Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 220 - AVS Forum
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post #6571 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggy View Post

No mater what I try, I cannot get my i1D2 to read data on 0IRE blacks. HCFR reports "No Data from Sensor". I have a spare i1D2 to try, and I will.
In the meantime, I took 6 readings again last night with my i1 Pro and came up with an average of .002
Can this be right? What is going on here?
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Does your calibration on the i1D2 pass? If you do that correctly, that should be reading complete black (lay the meter on a flat black surface with no room lighting.) If the i1D2 can calibrate, why couldn't it read your 0IRE image from your display?

My i1Lt (which is the same as i1D2) can read even on a black surface. Run the "Eye-One Diagnostics" that is included on the meter's software CD.

Maybe your USB ports power output is weak. Try a powered USB HUB between the computer and meter.
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post #6572 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

What Kuro? 1st Gen? 2nd Gen? My 101FD, 500M and 141FD are in the 0.000xfL range. My 4280HD measures 0.0063fL with 1800+ hours on it.

Does the pro 950 have lower mll than a 4280?
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post #6573 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

Does the pro 950 have lower mll than a 4280?

If I remember correctly, yes. One of my clients is selling me theirs and I will measure it when I get it.


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post #6574 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

I didn't think that the viewing angles were that bad, to be honest with you. Certainly no worse than any other LCD I've seen.

If you go over to the LH90 thread on the LCD forum, you'll see that they've come up with all kinds of settings and hacks.

My only real disappointment with it had to do with the semi-matte screen...it eliminates reflections but you still see glare in dark areas if it is sitting in direct light. Getting rid of glare and reflections was the whole reason I got it to begin with.

Thanks!

I read this in Chad B's review (it was added as an update):
Quote:


After calibrating 2 more LH90s, I have found the glowing halo effect is visible in a totally dark room even when on axis. However, it's not severe enough to reduce my enthusiasm much. It does make me really look forward to the new model which will have more zones for the LED backlight.
Since the review was not done in a totally dark room, I couldn't fully appreciate the ultra rich blacks the LH90 can give. After seeing it in the dark, it is stunning! It really is closer to infinite black than anything else I have seen, including the 9G Kuros.
With the local dimming off, the contrast ratio is around 850:1. With the local dimming on, it is too high for my profiled Chroma 5 to measure.
I will attach the measurements soon.

Pretty impressive! I'm guessing there are other issues with the LH90 thats keeping it from being the holy grail of blacklevels.
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post #6575 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

Thanks!

I read this in Chad B's review (it was added as an update):


Pretty impressive! I'm guessing there are other issues with the LH90 thats keeping it from being the holy grail of blacklevels.

I think a common complaint is that the THX mode wasn't accurate enough, but apparently some AVSers have found a way to change the settings in that AV mode.

It is an impressive TV, and with Panasonic apparently screwing up their 2010 models, it is definitely worth a look.
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post #6576 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 03:43 PM
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Have people started selling their tv's? I'm wondering whether I should just take the loss and put mine on the market...
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post #6577 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggy View Post

No mater what I try, I cannot get my i1D2 to read data on 0IRE blacks. HCFR reports "No Data from Sensor". I have a spare i1D2 to try, and I will.
In the meantime, I took 6 readings again last night with my i1 Pro and came up with an average of .002
Can this be right? What is going on here?
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It is right. My LT and Pro behave the same. The LT reads low luminance levels (Y) more accurately than the Pro.

Larry
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post #6578 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dmanners View Post

Or maybe more colors are required. The red data points reflect 3 different panel sizes, no?

This comment is right on the money, IMO. While this study is highly uncontrolled and therefore worthless, there is certainly something to be gained by performing it. As an EE, I have a hunch that the size of the display plays a part here, either by Panasonic design, or by the nature of the technology itself.
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post #6579 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 04:23 PM
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the data is publicly available and anyone is free to paste it into Excel and look for other relationships. https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...5QWIyanc&hl=en

I have parsed through it and have not found anything significant wrt other size distinctions, besides the difference with 58/65 Neo models (which are known to start at a lower MLL than all the other sets). Obviously more data would be nice but I am highly suspicious of the idea that there is any major difference between, say, a 46" and a 50" model in terms of the MLL issue.

I did enjoy the comment, "While this study is worthless.... there is something to be gained by performing it"

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post #6580 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 04:31 PM
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Rasmus Larsen from flatpanelsHD.com

Q:
Quote:


Anyway, there is one absolutely major aspect that need to be considered now, when it comes to Panasonic plasmas - the black levels/automatic voltage adjustment problem of the 2009 range. Obviously it's too early for any observations, but do you have any trustful information on that matter from Panasonic or any other source ?

A:
Quote:


It seems that it's primarily a US related issue. It's true that plasma panels change in terms of light intensity over time but black levels should only be worsened a tiny bit (theoretically).

