Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 229 - AVS Forum
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post #6841 of 11403 Old 03-14-2010, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by calvin35 View Post

Actually I have read a lot but not all. Just want to know at what level and how many hours the black level will finally stop rising. Sorry if I missed that.

No one knows when it will stop. Panasonic claims it will level off eventually. Only Larry, I believe, shows a leveling off/decrease of MLL. Some MLL's measure as high as 0.032 ftL.

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post #6842 of 11403 Old 03-14-2010, 11:29 PM
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.032 So if I go by what Panasonic has say I can expect that the 2010s will also rise to this level? Panasonic, I believe, is hiding behind the word "gradual". Unlike most here I don't take this to mean slower. Could they just mean more smaller rises over the same period of time?

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post #6843 of 11403 Old 03-14-2010, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by calvin35 View Post

.032 So if I go by what Panasonic has say I can expect that the 2010s will also rise to this level? Panasonic, I believe, is hiding behind the word "gradual". Unlike most here I don't take this to mean slower. Could they just mean more smaller rises over the same period of time?

Could be, but who knows? I wouldn't trust them. So far only 46-54 inch sizes have gotten that bad. 58-65 inch sets aren't affected much yet. My 58V10 measures 0.009 after 950 hours but who knows what will eventually happen.

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post #6844 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 12:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

Even though many of you are 'wishing' that your new Panny's had blacker blacks ( I wish my 3 year old 60u did too!), here's something to ponder. I visited a buddies house last night. He bought a new 50 inch LG 1080p plasma in January. Bright scenes looked very nice...but boy do the black levels suck on that set! Even in a fairly bright room these was a VERY obvious glow to them. My old Panny is far better, and the newer Pannys I have seen are far far better than the LG. Even with elevated black levels, the Pannys are still far superior to LG sets! Kuro blacks would be great, but for now it seems Panny is still about as good as currently made plasmas get. I saw a high end Toshiba LED 55 inch 670 series set at Magnolia yesterday. It looked great to my eyes compared to the plasmas around it...really BLACK blacks..but C-Net gave that set a so so review. Main issues were blooming and backlight fluctuations, so I guess every set has SOME issues.

Oh, I thought everyone knew that LG stands for "Light Grays" (spelled "greys" if you are in England).
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post #6845 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

I agree Samsung does have good PQ while it last. But unless you're like Documaker and buy a new TV every 6 months I just can't see sacrificing the reliability of the panny for Korean junk.

I'll take PQ over reliability. It's not like a stuck accelerator that is going to endanger the life of your family. If you register your Samsung online you get 15 months of warranty. My CC will extend the original warranty to two years. If it breaks, just have Samsung send someone to fix it. I always see Samsungs in the stores with weird lines running through the screen. I just saw two Samsungs on display at Best Buy with lines running through them: one a skinny dark green vertical line, the other probably a hundred thin horizontal lines running through the display from top to bottom. If you buy on the cheap at the end of the model year, with any luck they won't have replacement parts and in six months when it breaks you will get upgraded to the new model!
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post #6846 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Retty View Post

Exactly.

Had the reviewers, including CNET, known about the voltage gradient technology they would have been less likely to recommend Panasonic. CNET I believe the reversed its buying recommendations for 2009 sets in view of Panasonic's disclosure.

CNET also seems to do most of their side-by-side review comparisons using Blu Ray films. Naturally they are going to watch these in the dark, under carefuly controlled, sterile conditions. This skews the comparison toward the natural strengths of the Panasonic, because they don't have to contend with the lighter AR filter in the dark, and with HQ 1080p content they don't get a dose of the inferior Panny processing.

If they included some cable/satellite TV content in their comparisons, Samsung would impress them much more, with its superior processing.

That's why CNET reviews are only one piece of the puzzle, and like all reviews, must be taken in context.
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post #6847 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

I've been looking through my back issues of Home Theater magazine and the thing that really sucks is that they generally refer to any display device with a black level of greater than 0.010 as "mediocre". My V10's MLL hasn't risen much yet (if any) but it only measures 0.009 (one-thousandth of a ftL. better than "mediocre"). HT measured the 58V10 at 0.005 ftL. NOBODY actually gets that close and most are far worse (>0.020 ftL.).

