Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 223 - AVS Forum
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post #6661 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

With panny banners at the top and sides of the article advertising the best in home entertainment.

I agree with getting THX on our side. My email to THXDisplays@thx.com:

I want to get on record as feeling utterly deceived by Panasonic and their claims about their black levels. I am sure that many folks who do the research before buying a 2k+ HDTV understand not only black levels but THX certification. Those are the 2 primary reasons why I bought this set. I am currently in the market to upgrade my audio setup and was considering a THX- certified (plus/select) rating on the receiver. If the receiver degrades over time, what good is the certification? Nowadays, I expect at least 5 years from an HDTV and receiver before it's time to upgrade.
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post #6662 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Harywood View Post

I would gladly swap original MLL /great picture (which is what I paid for Mr. Panasonic!) for 60,000 hours than have crappy blacks haunt me for 100,000.

I'm sure the vast majority of lucky owners would agree.

I put on approx 1000 hours in 1 year (strictly for movie watching, not a day-to-day general TV), so I'd even go for a 20,000 hour panel 1/2 life if they'd reset the blacks to what they were when new, honestly.

Cheers
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post #6663 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 08:05 AM
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Look at the bright side people. At least most of you only spend 1-2k. I went for the 65" and spent almost 3.8k to buy what I thought was an amazing TV and now I find out about this insanity and borderline fraud by Panasonic. I am crushed.....

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post #6664 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by fist66 View Post

I've got an opportunity to buy a 42S1 store display model for around $600.
With these issues, 999 is out of the question but at some price point things can be forgiven for a bedroom set.

This set could have 1000-2000hrs on it since it has been a display model for many months (at least 5).

A few questions:
- should the voltage adjustment be at full by now?
- any ideas on how to really evaluate this? source will be directv HD, but no blu-ray.

This will be a dark room (bedroom), so maybe I've got a good opportunity here in the 2 week return window to evaluate it.

Bedroom is worst posible place to put grey panel besides dedicated and darkened home cinema. On the other hand if you have 2 weeks to decide - why should not you try ? It should not go much worse after 2000 housrs imo.

There should be my signature
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post #6665 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by kotlec View Post

Bedroom is worst posible place to put grey panel besides dedicated and darkened home cinema. On the other hand if you have 2 weeks to decide - why should not you try ? It should not go much worse after 2000 housrs imo.


I'm leaning towards giving it a try. Plan B is a LG 42LH90 LED set from the same store. Again, great deal on display model, with near plasma reviews. If only I could take the Panny bezel and put it on the LG, I'd have something going there.
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post #6666 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by fist66 View Post

I'm leaning towards giving it a try. Plan B is a LG 42LH90 LED set from the same store. Again, great deal on display model, with near plasma reviews. If only I could take the Panny bezel and put it on the LG, I'd have something going there.

Yeah i saw a 55LH90 last night in a store, and the bezel is a bit unsightly imo. Great looking tv though.
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post #6667 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealjoeblow View Post

I put on approx 1000 hours in 1 year (strictly for movie watching, not a day-to-day general TV), so I'd even go for a 20,000 hour panel 1/2 life if they'd reset the blacks to what they were when new, honestly.

Cheers
The REAL Joe

If the average person watched their TV an average of 5 hours a day per weeknight, and 8 hours a day on weekends = 41 hours a week x 52 weeks = 2132 hours per year. Over the course of 10 years = 21,320. That's a lot of TV watching, and 10 years of life is a very good return on a TV.

So if they made the half life 25,000 hrs instead of 100,000 hrs, would ther be any complaints? So do they really need to raise the brightness over the life of the panel?

Just my thoughts.

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post #6668 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealjoeblow View Post

I put on approx 1000 hours in 1 year (strictly for movie watching, not a day-to-day general TV), so I'd even go for a 20,000 hour panel 1/2 life if they'd reset the blacks to what they were when new, honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

If the average person watched their TV an average of 5 hours a day per weeknight, and 8 hours a day on weekends = 41 hours a week x 52 weeks = 2132 hours per year. Over the course of 10 years = 21,320. That's a lot of TV watching, and 10 years of life is a very good return on a TV.

So if they made the half life 25,000 hrs instead of 100,000 hrs, would ther be any complaints? So do they really need to raise the brightness over the life of the panel?


are you not listening? THIS ISSUE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "HALF-LIFE" OF THE PANEL BRIGHTNESS!!

the voltage adjustment is NOT there to counteract the "plasmas get dimmer over time" thing!! one has NOTHING to do with the other!!