There are two aspects; one is the actual change in light output that is reduced over time (LCDs and OLEDs also loose light intensity over time).
Panasonic is trying to compensate by modifying light output based running hour intervals (all manufacturers are, including LG and Samsung). It seems that the backlight stepping is too hard on some sets. Panasonic should probably release a firmware update to fix the too steep 600 hour change. Panasonic told me that the 2010 models have a less aggressive algorithm for changing light output. I don’t know if it’s true but I noticed that the picture menu had a setting called “Panel” that changed nothing. This could be a setting for disabling the algorithm.
The second one is the change over time in phosphor. You can’t really do anything about this but it’s the same issue like on the old CRT TVs.

I have had a 2009 and a 2008 Panasonic plasma here for some time now and see no visible reduction. I also had a 2007 and a 2009 Samsung plasma. Both have been running for some time and I have noticed a minor reduction in light output but no change in black levels.
And about the G20 I haven’t found anything alarming. But I haven’t passed the 600 hour mark yet, so I can’t really say.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/flatforu...=1236&start=30
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post #6581 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan22 View Post

This comment is right on the money, IMO. While this study is highly uncontrolled and therefore worthless, there is certainly something to be gained by performing it. As an EE, I have a hunch that the size of the display plays a part here, either by Panasonic design, or by the nature of the technology itself.

Wow, an EE with a hunch! Isn't that highly uncontrolled and therefore worthless?
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post #6582 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan22 View Post

This comment is right on the money, IMO. While this study is highly uncontrolled and therefore worthless, there is certainly something to be gained by performing it. As an EE, I have a hunch that the size of the display plays a part here, either by Panasonic design, or by the nature of the technology itself.

Batpig and I have both responded to this.

We have plotted by individual sizes and it didn't make any difference. The data was still scattered.


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post #6583 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

Thanks!

I read this in Chad B's review (it was added as an update):


Pretty impressive! I'm guessing there are other issues with the LH90 thats keeping it from being the holy grail of blacklevels.

Unbearable horizontal banding and I really do mean unbearable. I had 2 of them and they both had it bad. I posted this earlier and someone else said they returned theirs for the same reason.
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post #6584 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by iLLWiLL View Post

Have people started selling their tv's? I'm wondering whether I should just take the loss and put mine on the market...

I was thinking the same, but I'll just put it downstairs somewhere and replace the tube TV. My wife watches TV down there, I don't. She can't tell black from grey anyway. I was offered about $600 from a guy in work. I paid $1879.

After about an hour of calibrating tonight. I got a measurement of 0.037FtL now. I don't know if it has anything with running test patterns all night. I ran the TVs scrolling bar to try and clean some IR up, but it didn't change.

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post #6585 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 05:21 PM
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I was thinking the same, but I'll just put it downstairs somewhere and replace the tube TV. My wife watches TV down there, I don't. She can't tell black from grey anyway. I was offered about $600 from a guy in work. I paid $1879.

After about an hour of calibrating tonight. I got a measurement of 0.037FtL now. I don't know if it has anything with running test patterns all night. I ran the TVs scrolling bar to try and clean some IR up, but it didn't change.


The scrolling white bar masks and washes away IR but with the result of creating the equivalent of full screen IR. You will always get a higher MLL reading right after using the white bar.

It's time after almost 7000 post for someone to develop a standard test method. Without one, the data is meaningless except to show that the MLL rises with time.

I do not volunteer for this undertaking.

Larry
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post #6586 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan22 View Post

... While this study is highly uncontrolled and therefore worthless, there is certainly something to be gained by performing it. ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

... It's time after almost 7000 post for someone to develop a standard test method. Without one, the data is meaningless except to show that the MLL rises with time. ...

I was not, myself, intending to pass judgement on how meaningful the collected data was (or is). It has been reproduced for issue illustration in other independent media exposure, at least on the net. So it seems to me to have been useful and meaningful at least in that regard.

But I cannot quibble with an assertion that a standard test procedure or controlled study would lend significantly greater credibility to the data.

Dave
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post #6587 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanners View Post

I was not, myself, intending to pass judgement on how meaningful the collected data was (or is). It has been reproduced for issue illustration in other independent media exposure, at least on the net. So it seems to me to have been useful and meaningful at least in that regard.

But I cannot quibble with an assertion that a standard test procedure or controlled study would lend significantly greater credibility to the data.


By no means was I criticizing you.

It is the lack of a standard methodology that was the sole purpose of my post.

Readings are being taken under wildly varying conditions which probably accounts for the large spread in the data points.

That's all I was saying.

Larry
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post #6588 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 06:31 PM
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normally i start my testing after watching hd tv for 30 minutes or so with the meter on the screen to get to the same temp. if i do this and then do a BL reading right away i normally get 0.034 which is my norm.
no matter what I do my 0% IRE is never lower than 0.034FtL

Like I said I am wondering if this has anything to do with the replacement a-board. if voltage is increased at certain hours theory holds then....

with my factory a-board i had about 1000 hrs on it before it was replaced. did the voltage increase to 0.022FtL or what people are averaging now? then i had the board replaced and the TV hrs started back at 0. Now is my voltage still increasing because the TV thinks it doesn't have that many hours on it to a total now of 0.034FtL?

this is why I am thinking i am higher than most people.

