Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 11234 Old 11-16-2009, 04:03 PM
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I have a 6 year old pioneer 433cmx plasma.Blacks do not get lighter as plasma ages.My blacks were not so great to begin with so if they had lightened up it would be pretty noticable.Set still looks great.

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post #632 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 10:30 AM
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off topic but is the Pn58B650 buzzing ?? I was thinking it was only the 860 ?
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post #633 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 10:47 AM
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exactly, there is no detail and the black is dark gray. Ive tried several setting.... The first tech saw the problem and tried to change the A-board.... They better not tell me that this is normal.. if it was normal, why change that board ?
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post #634 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

off topic but is the Pn58B650 buzzing ?? I was thinking it was only the 860 ?

It has whole lot of quality control issues very easy IR, annoying buzz. Black levels are poorer in Sammy as well. Above all worse customer support.
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post #635 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 11:32 AM
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Could someone try using the AVS HD 709 Calibration disk and set the contrast and brightness of their G10/G15 to see if the black level falls below the 16 mark on the disk? If not which bars flash? So far I'm getting 16 and lower with out any flashing. I can lower the level even more just using the on-screen controls. If there is a hardware problem then the onscreen controls wouldn't crush the blacks from what I can figure. Correct me if i'm wrong on this one though.

AVS HD 709 Calibration disk available here at thread number 948496.
(I am not allowed to post the url yet)

Not as precise as actually measuring the black level but at least we will have a general reference as to where everyone is at.

46" G15 dated June 2009
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post #636 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Vistekrebel View Post

Could someone try using the AVS HD 709 Calibration disk and set the contrast and brightness of their G10/G15 to see if the black level falls below the 16 mark on the disk? If not which bars flash? So far I'm getting 16 and lower with out any flashing. I can lower the level even more just using the on-screen controls.

AVS HD 709 Calibration disk available here at thread number 948496.
I am not allowed to post the url yet

Not as precise as actually measuring the black level but at least we will have a general reference as to where everyone is at.

46" G15 dated June 2009

Using what mode? Standard, THX or Custom?
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post #637 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 11:44 AM
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I am using Custom and THX and I can achieve black at the 16 bar. Haven't tried Standard or Vivid.
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post #638 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vistekrebel View Post

I am using Custom and THX and I can achieve black at the 16 bar. Haven't tried Standard or Vivid.

depends what black . Those patterns doesn't tell very much about the issue we are experiencing here .
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post #639 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

exactly, there is no detail and the black is dark gray. Ive tried several setting.... The first tech saw the problem and tried to change the A-board.... They better not tell me that this is normal.. if it was normal, why change that board ?

OK, that helps. I was looking at a friend's G10 this week, he read this thread and was convinced that his black levels had gone up and were bad now. We put on a few BDs, such as the latest Batman, and I asked him - you don't think the black in these scenes is black? His response was, no, let's put on something on TV - look at the sidebars, see, they don't look pitch black now and I'm sure they used to! Same for when the TV was with no signal.

But when it came to looking at high quality BDs or HDTV shows, the blacks in the picture itself looked fine and he couldn't see a problem. Hence my question - since I've not seen the issue, I was wondering if this is something where the blacks in BDs or TV shows are looking gray-ish.
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post #640 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 12:05 PM
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If you end up with a flashing bar at 4 and can't get to 17 would that not indicate a problem? This is simply a visual reference. Easy to reproduce and at least it would give an idea for others who have concerns. True, how black is the black level would still be an unknown from a strictly numeric sense. Again the problem is reported as blacks being only dark grey. So shouldn't it be visible with this test? Perhaps I am missing something about the problem.
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post #641 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

But when it came to looking at high quality BDs or HDTV shows, the blacks in the picture itself looked fine and he couldn't see a problem. Hence my question - since I've not seen the issue, I was wondering if this is something where the blacks in BDs or TV shows are looking gray-ish.


Even in plasma tv buying guide review they have mentioned it clearly. SD content black has a grayish look. But they are excellent with HD content.

To quote them..

1080p HD Picture Quality: Black levels are deep and strong with an HD signal input through HDMI. While not the best we've seen lately, they lose the dark gray haziness that the G10 displays with a 480i signal. Color is plenty saturated and dark shadow detail remains excellent.
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post #642 of 11234 Old 11-17-2009, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

OK, that helps. I was looking at a friend's G10 this week, he read this thread and was convinced that his black levels had gone up and were bad now. We put on a few BDs, such as the latest Batman, and I asked him - you don't think the black in these scenes is black? His response was, no, let's put on something on TV - look at the sidebars, see, they don't look pitch black now and I'm sure they used to! Same for when the TV was with no signal.

But when it came to looking at high quality BDs or HDTV shows, the blacks in the picture itself looked fine and he couldn't see a problem. Hence my question - since I've not seen the issue, I was wondering if this is something where the blacks in BDs or TV shows are looking gray-ish.