Although the Panny has many other features that make it better than the competition, these measured black levels absolutely suck! It's not enough that they're better than the rest of the crappy competition out there. The black levels were supposed to be close to Kuro level performance (as early reviews tested them to be) not garbage LCDs from 3 years ago.

Panasonic should not only be ashamed of themselves but they are giving plasmas a bad name. I swore I'd never buy an LCD (see my sig below) but if Panasonic (or somebody else) doesn't change things, plasmas will go the way of the dinosaur.

PLASMAS ARE KNOWN FOR EXCELLENT BLACKS. MLL LEVELS OF 0.020 (hell, even 0.010) ON SETS THAT TESTED AT 0.005 ARE AN ABSOLUTE JOKE AND PANASONIC IS THE LOWEST OF THE LOW FOR NOT ADDRESSING IT PROPERLY!

See the bold type above, Panasonic? THAT's black.

Ugh. This is very saddening. Without awesome blacks...plasma loses its biggest advantage.


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post #6848 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 05:50 AM
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For the doubters or trolls in this thread.
GO to best buy for yourselves and look at the pannys compared to even lcds and you will see how horrible the black are.

I was able to see instantly how gray the black bars are compared to sony lcds. The sony LCD had black bars and the panny was a lot worse.

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post #6849 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 05:52 AM
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All plasmas are aging day by day. To ensure equal image quality over time, all manufacturers use an automatic Adjustment Circuit to compensate the this aging process.
Exception: you perform a ISF calibration and save the settings. Thus, you will have the same deep black levels, but the overall picture will be getting darker and darker over time. After a few years a new calibration has to done. The black levels will never be as deep as at the first calibration.

All Pioneer, Samsung or Panasonic plasmas without a possibility of a ISF calibration will rise its black levels with the time.

Do you really believe that a Pioneer Plasma after 5 years of use will have the same black and luminance levels like on the first day?

Josh
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post #6850 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TV-Junky View Post

All plasmas are aging day by day. To ensure equal image quality over time, all manufacturers use an automatic Adjustment Circuit to compensate the this aging process.
Exception: you perform a ISF calibration and save the settings. Thus, you will have the same deep black levels, but the overall picture will be getting darker and darker over time. After a few years a new calibration has to done. The black levels will never be as deep as at the first calibration.

All Pioneer, Samsung or Panasonic plasmas without a possibility of a ISF calibration will rise its black levels with the time.

Do you really believe that a Pioneer Plasma after 5 years of use will have the same black and luminance levels like on the first day?

Josh

Yeah they all do voltage adjustments but only Panny does it in addition to raising the MLL. No one's complaining about sets losing brightness over the long term we get that. Having our Contrast level reduced to a third in the first 1000 hours is another matter. And if say a Samsung started out at 0.016 it doesn't go to 0.048 by the 1000 hour mark.

I don't think you can compare the two scenarios at all.
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post #6851 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 06:29 AM
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I have the opportunity to sell my g10, and buy a samsung LED 46B6000.
My 46g10 has less than 200 hours and observed no change in the black and the picture quality is excellent, but I worry about this issue ...

What do you think?
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post #6852 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bendergender View Post

I have the opportunity to sell my g10, and buy a samsung LED 46B6000.
My 46g10 has less than 200 hours and observed no change in the black and the picture quality is excellent, but I worry about this issue ...

What do you think?

Unfortunately, your set is one of the prime candidates for the MLL rise. Don't know anything about the Samsung, but I would return the Panny if I could.

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post #6853 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bendergender View Post

I have the opportunity to sell my g10, and buy a samsung LED 46B6000.
My 46g10 has less than 200 hours and observed no change in the black and the picture quality is excellent, but I worry about this issue ...

What do you think?

