Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 226 - AVS Forum
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post #6751 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gringo1 View Post

Panasonic, do something !!!!!!!
My black is now dark gray.

If you want Panasonic to address "THE BLACK LEVEL ISSUE" you need to call P.A.N.A.S.O.N.I.C. If you call and they don't give you satisfaction ask for the Head of the USA Division. If he doesn't help then threaten to sue. If that doesn't work,....THEN SUE!!!!

ALL MY MONEY I SPENT ON AUDIO AND VIDEO; THE REST I JUST WASTED!
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post #6752 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by therealjoeblow View Post

Well, others with the same issues on the 2008 models should continue to pipe up then please. Panasonic's official response to me was that they are aware and investingating on 2009 models only.

When and how did Panasonic say to you that they are investigating the 2009 models?

Before Panasonic said, publicly, that it was not investigating the 2009 models because there was nothing to investigate?

At the same time as Panasonic US said that the black level stepping in the 2009 models was "coarse" compared to the 2010 range? That this was a devlopment refinement need addressed by the 2010 range? [It would be fascinating to know for sure whether or not Panasonic's own internal testing undercovered a widespread problem which required covering up in terms of the expensive fix that would otherwise be necessary].

There is something very odd going on here though: before the public stance of "no problem" was taken by Panasonic US, Panasonic in other countries (at least for example the UK) did start to investigate some problem sets.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome is with those investigations.

The fact is that now Panasonic UK, for example, are denying the existence of a black level problem except perhaps in "one model" which is "under investigation". They don't any longer seem interested in investigating the existence of a widespread problem.

It's being suggested in another forum - without any foundation imho - that whilst the voltage step technology is common to all 2009 (and 2010 models) the extreme version of the problem may represent a production flaw in some sets or models only.

A superficial reading of an UK based forum suggests that largely only the extreme version of the problem is being reported - as in this thread.

Is it possible that *some* 2009 models are more akin to less severely affected 2010 models?
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post #6753 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 04:23 PM
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Infinite Black Panel

A new panel and improvements to the cell discharge area dramatically increase contrast when viewing in brightly lit locations. And reducing the electrical pre-discharge that causes graying has greatly enhanced black gradation. As a result, deep, rich blacks are displayed in virtually any viewing area, from living rooms to bedrooms. Even in dark film scenes, fine textures such as on clothing, are clearly reproduced.

G25 Overview

Don't you just love how they turn the failings of the past into a marketing bulletpoint for the triumphs of the future...

"There are no problems with the current models, they are working exactly as they should." Someone should tell that to the marketing department.
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post #6754 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 04:28 PM
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I just off the phone with a supervisor at Panny. They kept stating the same line of BS. The TV is functioning as designed. I told them this is unacceptable and I want the panel replaced and they refused as there is nothing wrong with it.
I even asked if replacing my aboard which reset the hrs on the tv would lead to having the increased voltages even moreso and I am getting the higher FtL reading. Again the same BS. That wouldn't affect the TV and it is working designed, the picture is beautiful and it is the best tv on the market. - WTF? Really?

So they refused to do anything for me.

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post #6755 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 04:29 PM
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the whole 'life of the panel' thing confuses me... what good is it without standards and warrantee? I mean if a class action lawsuit was claiming, for instance, that the claimed panel life was much less than advertised, would that matter without warrantee on the panel? I would imagine the same rules would apply that apply with other things (like cars)... individual units may not be warranted for the claimed 100000 hrs, but if the manufacturer was aware of a design defect that resulted in a mean 50,000 hr panel life and still sold them as 100k panels, they'd be guilty of something (not a lawyer, so not sure what!).

