that you can't have ever lasting "true" blacks due to plasma gas characteristics. The point is that you would have to use higher address voltages if you cranked down the "black" voltage.

So if the whole set is built around the higher "black" voltage technology, it can probably be built with a lot less complicated hardware / software. This translates directly to lower cost, more competitive pricing, higher sales, and bigger profits.

I know my set cost a lot less than what a Kuro would have cost (if I could still have gotten one). Were the manufacturer's claims about the blacks misleading? Well, since this story has been "confirmed", I will tell you that the online retailer who sold me my set dropped the price by a whopping $13. So clearly the sets are worth less to some, but it's the minority of buyers and hard to imagine that there is really much difference as far as "misleading" the consumer between displaying the sets under a "showroom" environment/settings that eye pop vs. the way it will look when you actually get it home and set it up. As a trip to the diamond district will show you, you can't trust your eyes and showroom lighting when making a big purchase.

As for a lawsuit, I would be very wary of a class action. If you have a class action, it is basically controlled by the lawyers who can, for example, agree to settle the case in exchange for payment of their fees (which will be in the $100K range probably) and every member of the class (that's us) getting a coupon for $100 off another Panasonic product. LOL, in that situation, are you going to opt out and hire your own lawyer to recover $1000 on a TV set. Lawyer's billings rates at big firms are usually over $200/hr.

If you think about the claims of misrepresentation, they largely stem from "editorial" reviews and the like. If an agency like Moody's or S&P can be protected for overstating bond ratings that are in practice trading currency to the markets, do you really think that a THX certification is going to hold any water as a basis for misrepresentation. Very slim change IMHO.

This set of facts means that Panasonic is probably getting some aggressive legal advice in line with the foregoing, and are going to happily flip us off, because (A) the technology is these sets can't be adapted from high static black voltages to an address (Kuro?) voltage model... it can only delay the point at which the higher static voltage kicks in (how long we don't know - will it be another year, two? In five years the depreciated value of these sets will be zero anyway!) AND (B) because they have not technically crossed the line of the law.

I think in this situation, the best approach that owners of these sets can take is to actively circulate a petition, stating in solidarity that we will not buy another Panasonic product unless they agree to provide current owners of these "deficient" sets with vouchers for substantial discounts off of their next generation sets (which is what, at the end of the day, we would all probably get after a class action suit anyway).

If someone has already set up that kind of thing, it would be great to have it sticky-ed somewhere so people can find it without having to comb through the 200+ pages of this thread.

Cheers.
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i sold my tc-p50g10 two days ago because of the black levels.today my brother invite me to his friend house to play some guitar at his house when i saw at his living room 63" samsung
i ask him if he can put a movie with dark scenes he put the star trek movie and hes black levels was bad too he have to put a bias light to get the bars look black that tv is not even a year old what all this make me think that the year 2009 was beta test for all type of tv lcd,plasma,led i think i will have to wait for a least 2011 till they know how to fix all this 2009 problems.
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post #6322 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 06:18 PM
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Hi Clarkebar, thanks for the reply. The model of TV is PS58B850. I'm still considering LCD too, given the room is quite bright.

Well then consider the LG 55LH90 as well. For full backlit LED LCD, this is a great performer. The newer Sammy edge lit LEDs are eye popping in bright light but the flashlighting and screen uniformity issues hold them back. Of course there's always Sony.



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post #6323 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Probably too technical for this thread. But, what the hell...


Larry

I was hinting about this earlier to see if anyone would provide more insight. I believe there are two manual modifications for the initialization pulse: stand down pulse time and voltage. It appears these manual adjustments are provided in the event that the panel is swapped out. Also, it appears that each panel carries a unique serial number stamp with the exact voltages (referrd to as Ve and Vsus) that should be applied to the panel. The SC board provides adjusters for these items as well.

If anyone has any technical insight on the effect of adjusting these settings (or info directly from Panasonic) I'm all ears. I'm not afraid to throw an oscilloscope and multimeter on the board to tinker, but I'm not going to tinker if we know there is no benefit.
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post #6324 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Yes but if you have an LCD right next to the PDP for a reference, no matter what the exposure setting you can see if the PDP is getting close to the levels of the LCD or if they are much darker.

Look at these two photos of my Hitachi PDP 50X902 vs. my Asus 24" LCD. Using different exposure settings, I can make the Hitachi look either darker or lighter. But as long as I have the LCD in there as a reference, you can easily tell that the PDP is quite a bit darker in both shots, and has much deeper black levels than an LCD.




I don't doubt that such comparison shots show which screen is darker, although I have no way of knowing which shot is closer to what I'd see IRL. It's the shots that show a bright gray screen and claim, "OMG, my blacks turned gray over night" that I'm skeptical of. I can't imagine any company putting out a TV that changes so dramatically without there being a recall, and without anyone complaining about it outside of AVS forums. I'm not doubting that the levels have risen.

The pic of the G2 in your other post looks about the same as the blacks on my G15. Again, I have no way of knowing if that's how the TV actually appears in person. I could take a pic of my TV and make it look like a Kuro or a cheap LCD.
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post #6325 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 06:46 PM
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I just got done watching a movie with a lot of dark scenes and kept getting more and more pissed watching it.
My black levels are horrible!

If I would have known this before all the false advertising and glorious reviews about this TV I would have bought a Kuro. Now that I have thrown 2K down the toilet I don't have another 5K to put on a Kuro.

Panny better make this right!!!

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post #6326 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 07:15 PM
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Can anyone explain why Panasonic needs to change the black level at all? Panasonic says the black level increase is programmed into the TVs and is normal, but why is it considered normal?

I've pretty much given on buying an HDTV for a few more years because of this. At least my 27" CRT has perfect blacks, is viewable from any angle, and has no motion blur.
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post #6327 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by daMaster View Post

You mean Xrite EyeOne Display LT

...what are you on commission?
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post #6328 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 07:48 PM
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With the set turned off compare the black of the bezel with the darkness of the screen in a lighted room. Screen is not as black as the bezel... right? That being the case how can you expect the set to produce a true black? Brand new or a year old... obviously impossible.

The only way to be sure the black levels are rising is to measure them over time with a probe. Anything else is pure conjecture.
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post #6329 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by robstamack View Post

I was hinting about this earlier to see if anyone would provide more insight. I believe there are two manual modifications for the initialization pulse: stand down pulse time and voltage. It appears these manual adjustments are provided in the event that the panel is swapped out. Also, it appears that each panel carries a unique serial number stamp with the exact voltages (referrd to as Ve and Vsus) that should be applied to the panel. The SC board provides adjusters for these items as well.

If anyone has any technical insight on the effect of adjusting these settings (or info directly from Panasonic) I'm all ears. I'm not afraid to throw an oscilloscope and multimeter on the board to tinker, but I'm not going to tinker if we know there is no benefit.

This makes a lot of sense when you consider that these voltages need to be tweaked for a panel's age. But I wonder if you adjust them down, will it completely override the "auto step-up", or simply reset the clock down to zero hours as though it were a new panel swap?
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post #6330 of 11231 Old 03-05-2010, 07:53 PM
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Although I'm certain I read the answer to this question a few hundred pages back...
Is Amazon at $161 currently the best place to buy the XR i1D LT?
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