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post #6669 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fist66 View Post

I've got an opportunity to buy a 42S1 store display model for around $600.
With these issues, 999 is out of the question but at some price point things can be forgiven for a bedroom set.

This set could have 1000-2000hrs on it since it has been a display model for many months (at least 5).

A few questions:
- should the voltage adjustment be at full by now?
- any ideas on how to really evaluate this? source will be directv HD, but no blu-ray.

This will be a dark room (bedroom), so maybe I've got a good opportunity here in the 2 week return window to evaluate it.

This is how you evaluate it: take it home, watch a widescreen movie with letterbox bars in your typical viewing conditions. Are you bothered by the quality of the blacks (e.g. letterbox bars and dark scenes)? If no, enjoy your set and pretend you never saw this thread.

Ideally, you can also check the hours used. If the TV is well over 1000-1500 hrs then you are probably near the "settling point" as far as we know.

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post #6670 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

If the average person watched their TV an average of 5 hours a day per weeknight, and 8 hours a day on weekends = 41 hours a week x 52 weeks = 2132 hours per year. Over the course of 10 years = 21,320. That's a lot of TV watching, and 10 years of life is a very good return on a TV.

So if they made the half life 25,000 hrs instead of 100,000 hrs, would ther be any complaints? So do they really need to raise the brightness over the life of the panel?

Just my thoughts.


You label yourself an "ISF Calibrator", and you still are this confused about the rising MLL problem?!
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post #6671 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Ideally, you can also check the hours used. If the TV is well over 1000-1500 hrs then you are probably near the "settling point" as far as we know.

That's interesting. I was wondering at which point I sould start being really concerned... I kinda lost track of the hours of use. Can they be seen by accessing the service menu? Thanks.
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post #6672 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

You label yourself an "ISF Calibrator", and you still are this confused about the rising MLL problem?!

I took it as him saying if their real reason for raising the black levels is to increase life span, then he doesn't see the point in doing so because 100,000 hours is a LONG time.
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post #6673 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

If the average person watched their TV an average of 5 hours a day per weeknight, and 8 hours a day on weekends = 41 hours a week x 52 weeks = 2132 hours per year. Over the course of 10 years = 21,320. That's a lot of TV watching, and 10 years of life is a very good return on a TV.

So if they made the half life 25,000 hrs instead of 100,000 hrs, would ther be any complaints? So do they really need to raise the brightness over the life of the panel?

Just my thoughts.

I agree completely. I would rather own a display with a 20,000 hour half life that retains its black level throughout those 20,000 hours. Who keeps a display for 100,000 hours anyway?
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post #6674 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 11:09 AM
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We can blame Panasonic for all this fiasco but it was Al Gore who is partly the root cause of this problem.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin

http://www.care2.com/causes/global-w...lobal-warming/

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov...g-screen-tvs19
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post #6675 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 45rpm View Post

We can blame Panasonic for all this fiasco but it was Al Gore who is partly the root cause of this problem.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin

http://www.care2.com/causes/global-w...lobal-warming/

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov...g-screen-tvs19

Environment > TVs.
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post #6676 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

You label yourself an "ISF Calibrator", and you still are this confused about the rising MLL problem?!

I'm a calibrator, not an Engineer.

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post #6677 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by seether4113 View Post

I took it as him saying if their real reason for raising the black levels is to increase life span, then he doesn't see the point in doing so because 100,000 hours is a LONG time.

Thank you.

They said that they "designed" it to optimize performance through the life of the display. Truth or not, that's their story. My comment was, we could deal with a shorter "life" of the display.

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post #6678 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 11:25 AM
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BUT ONE IS NOT RELATED TO THE OTHER!!!

are people dense around here? why is this not sinking in??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 45rpm View Post

We can blame Panasonic for all this fiasco but it was Al Gore who is partly the root cause of this problem.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin

http://www.care2.com/causes/global-w...lobal-warming/

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov...g-screen-tvs19

also TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. not only (1) does this voltage issue have NOTHING to do with overall energy consumption but (2) other plasma manufacturers don't have the problem!!

my lord, this thread sometimes....