I definitely wouldn't chance it with the G10, but I'd still take it with the risen blacks over the B6000. Other than the B8500, every Samsung LED-LCD I have first-hand experience with has been garbage. Inconsistent blacks, poor motion handling, extremely poor off-axis viewing... they're just not for me. Do you have any other options?
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post #6854 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 09:16 AM
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I was at the Magnolia showroom in BB. They have the same PN50A550? Samsung Plasma pairs running now for over 1 year day and night. To me, the black levels on the calibrated and uncalibrated unit were waaay better than my Panny S1 panel. I'm sure those Samsungs had thousands of hours on them.
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post #6855 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bendergender View Post

I have the opportunity to sell my g10, and buy a samsung LED 46B6000.
My 46g10 has less than 200 hours and observed no change in the black and the picture quality is excellent, but I worry about this issue ...

What do you think?

I have exchanged mine rised pany for samsung 40b8000 in my bedroom. Blacks are notably darker with samsung even in dark room. I dont know how bad was mll for pany though as i dont have meter. Definately over 0.03

There should be my signature
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post #6856 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

I definitely wouldn't chance it with the G10, but I'd still take it with the risen blacks over the B6000. Other than the B8500, every Samsung LED-LCD I have first-hand experience with has been garbage. Inconsistent blacks, poor motion handling, extremely poor off-axis viewing... they're just not for me. Do you have any other options?

Thanks.

The option is LED Samsung B6000, or stay with my g10 and hope that the black level does not change much.
I watch TV in a room with ambient light at night, not in a completely dark room.
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post #6857 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bendergender View Post

Thanks.

The option is LED Samsung B6000, or stay with my g10 and hope that the black level does not change much.
I watch TV in a room with ambient light at night, not in a completely dark room.

If it were me, no way I'd exchange my 42G10 for any LCD, the quality degradation with off axis viewing alone is enough for me to stay away from LCD. My bro has a top end LED local dimming samsung lcd and off axis the blacks and the image as a whole are drastically degraded. Check them out for yourself.
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post #6858 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 View Post

For the doubters or trolls in this thread.
GO to best buy for yourselves and look at the pannys compared to even lcds and you will see how horrible the black are.

I was able to see instantly how gray the black bars are compared to sony lcds. The sony LCD had black bars and the panny was a lot worse.

I have yet to see ANY Panny set on display with 'horrible' blacks, let's get real here. No they are not absolute inky black, but they are hardly worthy of being called horrible. Some of the LED LCD's do have blacker blacks, but show other issues like blooming, and fluctuating brightness levels, bad off angle PQ etc. NO set is perfect,(not even the Kuro), and the Panny plasmas are still about as good as you can buy for overall performance at this time since the Kuro has stopped production. Not trying to say I wouldn't be dissapointed at rising black levels, and I would be wishing for a fix, but for the vast majority of owners I doubt it is a huge issue to them.
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post #6859 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

I'll take PQ over reliability. It's not like a stuck accelerator that is going to endanger the life of your family. If you register your Samsung online you get 15 months of warranty. My CC will extend the original warranty to two years. If it breaks, just have Samsung send someone to fix it. I always see Samsungs in the stores with weird lines running through the screen. I just saw two Samsungs on display at Best Buy with lines running through them: one a skinny dark green vertical line, the other probably a hundred thin horizontal lines running through the display from top to bottom. If you buy on the cheap at the end of the model year, with any luck they won't have replacement parts and in six months when it breaks you will get upgraded to the new model!

what about the yellowish tint on the pannys? if your watching a bright outdoor scene, it looks yellow on a panny. the pannys picture is more layered though. they both have their pros, and cons, and yes i own both.
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post #6860 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

I've always used mixed content before this set of measurements and got a reading of 0.009. The reason I thought about using the scroll bar this time was that the white bar moves pretty fast and doesn't illuminate a pixel for a long time. Mixed content could potentially leave a bright spot in the middle of the screen (where the sensor is placed) depending on what mixed content you are watching. However, it did measure 0.012 which is slightly higher than usual so you're probably right about it being too intense.

My measurement of MLL with "virtually no IR" was with a full-field black for 30 minutes of warm-up (0.009).

To me, this 100% supports the idea that the white scroll bar technique is not a good one. You get 0.009 with black-screen warm up, 0.009 with mixed full screen content.... but 0.012 with the white scroll bar. That's a pretty solid indictment of how the IR can affect the image (and supports what others see with their measurements when they have IR from the white window patterns after measuring grayscale).