The lighter content of the frame is tricking you into thinking that the blacks are okay, look a the solid black 0000000 jpeg break in slide, if you see that as greyish like I do, then you have issues....
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post #643 of 11234 Old 11-18-2009, 03:01 PM
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Here is some pics of mine
LL
LL
LL
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post #644 of 11234 Old 11-18-2009, 03:08 PM
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I posted this in another thread yesterday, but i didn't get a response. I came to this thread since it's about black levels. I have had the 46g10 for a few months, i love the picture quality on this set. I have never watched this tv in a completely dark room before, always with a light on. The other day, i watch it in a completely dark room, i notice on the 4:3 bars, the blacks glow a little, not like a lot of people here doubling, just a little glow. I don't notice it on the picture itself, its black, but just on the 4:3 bars. Is this normal when you watch this set in a completely dark room? Thanks in advance.
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post #645 of 11234 Old 11-18-2009, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Black levels are poorer in Sammy as well. Above all worse customer support.

So 0.008fL (or 0.03cd/m2) is a worse black level? I thought that was right in the range the G10's test? If not, what is their black level?

I agree about the crappy Samsung customer support.
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post #646 of 11234 Old 11-18-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick1000 View Post

I posted this in another thread yesterday, but i didn't get a response. I came to this thread since it's about black levels. I have had the 46g10 for a few months, i love the picture quality on this set. I have never watched this tv in a completely dark room before, always with a light on. The other day, i watch it in a completely dark room, i notice on the 4:3 bars, the blacks glow a little, not like a lot of people here doubling, just a little glow. I don't notice it on the picture itself, its black, but just on the 4:3 bars. Is this normal when you watch this set in a completely dark room? Thanks in advance.

If you are comparing it to the black of a no input signal then I would say yes, it's normal. I always watch movies at night in a completely dark room and when viewing 4:3 content or 2.35:1 widescreen I can tell the black bars are slightly glowing. But honestly it's so slight I can only notice it when the scene of whatever I'm watching is pretty dark. On a bright scene the bars look completely black.

Dont worry about it, just pay attention to the movie.

TC-P46G10 build date May 2009
Settings and Calibration Reports
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post #647 of 11234 Old 11-18-2009, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

Here is some pics of mine

That is exactly what mine looks like in a totally dark room.

To the people who believe this isn't a real problem: Does your tv look like that in the dark?

If that's normal, then I can live with it. What I can't live with is having a TV that's not working properly.

Btw, my tv looks the same if it's displaying no signal or an all black signal (generated by viewing a black .jpg full screen on my HTPC)
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post #648 of 11234 Old 11-18-2009, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

If you are comparing it to the black of a no input signal then I would say yes, it's normal. I always watch movies at night in a completely dark room and when viewing 4:3 content or 2.35:1 widescreen I can tell the black bars are slightly glowing. But honestly it's so slight I can only notice it when the scene of whatever I'm watching is pretty dark. On a bright scene the bars look completely black.

Dont worry about it, just pay attention to the movie.

Just wanted to be sure. Oh i sure will enjoy it. Thanks for your help.
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post #649 of 11234 Old 11-18-2009, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

Here is some pics of mine

If those are at all accurate and not exaggerated by the camera, your unit seriously borked martin. It looks like yours is stuck on the highest level of the power on cycle, possibly even higher.
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post #650 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

So 0.008fL (or 0.03cd/m2) is a worse black level? I thought that was right in the range the G10's test? If not, what is their black level?

I agree about the crappy Samsung customer support.

To be fair, on average, Samsung 09 PDP's generally don't measure as low as yours. Samsung PDP's don't seem to be as consistent as Panasonic's, but if this is an issue with all Panasonic's, it does put Panasonic about even with Samsung now as far as black levels.
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post #651 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

Here is some pics of mine

Mine are just a tad bit darker than that but not by much. I had my A-Board replaced and the tech saw no change so he is ordering me a new panel to see if anything changes. I asked him if he had seen this type of problem before and he said that he hasn't and that my set is the first he has seen with the light grayish blacks. He also said that if replacing the panel doesn't work he is going to tell Panasonic it is unrepairable so that they will send me a brand new replacement set.
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post #652 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 07:46 AM
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Here is some pics of mine

Holy Crap! Thanks for heads up, was finally going dive into HD but it seems best I wait a year until this mess is addressed I dont have the money mess around.
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post #653 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

To be fair, on average, Samsung 09 PDP's generally don't measure as low as yours. Samsung PDP's don't seem to be as consistent as Panasonic's, but if this is an issue with all Panasonic's, it does put Panasonic about even with Samsung now as far as black levels.