Along these lines, and given that the half brightness measure of panel life only tells half the story, I would expect the class action lawsuit to argue the panel life is effectively a few hundred hours since doubling the MLL has the same effect as halving the peak brightness on contrast? Seriously, why did they choose brightness as the measure anyway... totally arbitrary and only a crude proxy for image quality. Forget the 'infinite black' argument of false advertising, what about panel life? I would make the argument (just have actually) that panel life on these sets is DESIGNED to be on the order of <1000hrs, panasonic is well aware of it through admission that the MLL increases are not a default but a 'design feature', and that they falsely claim an inflated panel life.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
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I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #6756 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

I just off the phone with a supervisor at Panny. They kept stating the same line of BS. The TV is functioning as designed. I told them this is unacceptable and I want the panel replaced and they refused as there is nothing wrong with it.
I even asked if replacing my aboard which reset the hrs on the tv would lead to having the increased voltages even moreso and I am getting the higher FtL reading. Again the same BS. That wouldn't affect the TV and it is working designed, the picture is beautiful and it is the best tv on the market. - WTF? Really?

So they refused to do anything for me.

Sadly, I, as a POTENTIAL customer, probably have more sway with panny than you as someone who they've already extracted cash from. Having said that, it is time I give them a call... I'm in the market for a 3D display of at least 58", and have no brand loyalties. If panny does not resolve this issue by the time CEDIA comes around, I'll take my $5k budget the way of front projection.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #6757 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

I just off the phone with a supervisor at Panny. They kept stating the same line of BS. The TV is functioning as designed. I told them this is unacceptable and I want the panel replaced and they refused as there is nothing wrong with it.
I even asked if replacing my aboard which reset the hrs on the tv would lead to having the increased voltages even moreso and I am getting the higher FtL reading. Again the same BS. That wouldn't affect the TV and it is working designed, the picture is beautiful and it is the best tv on the market. - WTF? Really?

So they refused to do anything for me.


I find this so hilarious. What do you expect? How about "Hey yeah, I know about the subtly rising blacks over the long term that is normal. That's not what I have. My set is broken, I've only had it for xxx days/weeks and watch only xx hours a day, and it now looks totally messed up, my contrast is terrible, any black areas are now visibly gray and my IR is really really bad. That is not intended/working as designed right?"

Unless, of course yours is not actually this bad, and it is a very subtle change, or none, in which case why are you calling?
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post #6758 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

This is my 3rd Panny TV, but my first Plasma and I am very disappointed with putting out almost $2K for a TV and having all these issues.
Since panny has no plans on fixing this issue, I fear this is going to be my last purchase from them ever.
I got this based on the raving reviews from Cnet and all the other companies. I feel like panny mugged me and took my money.

Speaking of which, the heart specialist at HD Guru has reviewed the VT20

http://hdguru.com/panasonic-tc-p50vt...t-review/1391/

Btw, I was thinking what they would say if you told them the a-board made your picture deteriorate and not use any key words like black etc. No point given what they are saying.

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post #6759 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Believe me, I won't make any effort. Even prior to the elevated black levels on the Panasonics I preferred the pic on the Sammys. So why should I care if after the rise the Panny blacks remain slightly better, or end up even, or worse than the black levels on the Samsungs?

2010 ought to be a much more interesting contest, now that Panasonic finally offers some step-up models with a decent AR filter, and we're getting reports that the processing is much improved, and Panasonic is finally offering some advanced picture controls and calibration options in the user menus. A THX mode not limited to a dim 25-30 ftL also makes things much more interesting. Hey, Panasonic is even finally offering some swivel stands on certain of their models. They're looking more and more like Samsungs all the time! Who knows, maybe we will get lucky in 2011 and they will even throw in PIP on one of their models?

Dude, it's called an HD-DVR. Personally, I could care less if a tv uses PIP.
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post #6760 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 06:28 PM
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There's the problem...they must have accidentally put a conventional panel in my V10.
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post #6761 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CO1 View Post



There's the problem...they must have accidentally put a conventional panel in my V10.

Is the black level increase really that severe?
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post #6762 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by UofA fan View Post

Is the black level increase really that severe?

No. At least not from what I'm seeing with an ftL of .014-.017.

That looks worse than my brother's 5 year old LCD.

