Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 217 - AVS Forum
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post #6481 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

adrman -- how confident are you in the current 0.011 ft-L reading? you are currently an "outlier", but on the good side ... you are currently the only measurement >1000 hrs (excepting 58/65 sets) that is reading below 0.015 ft-L.

So are the larger PDP have suffered a lower rise compared to the 50" and 54" variants?

Coming soon...
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post #6482 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

My 58S1:

ISO 200:

ISO 400:

Any opinions?? I'd estimate .012 ftl. The iso 400 shot is more representative of what the set looks like.

I have 542 hours on the set


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post #6483 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unap16 View Post

So are the larger PDP have suffered a lower rise compared to the 50" and 54" variants?

have you been following the MANY posts on the data?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Latest and greatest data is up, see my signature.

I've also re-colored the data series to make them easier to read.

Lastly, I've created a chart like Batpig has that separates the 58 and 65 inchers out. This does illustrate that these panels start at a lower level and exhibit the same type of rise, based on the data we have so far.

here's BDemer's updated chart:


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post #6484 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

consistency isn't really the issue, it's accuracy. And you are correct that accuracy in measuring luminance is not necessarily going to coincide with accuracy at measuring other factors (e.g. gamut, white balance).

I don't know exactly how low the i1 Pro can go for luminance readings. CalMan claims it can go pretty low using their software since it has correction values.... D-Nice? anyone know how low you can get consistent results in "real world" use?

I have definitely measured values below 0.058 ftL. Is it accurate? I hope so since it will consistantly measure at that same low value. Is it as accurate as a $10000 meter. Oh no. :-). How far off is the question.


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post #6485 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:12 PM
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just because it will measure a number doesn't mean it is accurate. that is still the issue

the results may be consistent/repeatable but that doesn't mean they are accurate unless you have some sort of "correction" against a reference.

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post #6486 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:25 PM
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I don't know, larger models definitely don't seem to be rising nearly as much, even considering the lower starting mll. If all the changes happen by 2000 hours, then they'd have to ramp up quickly. Just a rough sketch:



Perhaps the larger you go, the less of an impact the voltage has on the panel?
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post #6487 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

have you been following the MANY posts on the data?



here's BDemer's updated chart:


Yea, that's the image I was referring to. It's just that the number of 54" inches and below owner far outnumber the 58" and above that the test results to me feel like it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

If the 58 and 65 inch models are indeed not suffering as much, then the pertinent question is perhaps, "why" if they are using the same voltage regulator chip as the smaller models?

Coming soon...
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post #6488 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unap16 View Post

Yea, that's the image I was referring to. It's just that the number of 54" inches and below owner far outnumber the 58" and above that the test results to me feel like it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

If the 58 and 65 inch models are indeed not suffering as much, then the pertinent question is perhaps, "why" if they are using the same voltage regulator chip as the smaller models?



We'd have to see a spike like that in in the green dotted line to have a consensus that the MLL triples on the larger models, especially so if all changes occur within 2,000 hours. I doubt that happens, but who knows.



Perhaps the voltage can be handled by a larger panel?

This would also explain the misconception that the G series is the most effected. Sizes only range up to 54 inch.
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post #6489 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:45 PM
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Bdemers,
is it possible to fit the data both linearly and non linearly, providing also an r squared value to gauge how well the trendline fits the data? A nonlinear trendline may fit the smaller sets well, assuming that some of the sets have reached the plateau point. For the larger sets, most likely we have not yet reached the plateau.

This will give a good indication of how high we can expect the sets to rise, aside from the ~3x original mll that has been mentioned here.
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post #6490 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:46 PM
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As much as I want to ditch my TV and get a new one I don't have the $$$ to do so. I called our local BB for the hell of it and they only have Elite 50" Monitors for $4499. My wife would cut some body parts off that I like very much if I got one.

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Putting the 50V10 downstairs. Bought a new Elite 101FD
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post #6491 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

I have definitely measured values below 0.058 ftL. Is it accurate? I hope so since it will consistantly measure at that same low value. Is it as accurate as a $10000 meter. Oh no. :-). How far off is the question.


Taking simultaneous measurements on a 'black' screen with my i1 LT and my recently certified i1 Pro, I get 0.022 ftL for the LT and 0.040 ftL for the Pro.

Larry
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post #6492 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdemers View Post

Latest and greatest data is up, see my signature.

I've also re-colored the data series to make them easier to read.

Lastly, I've created a chart like Batpig has that separates the 58 and 65 inchers out. This does illustrate that these panels start at a lower level and exhibit the same type of rise, based on the data we have so far.


I have another reading on my 50X1 of 0.022 ftL at about 3000 hours. This model -- at least mine -- seems to have reached a plateau at this level.

Larry
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post #6493 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

As much as I want to ditch my TV and get a new one I don't have the $$$ to do so. I called our local BB for the hell of it and they only have Elite 50" Monitors for $4499. My wife would cut some body parts off that I like very much if I got one.

Me too! $4500 for a 50" God these prices have skyrocketed in the last couple of months
Makes me mad, I could have got a 60" Kuro 151 for $3400 at BB last November! Instead, I got the rising black 58V10. I did get an excellent deal on it though

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post #6494 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:11 PM
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Me too! $4500 for a 50" God these prices have skyrocketed in the last couple of months
Makes me mad, I could have got a 60" Kuro 151 for $3400 at BB last November! Instead, I got the rising black 58V10. I did get an excellent deal on it though

Seriously? Still, I don't mind spending the extra 1500$ I'll have to in order to buy piece of mind, if I can find some of them over here.