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post #6679 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

I'm a calibrator, not an Engineer.

now you've done it... everyone with an engineering degree is going to start including it in their sig

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
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I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #6680 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

are you not listening? THIS ISSUE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "HALF-LIFE" OF THE PANEL BRIGHTNESS!!

the voltage adjustment is NOT there to counteract the "plasmas get dimmer over time" thing!! one has NOTHING to do with the other!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

BUT ONE IS NOT RELATED TO THE OTHER!!!

are people dense around here? why is this not sinking in??



also TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. not only (1) does this voltage issue have NOTHING to do with overall energy consumption but (2) other plasma manufacturers don't have the problem!!

my lord, this thread sometimes....

I'm sorry but I think I should add something. please don't take it the wrong way, but yelling CAPS at people won't help understand the matter.

I've been following this thread for a while now, because I'm understandably worried with this issue. However, I've noticed 4-5 people taking and debating MLL readings like crazy and asking for people to provide more readings, so we can have some weight and go to THX and Panasonic with something and maybe help ourselves and others. But what do we get when we ask questions here? Nothing! Me and some others were asking for a proper tool to buy in order to jump in and do our part, about 5 pages back and no one answered yet.

If you want to increase the number of followers to go on this "crusade" against Panny, a little understanding towards those who are interested to do something but do not know as much as you do, would surely help. If not, your community of devoted and active members on the matter will just remain a small, CLOSED circle who won't gain in strength, thus falling flat in a short time. As I said, I'm far from being an expert on the subject, but I'm eager to do my part and judging from several unanswered posts in this thread, may I suggest a different approach?

As I said, I don't want anyone here to take this the wrong way, but a few helpful info to those in need and we'll gladly do our homeworks and get back with some results so we may become a force in itself, towards a potential outcome. I assume that I don't speak only for myself here...
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post #6681 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 12:02 PM
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I am not leading any "crusade", I am just helping with the data collection. I mostly just like spreadsheets. I don't even own one of the affected sets! I also am trying to help dispel certain myths and misinformation. I couldn't care less about increasing the number of "followers".

But when you tell somebody something, and then they don't listen to you and keep saying the incorrect information that has just been corrected, then you get some caps lock upside the head. Hopefully it will beat into their head that what they are saying is WRONG.

saying that you get nothing when you ask questions is ludicrous. this thread is over 6,000 posts long. every question that is being asked has been answered, probably ten times over.... the vast majority of the critical information is encapsulated in the FIRST POST. If people took the time to read the links in the first post, stupid myths like this having to do with some scheme to extend the "half life" of the set would not persist.... but then people appear and spout the same misinformation over and over... it get frustrating

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post #6682 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

now you've done it... Everyone with an engineering degree is going to start including it in their sig



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post #6683 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I am not leading any "crusade", I am just helping with the data collection. I mostly just like spreadsheets. I don't even own one of the affected sets! I also am trying to help dispel certain myths and misinformation. I couldn't care less about increasing the number of "followers".

Well, for someone who couldn't care less, you seem quite devoted to the "data collection" process. As for the number of people getting involved, that's YOUR opinion. My message wasn't intended solely for you. Some people here have written otherwise but if no help is required or desired, no problem! Good luck with this inquiry then...

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

But when you tell somebody something, and then they don't listen to you and keep saying the incorrect information that has just been corrected, then you get some caps lock upside the head. Hopefully it will beat into their head that what they are saying is WRONG.

Totally agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

saying that you get nothing when you ask questions is ludicrous. this thread is over 6,000 posts long. every question that is being asked has been answered, probably ten times over.... the vast majority of the critical information is encapsulated in the FIRST POST.

Partly agreed. I DID check in the "Calibration" section of this forum but did NOT find the answer. So YOU haven't read my post then or have been too busy for the thing you apparently "couldn't care less"... But then again, it was not solely intended towards you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

If people took the time to read the links in the first post, stupid myths like this having to do with some scheme to extend the "half life" of the set would not persist.... but then people appear and spout the same misinformation over and over... it get frustrating

I agree that already written information doesn't need to be repeated over and over though...
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post #6684 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 01:03 PM
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Bob Perry quote...
In order to keep overall image quality high as a set ages, however, Panasonic makes several adjustments (Perry declined to be more specific, citing trade-secret concerns). One adjustment increases overall luminance after roughly three or four years (or less, for sets in frequent use).