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post #6763 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 07:00 PM
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To be honest, when displaying a pure black image that is what my set looks like. The difference in lightness between the picture and the black bezel is about as much as those two images.

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post #6764 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cody1811 View Post

Dude, it's called an HD-DVR. Personally, I could care less if a tv uses PIP.

We need to stop feeding the troll. The guys miserable and by arguing with him you make him happy.
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post #6765 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 07:21 PM
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Those pictures posted above should state Panasonic and Pioneer.

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post #6766 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by iamnotmad View Post

my contrast is terrible, any black areas are now visibly gray and my IR is really really bad.

Unless, of course yours is not actually this bad, and it is a very subtle change, or none, in which case why are you calling?

I stated exactly that. They said that is normal and the picture quality is still excellent. I explained how I got this tv to watch 2.35:1 movies in a pitch black room and the black bars are gray... and he stated this is working fine.

Corporate is telling these clowns to state there is nothing wrong. I hope the lawyers mop the floor with them.

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post #6767 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Believe me, I won't make any effort. Even prior to the elevated black levels on the Panasonics I preferred the pic on the Sammys. So why should I care if after the rise the Panny blacks remain slightly better, or end up even, or worse than the black levels on the Samsungs?

So get lost Troll!!!!
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post #6768 of 11477 Old 03-12-2010, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

I explained how I got this tv to watch 2.35:1 movies in a pitch black room and the black bars are gray

Don´t know is it just for letterboxed / 4:3 picture but at least with European models there is setting for those bars...
Setup-->Other Settings-->Display Settings-->Side Panel
-off
-Low
-Mid
-High

Manual says it´s recommended to use "High" to avoid burn-in
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post #6769 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

I stated exactly that. They said that is normal and the picture quality is still excellent. I explained how I got this tv to watch 2.35:1 movies in a pitch black room and the black bars are gray... and he stated this is working fine.

Corporate is telling these clowns to state there is nothing wrong. I hope the lawyers mop the floor with them.


I've read several of your posts about contact with Panasonic and though I could be wrong, I don't think you are doing it right.

The nameless phone center droid that you talk to when you call in cannot help you even if they want to. You have to escalate to their supervisors. I find that firm insistence without being shrill or trying to convince them of anything (remember, they can't help you) works best.

Once you get the supervisor, you demand a service call under the terms of the warranty. They cannot possibly know if your tv is operating within specs without sending a tech to examine it. So don't let them tell you otherwise.

You have a couple things working against you in this crusade. One, you have a long history of ineffective, and probably in their view, hypochondriacal calls on record to Panasonic. They see all that on their screens, so they are already attuned to what to expect - called a devil customer in some parlance.

Two, you have already had a tech out and service work done (which could help you if you play it right) and aren't demonstrating to their satisfaction any real reason to have the tech back, only the same nebulous complaints they are prepared against if monitoring this board. Black levels, IR, etc. What if you alleged a new problem, or tied an existing one to the work of the tech? Some of the things you report could be tied to his repair, and they won't know until they send another tech to inspect.

Lastly, and this is the hard one to hear, so bear with me, you seem really whiny, and yet easily deflected. "My tv doesn't work the way it should." "Yes it does" "Panasonic isn't fixing my extremely nonspecific problem" "You don't have a problem, everything is normal" "But it shouldn't be like this" "Sorry to hear that sir, everything is operating as it should" "Waah waah waah" Etc., etc., etc. Not the way to get customer service from a nameless, faceless corporate entity. They don't care about you, or your problem, and no amount of righteous indignation will change that.

Give them a specific issue covered by their warranty so that they cannot explain away liability, and then force them to adhere to the terms of the warranty. They've already demonstrated culpability by attempting to fix some sets with drastic black rise, but it took some squeaky wheels squeaking the right way. The only way this doesn't work? If you legitimately don't have a problem and want Panasonic to somehow fix THAT. No help anywhere for that one, except maybe psychiatric.
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post #6770 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

Iwarranty. They've already demonstrated culpability by attempting to fix some sets with drastic black rise, but it took some squeaky wheels squeaking the right way. The only way this doesn't work? If you legitimately don't have a problem and want Panasonic to somehow fix THAT. No help anywhere for that one, except maybe psychiatric.