Actually, this would make Panasonics significantly worse in black levels than Samsungs, as I've seen multiple reports of Samsung's black levels being equal to Panasonics out-of-the-box black levels (that is to say, before they double).

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post #654 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 09:06 AM
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Actually, this would make Panasonics significantly worse in black levels than Samsungs, as I've seen multiple reports of Samsung's black levels being equal to Panasonics out-of-the-box black levels (that is to say, before they double).


Where did you read? Following is from a review.

Black level: Both Samsung and Panasonic HDTVs are capable of delivering a deep level of black. Yet with the V10, Panasonic has once again confirmed its supremacy in black level performance. The shade of black on V10 HDTVs is unsurpassed by any 2009 HDTV. Shadow detail on the Panasonic is also excellent. In this respect, expert reviews appearing on Cnet and HDguru agree that the V10 is definitely the best plasma TV for 2009. Why?

A deep shade of black is extremely important as it helps render scenes better at all brightness levels while making colors look richer and more saturated. This is the primary reason why both Panasonic and Samsung plasma TVs are capable of excellent overall picture performance. You see, both are capable of a nice, deep shade of black.

There is some difference though between the two... While Samsung Series 8 plasma TVs are definitely also capable of deep blacks, yet Samsung black level performance is not exactly in line with that of the Panasonic V10.
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post #655 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Where did you read? Following is from a review.

Black level: Both Samsung and Panasonic HDTVs are capable of delivering a deep level of black. Yet with the V10, Panasonic has once again confirmed its supremacy in black level performance. The shade of black on V10 HDTVs is unsurpassed by any 2009 HDTV. Shadow detail on the Panasonic is also excellent. In this respect, expert reviews appearing on Cnet and HDguru agree that the V10 is definitely the best plasma TV for 2009. Why?

A deep shade of black is extremely important as it helps render scenes better at all brightness levels while making colors look richer and more saturated. This is the primary reason why both Panasonic and Samsung plasma TVs are capable of excellent overall picture performance. You see, both are capable of a nice, deep shade of black.

There is some difference though between the two... While Samsung Series 8 plasma TVs are definitely also capable of deep blacks, yet Samsung black level performance is not exactly in line with that of the Panasonic V10.

Funny. This review says black levels are equal between the Samsung B850 and the Panasonic V10.

Quote:
Samsung B850 Black level is not KURO black but B850 has the same black level as the Panasonic V10. I measured black at 0.05 cd/m2 after calibration which is a good result adding depth to the overall picture. In practice Pioneer KURO has deeper blacks, though.


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post #656 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 09:23 AM
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Funny. This review says black levels are equal between the Samsung B850 and the Panasonic V10.

Same site


Check G10's black level 42G10 review
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post #657 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by vkarthik View Post

Same site


Check G10's black level 42G10 review

Well that's just silly. How did he rate the G10 with a better black level than the V10?

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post #658 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Actually, this would make Panasonics significantly worse in black levels than Samsungs, as I've seen multiple reports of Samsung's black levels being equal to Panasonics out-of-the-box black levels (that is to say, before they double).

Where are these reports you speak of? Every review I've read stated that the Samsung's aren't quite as dark as Panasonic's. Only 1 calibration report I've seen had black levels that were comparable to a Panasonic out of the box (Civitas). I've seen probably half a dozen calibration reports from 09 Samsung's and they're all over the place -- anywhere from 0.008fL (again, Civitas was the only one I saw) all the way up to 0.0229fL (HDTV shootout). 12G Panasonic's out of the box typically measure ~0.007fL and ~0.018fL after the rise, which is about the same as what 09 Samsung's measure on average.
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Well that's just silly. How did he rate the G10 with a better black level than the V10?

We've been speculating here in this thread that the reason their G10 had better blacks, was because their V10 had more hours and hit the time threshold causing the blacks to double. This further proves that after the rise, the Samsung's are generally about equal with the Panasonic's.
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post #659 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 10:09 AM
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The situation is a little bit exagerated by the camera but not much. I can only see the problem on dark scenes.... If im watching the tv with the lights on, its really less noticeable... BTW sorry for my english
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post #660 of 11234 Old 11-19-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quoting reviews to prove black level superiority seems like a war of attrition - there are many reviews and they often come to different conclusions. More importantly most of them make these conclusions without actually offering the actual measurement, let alone providing the settings they used when they tested it or their methodology for testing. I would think real data would trump vague statements of opinion from writers.

As for the data differing, this has been true of Panasonic as well as Samsung. For the Samsung results, it is possible I have a set that is aberrant in black level by 3X the norm, but isn't it also possible those sources didn't achieve an optimal calibration? My set initially measured 0.02x fL before D-Nice calibrated it and changed the settings on my PS3 player. That seems like an interesting coincidence to me that my pre-calibration results were comparable to what a couple other reviewers noted.
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