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post #6589 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

By no means was I criticizing you.

It is the lack of a standard methodology that was the sole purpose of my post.

Readings are being taken under wildly varying conditions which probably accounts for the large spread in the data points.

That's all I was saying.

Larry

Larry, no worries, I didn't interpret it as criticism. I generally agree with your point. I was only pointing out that even without the rigor of a standard procedure the data has been useful.

I'm actually rather accustomed to criticism. I am, after all, married.

Dave
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post #6590 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

The scrolling white bar masks and washes away IR but with the result of creating the equivalent of full screen IR. You will always get a higher MLL reading right after using the white bar.

It's time after almost 7000 post for someone to develop a standard test method. Without one, the data is meaningless except to show that the MLL rises with time.

I do not volunteer for this undertaking.

Larry

Agree that we need a standardized test to have meaningful comparisons. We could use the CNET methodology from http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462105-1.html as a starting point:

"Black-level test methodology
Each Panasonic 2009 plasma television was measured using the following procedure. The TV was connected to a Sony PlayStation 3 via HDMI (settings) and set to THX picture mode. In the "Digital Video Essentials: HD Basics" Blu-ray disc, the 0 percent test pattern (under "Advanced Video Test Patterns") was then displayed onscreen and the player paused. The brightness control was adjusted until the outermost blacker-than-black bars on the pattern just disappeared (one more click of brightness upwards would make them reappear). Then TV would be set to its "scrolling bar" mode for 5 minutes to remove remaining image retention. After 1 minute displaying the 0 percent pattern, the middle of the screen was measured using the same Konica Minolta LS-100 luminance meter for all measurements, and the results, in footlamberts, reported above."

Replace Digital Video Essentials with AVS HD. I'm not an expert on this but at least this is somewhere to start.
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post #6591 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 07:05 PM
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bryan,

That might be a good test for comparing the "black level" of different TV brands but it certainly is not the test that I would use to measure MLL.

I wonder what procedure D-Nice uses?

Larry
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post #6592 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryinri View Post

it's time after almost 7000 post for someone to develop a standard test method. Without one, the data is meaningless except to show that the mll rises with time.

I do not volunteer for this undertaking.

larry

1-2-3 not it.
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post #6593 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 07:34 PM
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My method for testing MLL:

-Warm up the meter for 30 minutes while full screen content is playing (Directv) as to not cause IR.
-Switch to PS3 with AVS HD 709 disc playing.
-Calibrate meter with black DVD case.
-Select "average many reads on dark measurements" in HCFR.
-Turn off lights in the room.
-Skip to the 0 IRE pattern.
-Take a "unique free measure" with HCFR.
-Repeat a few times.

That's it.

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post #6594 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

My method for testing MLL:

-Warm up the meter for 30 minutes while full screen content is playing (Directv) as to not cause IR.
-Switch to PS3 with AVS HD 709 disc playing.
-Calibrate meter with black DVD case.
-Select "average many reads on dark measurements" in HCFR.
-Turn off lights in the room.
-Skip to the 0 IRE pattern.
-Take a "unique free measure" with HCFR.
-Repeat a few times.

That's it.

How far away from the screen is the meter?
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post #6595 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dabigwaxy View Post

1-2-3 not it.

You won't do it, Waxy? Ohhh



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post #6596 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

My method for testing MLL:

-Warm up the meter for 30 minutes while full screen content is playing (Directv) as to not cause IR.
-Switch to PS3 with AVS HD 709 disc playing.
-Calibrate meter with black DVD case.
-Select "average many reads on dark measurements" in HCFR.
-Turn off lights in the room.
-Skip to the 0 IRE pattern.
-Take a "unique free measure" with HCFR.
-Repeat a few times.

That's it.


What is on the screen just before you "Skip to the 0 IRE pattern"? Or do you mean that the dvd is paused on 0% (not IRE) before you 'skip' to it?

Larry
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post #6597 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrist View Post

Thanks!

I read this in Chad B's review (it was added as an update):


Pretty impressive! I'm guessing there are other issues with the LH90 thats keeping it from being the holy grail of blacklevels.

Try watching any LED off axis, even slightly and those blacks turn lighter.
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post #6598 of 11256 Old 03-09-2010, 10:59 PM
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Not the Toshiba SV670U. I watched the opening scene of the new star trek off axis-no problems at all.
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post #6599 of 11256 Old 03-10-2010, 04:46 AM
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I received a reply from THX:

"Thanks for the detailed information. We are sorry to hear that you are experiencing these issues with your TV. I'll send this along to our engineering team and follow-up with you if we have more questions."

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post #6600 of 11256 Old 03-10-2010, 06:02 AM
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Try watching any LED off axis, even slightly and those blacks turn lighter.


Yeah that's what i'm afraid of, in moving from Plasmas which I'm used to.

I don't mind a little bit of change when moving off axis, but i don't want it to be drastic.


I wish i could see it in store somewhere, even if im dealing with store lighting. But i haven't seen it anywhere in Canada. Best Buy has it but doesn't seem to be available in store, online only.
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