OK can you please elaborate how they did this?

If it was by a firmware fix then can those people who claim this make the fw available to us otherwise it is just hear-say.

This thread started in September 2009 it is now March 2010 and still no resolution.
Are people using this thread to just vent their anger/disappointment.

Let me be the Devil's advocate for a short while.

Firstly like all manufacturers Panasonic have misrepresented the black levels of their sets from the day we bought them.

Claims like 2000000:1 contrast ratio's are total bs to start with.
Samsung,Sony and LG also claim bs contrast ratio's.


Folk are claiming deception in advertising about the black levels.
My point is that this occurred even before the panel's voltage increased as it did.
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post #6771 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CO1 View Post



There's the problem...they must have accidentally put a conventional panel in my V10.

ya
I've got a finite black panel too
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post #6772 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 02:33 AM
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I didn't realize how bad my black levels were until now.. I mean I knew they were garbage compared to my kuro but here's a comparison to my $180 Dell p2310h LCD monitor





oh
and I tried to get rid of the IR this time.. I ran the white bar for about 10 minutes.. got the screen blank but from this was the result after 20 seconds of navigating through my PS3 menu to load up the 0 ire image posted earlier



so ya..... I think I' gonna call panasonic up again and ask them why they programmed their tv to have worse black levels than a cheap ass LCD monitor after 3 months
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post #6773 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 02:58 AM
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oh
and I tried to get rid of the IR this time.. I ran the white bar for about 10 minutes.. got the screen blank but from this was the result after 20 seconds of navigating through my PS3 menu to load up the 0 ire image posted earlier

So your Panasonic screen looked that after running that screen-wipe white bar, (that caused it)?

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post #6774 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 03:41 AM
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Just for fun.
LL
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post #6775 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 05:35 AM
 
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I think the so-called scientific evaluations went out the window a while ago anyway.
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post #6776 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

I've read several of your posts about contact with Panasonic and though I could be wrong, I don't think you are doing it right.

The nameless phone center droid that you talk to when you call in cannot help you even if they want to. You have to escalate to their supervisors. I find that firm insistence without being shrill or trying to convince them of anything (remember, they can't help you) works best.

Once you get the supervisor, you demand a service call under the terms of the warranty. They cannot possibly know if your tv is operating within specs without sending a tech to examine it. So don't let them tell you otherwise.

You have a couple things working against you in this crusade. One, you have a long history of ineffective, and probably in their view, hypochondriacal calls on record to Panasonic. They see all that on their screens, so they are already attuned to what to expect - called a devil customer in some parlance.

Two, you have already had a tech out and service work done (which could help you if you play it right) and aren't demonstrating to their satisfaction any real reason to have the tech back, only the same nebulous complaints they are prepared against if monitoring this board. Black levels, IR, etc. What if you alleged a new problem, or tied an existing one to the work of the tech? Some of the things you report could be tied to his repair, and they won't know until they send another tech to inspect.

Lastly, and this is the hard one to hear, so bear with me, you seem really whiny, and yet easily deflected. "My tv doesn't work the way it should." "Yes it does" "Panasonic isn't fixing my extremely nonspecific problem" "You don't have a problem, everything is normal" "But it shouldn't be like this" "Sorry to hear that sir, everything is operating as it should" "Waah waah waah" Etc., etc., etc. Not the way to get customer service from a nameless, faceless corporate entity. They don't care about you, or your problem, and no amount of righteous indignation will change that.

Give them a specific issue covered by their warranty so that they cannot explain away liability, and then force them to adhere to the terms of the warranty. They've already demonstrated culpability by attempting to fix some sets with drastic black rise, but it took some squeaky wheels squeaking the right way. The only way this doesn't work? If you legitimately don't have a problem and want Panasonic to somehow fix THAT. No help anywhere for that one, except maybe psychiatric.