BTW, I like your song but I think "Back in Black" would be the obvious song to play here...
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post #6495 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:12 PM
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BB actually inflates the price of discontinued models?

If anything I'd think they'd put them on clearance to get rid of them.
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post #6496 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Next equivalent of a Kuro is at the very earliest 2011, most likely 2012 or 2013

The Kuro is destined to be surpassed, not equaled, in black levels next year... if the roadmap holds up.


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post #6497 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The Kuro is destined to be surpassed, not equaled, in black levels next year... if the roadmap holds up.

Damn... Hopefully not just the upper tier model?
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post #6498 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:16 PM
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The Kuro is destined to be surpassed, not equaled, in black levels next year... if the roadmap holds up.

By which manufacturer? Panny?
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post #6499 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:17 PM
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The Kuro is destined to be surpassed, not equaled, in black levels next year... if the roadmap holds up.

Very Nice, now lets hope that they can maintain those levels.

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post #6500 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post

BTW, I like your song but I think "Back in Black" would be the obvious song to play here...

I will change my signature to "Back in Black" lyrics if Panasonic shocks the HT world and steps up to the plate by releasing a fix

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post #6501 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

adrman -- how confident are you in the current 0.011 ft-L reading? you are currently an "outlier", but on the good side ... you are currently the only measurement >1000 hrs (excepting 58/65 sets) that is reading below 0.015 ft-L.

I noticed that as well. The one thing I could see effecting the reading was in this case I checked the "average many reads on dark measurements" box in the HCFR "eye one parameters" setup. I had read that was the proper way to take the reading when just concerned about ftL. I'll run another cycle tonight and see what I come up with. I'll try both with the "average many reads" on and off and see if there's a difference.
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post #6502 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrman View Post

I noticed that as well. The one thing I could see effecting the reading was in this case I checked the "average many reads on dark measurements" box in the HCFR "eye one parameters" setup. I had read that was the proper way to take the reading when just concerned about ftL. I'll run another cycle tonight and see what I come up with. I'll try both with the "average many reads" on and off and see if there's a difference.


Average many readings is the best (the only accurate?) way to do it.

Larry
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post #6503 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Taking simultaneous measurements on a 'black' screen with my i1 LT and my recently certified i1 Pro, I get 0.022 ftL for the LT and 0.040 ftL for the Pro.

Larry


Super. If I can get HCFR to measure with my i1D2 instead of my i1 Pro, I should expect my measurement to drop from .012 to .007 ;-)
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post #6504 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The Kuro is destined to be surpassed, not equaled, in black levels next year... if the roadmap holds up.

You just closed my wallet for another 12 months! BTW do you think the older Panny plasmas like my 58 inch 60u have suffered much from rising black levels? As best as I can recall it looks about the same as when new...it never was a true inky black, and glows some in a dark room, but I don't feel it has changed much over about 32 months of use.
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post #6505 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:54 PM
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Average many readings is the best (the only accurate?) way to do it.

Larry

Not to get OT, but would you recommend AMR when calibrating gray scale as well? If so, I've got more tweaking to do.
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post #6506 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 01:56 PM
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you don't really need it on when calibrating the grayscale although leaving it on won't affect anything since you can't really tweak grayscale at IRE's low enough for it to matter. You should never be tweaking grayscale at anything below 20-30% with that meter so the setting is sort of irrelevant.

You should keep it on though when you measure the full grayscale at the end so it can get accurate low level readings on the 0%/10% end....

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post #6507 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

have you been following the MANY posts on the data?



here's BDemer's updated chart:


Nice chart! We definately need more data, especially on the 58-65. Right now the data are truncated at the fewer hours in that series and trend lines past that aren't going to be too stable. With so few data points also, any trend line, linear, or non-linear will get influenced by 1 or 2 "outliers". For instance the red "outlier" above the .030, could easily influence the trend line up. We just need more data presented in this format, nice job!
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post #6508 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 02:50 PM
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The measurments are the chart are great, but they are all over the place. Either peoples measurements are off or the rise in Panasonics MLL's are extremely unpredicatable. If its the latter then there is no way these displays were designed to do that

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post #6509 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

The measurments are the chart are great, but they are all over the place. Either peoples measurements are off or the rise in Panasonics MLL's are extremely unpredicatable. If its the latter then there is no way these displays were designed to do that

Or maybe more colors are required. The red data points reflect 3 different panel sizes, no?

Dave
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post #6510 of 11261 Old 03-08-2010, 03:38 PM
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mustangs1 and TheGuyInTheChair,

Do you not have an LCD monitor or laptop that you can place in front of your PDP? I can't believe I have to say this for the umpteenth time. Your pictures are all but useless if you don't have some kind of reference in the picture.

Are you folks using a 0 IRE? or are some of you lazy and just using a blank input, or pausing a Pioneer demo on a black scene? I can see the IR from the Pioneer demo you were watching. Or you paused it before the logo totally disappeared.

FOR THE LAST TIME, USE A 0 IRE!!!!! Get rid of your IR first, before snapping a photo. Use a reference. If you do not have an LCD to set beside your PDP, get a thick piece of black felt and cut out a square.

I uploaded a 0 IRE snapshot here on AVS, so no one has any excuse that they cannot reproduce a 0 IRE. Put it on an SD card and plug it into the side of your Panny.

Ok i have question about that. Where is the difference between a 0 IRE black picture and a black picture i made with windows paint (bmp)?
When i compare them on the 0 IRE picture i can see some ´skrizzels´ on the bmp i cant see that:
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