One can assume from the above statement from Bob Perry that the adjustments are done to keep image quality high as the 'set ages.' Therefore, if no adjustments were done, the set would keep the initial black level correct? Well, if I don't plan on keeping the set for more than a few years, why do I need the adjustment? In other words, I only want to keep the set for 20,000 hrs and not 100,000 hrs. Do you know definitively why Panasonic does the voltage adjustment? It could very well be to prevent misfiring due to aging phosphors. Do you know when the phosphors start misfiring if the voltage adjustment is not done? Is it after 20,000 hrs? If so, then my point is still valid.
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post #6685 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sethhobrin View Post

Look at the bright side people. At least most of you only spend 1-2k. I went for the 65" and spent almost 3.8k to buy what I thought was an amazing TV and now I find out about this insanity and borderline fraud by Panasonic. I am crushed.....

Hi I'm planning on getting the 65" but with all of this talk about black levels rising now I'm not sure if I should. How is you particular set holding out have you noticed any changes in the black level? Thanks
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post #6686 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 01:12 PM
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Hi I'm planning on getting the 65" but with all of this talk about black levels rising now I'm not sure if I should. How is you particular set holding out have you noticed any changes in the black level? Thanks

So far, I haven't noticed a significant change but my set has somewhere around 500 hours and from what I've read, the worst comes somewhere between 1000-1500 hours. Which is not much, to say the least...
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post #6687 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 01:28 PM
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I've cancelled an ISF calibration I scheduled for next week (P42G15(B)).

Is there any point in calibrating a 5 week old set if the black levels are going to increase?

The more I read about this problem the less I am convinced that the class action will have success.

Could someone answer the following:

1) Is there an absence of an industry standard definition of acceptable black level limits? Even the THX response suggests this. The subjectively subtle nature of the increase (according to CNET) means, in the absence of radically escalating values, that Panasonic's argument will surely hold sway: the same technology is present in the G20 range albeit with a more subtle implementation.

2) Is it the technology itself or the unsubtle implementation that is the cause of action against Panasonic?

3) The "infinite black" argument is interesting though. Does the well marketed "infinite black" response of the screen represent a real world feature (beyond silence on blank input)? If so then the lack of "infinite black" is a significant blow to Panasonic's marketing claims.

Whether or not this represents a breach worthy claim is another question.

I am wondering what I can do about this if anything - my set is 5 weeks old and I know that the black levels are going to increase, without necessity, in the next few weeks or so.

I wouldn't buy the G20 because it has the same problem albeit, possibly, to a lesser extent.

The deep blacks are what most reviews commend the 12g sets for. Without the deep blacks the sets have little that is outstanding - other than good gaming lag and ease of use.
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post #6688 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by oaleman View Post

Hi I'm planning on getting the 65" but with all of this talk about black levels rising now I'm not sure if I should. How is you particular set holding out have you noticed any changes in the black level? Thanks

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Originally Posted by DigitalSelf View Post

So far, I haven't noticed a significant change but my set has somewhere around 500 hours and from what I've read, the worst comes somewhere between 1000-1500 hours. Which is not much, to say the least...

I have a 58S1 with over 1,100 hours on it and I can honestly say that I cannot see any significant change in the black level.
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post #6689 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Retty View Post

The more I read about this problem the less I am convinced that the class action will have success.

Specially when most of what you read about are speculations from people that do now own the tv.

I think in Forum terminology, they are called "Concern Trolls"
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post #6690 of 11231 Old 03-11-2010, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by The_U View Post

Bob Perry quote...
In order to keep overall image quality high as a set ages, however, Panasonic makes several adjustments (Perry declined to be more specific, citing trade-secret concerns). One adjustment increases overall luminance after roughly three or four years (or less, for sets in frequent use).

Increasing luminance is normally done by increasing the number of sustain pulses. LG has a patent application on this very topic (PATENT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_U View Post

Do you know definitively why Panasonic does the voltage adjustment?

Nobody here does (except maybe D-Nice ). Most of the educated reasoning here comes from Panasonic patent literature (PATENT1, PATENT2). However, if some or all of the reasoning is truly embedded in a Trade Secret then it will not be in the patent literature.

The second patent from Panasonic is interesting in that they say initialization (black level) voltage in increased to prevent any need to increase address voltage. However, they never say why increasing address voltage is a problem.

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Originally Posted by The_U View Post

It could very well be to prevent misfiring due to aging phosphors. Do you know when the phosphors start misfiring if the voltage adjustment is not done? Is it after 20,000 hrs? If so, then my point is still valid.

Aging phosphors emit less visible light but should have no effect on initialization or address voltage. The problem is the voltage required to discharge the Xenon gas starts to rise with usage. If the panel does not adjust the voltage sent to the pixels the gas may not discharge at all (misfire), or it may discharge too little causing a failure of the subsequent address discharge and sustain discharge.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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