I specificlly told them my problem is the horrible blacks. I gave them numbers. I told them it looks worse than an LCD. I told them specifically I got this due to the Kuro like blacks that were advertised so I can watch movies on it. They said it is working like it was designed. No matter what I said they didn't care. I was on the phone for over 30 minutes with this guy and he said the same thing over and over and over no matter what I said. I'm not typing our whole conversation here.
The tech that comes out to my house is the same guy. He only fixes problems. He doesn't look at the PQ, and especially the blacks. He wouldn't be able to tell anyway in the daytime.
I'm sure everyone at panny is told to not help us. If they do and replace a the tv due to black levels, that is an admission of guilt and their goes the lawsuit for them.
It may seem whiney on here, just because it is in black and white, but it wasn't that way on the phone.

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post #6777 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 07:25 AM
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Give them a specific issue covered by their warranty so that they cannot explain away liability, and then force them to adhere to the terms of the warranty.

This! That's what I did. I pointed out other legitimate faults in the set & am awaiting the delivery of a G2 hopefully soon. Panny refunded the cost of the set to where I bought it. Ironically my biggest problem is finding a new replacement set. I'm hoping Monday they can give me a date for delivery that will likely take a month or two. My only other option would be to buy another set/brand or accept a 50G10 floor display model which doesn't thrill me. And yes I know 13G's will have the issue to some degree too but I'm going in knowing that.

In the mean time I'm enjoying my current set. Look discerningly at your set for other things besides black level. I'll bet there is something "not by design" on your set.
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post #6778 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

The scrolling white bar masks and washes away IR but with the result of creating the equivalent of full screen IR. You will always get a higher MLL reading right after using the white bar.

It's time after almost 7000 post for someone to develop a standard test method. Without one, the data is meaningless except to show that the MLL rises with time.

I do not volunteer for this undertaking.

Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuyInTheChair View Post

I didn't realize how bad my black levels were until now.. I mean I knew they were garbage compared to my kuro but here's a comparison to my $180 Dell p2310h LCD monitor





oh
and I tried to get rid of the IR this time.. I ran the white bar for about 10 minutes.. got the screen blank but from this was the result after 20 seconds of navigating through my PS3 menu to load up the 0 ire image posted earlier



so ya..... I think I' gonna call panasonic up again and ask them why they programmed their tv to have worse black levels than a cheap ass LCD monitor after 3 months

According to Larry, running the white bar, before taking measurements, will lead to getting a higher MLL reading.

See a quote of his comment, above.
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post #6779 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

According to Larry, running the white bar, before taking measurements, will lead to getting a higher MLL reading.

See a quote of his comment, above.

That's ridiculous! So Panasonic's "answer" to help/fix IR/BI is to burn-in the entire screen more??? That's another lawsuit in the making. I don't recall reading in the manual "...Using this feature will turn your blacks gray".

Now I'm wondering if that's what is causing this problem for many owners! Did anyone remember if they ran the video-wipe just before they noticed their blacks turning gray?

I'm also wondering if this "damage" also happens with other HDTV's that have the video-wipe feature.

God Bless,
-Clint
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post #6780 of 11477 Old 03-13-2010, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

That's ridiculous! So Panasonic's "answer" to help/fix IR/BI is to burn-in the entire screen more??? That's another lawsuit in the making. I don't recall reading in the manual "...Using this feature will turn your blacks gray".

Now I'm wondering if that's what is causing this problem for many owners! Did anyone remember if they ran the video-wipe just before they noticed their blacks turning gray?

I'm also wondering if this "damage" also happens with other HDTV's that have the video-wipe feature.

I don't think that what's happening. I think it will only affect the MLL reading of a 0 IRE say temporarily. I didn't read Larry's post so I don't wish to put words in his mouth but I suspect he's suggesting this so people don't wind up with inflated MLL readings due to their testing procedures & not as a result of the sets true level.
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