Quote:
Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

950 hours. MLL is relatively unchanged by I used to measure 0.008 all the time and now it's always 0.009. I found a really old reading of 0.006 but that was when I first got the meter and who knows what I was doing back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotmad View Post

So, uh, either this is suspect or it renders other data suspect. Doesn't this show us that not all sets are effected? In additional you sound rather diligent in your measurement methodology, more so than others.

Actually not at all -- it is reasonable to assume that his 58V10 started out around 0.005-0.006 light other 58/65 sets, thus his current state of 0.008-0.009 represents a slight rise and is right in line with the other 58/65 sets we have data for.

If the 58/65 sets hold with the trend, we would expect robi's set (along with other 58/65 models) to start measuring more like 0.012 at some point after crossing the 1000hr mark. We shall see! The big question (and one for which we have no data) is whether the big sets (58/65) will end up tripling to 0.015-0.018 once they get around 2000+ hrs.

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post #6861 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:37 PM
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Does anyone have any info on 2008 850U (50") series? I don't seem to see any problem (which should be my answer), but I was wondering if anyone with this model has.
Katzman
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post #6862 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:42 PM
 
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Your set most likely has some rise in Black Levels, however, you may not be able to notice it just as myself and some of the other members here. Best advice is to enjoy until you really notice a problem of some sort.
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post #6863 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:57 PM
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I have a new i1LT measurement for 65S1. So far it seems to be holding up pretty well compared to other sets during the first 200 hrs.

0.006 ftL @ 185 hrs

Previously,

0.006 ftL @ 114 hrs
0.005 ftL @ 4 hrs
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post #6864 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 01:58 PM
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For those of us who are now in the acceptance phase of this issue and trying to move on with our lives (ha ha), is there a general idea of where a 12G Panasonic G/V would rank in terms of other TVs past or present. What I would be interested in seeing is a list such as the following:

1. CRT model from manufacturer X circa 2000
2. next best black level
3. next best.....
4. next best.....
...
12. Panasonic 12G G10 (with elevated black levels)

Doesn't have to be very scientific or verifiable. Just curious.
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post #6865 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katzman View Post

Does anyone have any info on 2008 850U (50") series? I don't seem to see any problem (which should be my answer), but I was wondering if anyone with this model has.
Katzman

I have a 58" PZ800U. Here are my readings, see for yourself:
@200 hrs: 0.008 ftL
@537 hrs: 0.014 ftL
@802 hrs: 0.015 ftL
@986 hrs: 0.013 ftL
@1014 hrs: 0.014 ftL

The PZ850U probably exhibits the same rise in MLL as the PZ800U.
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post #6866 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katzman View Post

Does anyone have any info on 2008 850U (50") series? I don't seem to see any problem (which should be my answer), but I was wondering if anyone with this model has.
Katzman


I had a px80u -- same generation -- for a year. I detected no change in MLL during that time. It was 0.016 ftL the first time I calibrated it at about 200 hours. It was at 0.016 ftL when I touched up the calibration just before giving it to a relative. It had at least 3000-3500 hours on it then.

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post #6867 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 02:19 PM
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Well, I think I'll just go back to watching TV instead of straining my eyes looking for faults. Katzman
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post #6868 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 02:43 PM
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How do we check service hours? I have a 65 v10 that I think is approaching 1000 hrs.

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post #6869 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 02:45 PM
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Right behind ya, katzman. I think I'll join you in watching the content being displayed on my px80u.
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post #6870 of 11403 Old 03-15-2010, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

To me, this 100% supports the idea that the white scroll bar technique is not a good one. You get 0.009 with black-screen warm up, 0.009 with mixed full screen content.... but 0.012 with the white scroll bar. That's a pretty solid indictment of how the IR can affect the image (and supports what others see with their measurements when they have IR from the white window patterns after measuring grayscale).

I agree but it wasn't a controlled test as I just did it for the hell of it and not because I had a standard to go by. The reason I say this is because I think I used the scrolling bar after I ran the full grayscale test which included that searing 100% window that stays in the middle of the screen. So was my 0.012 measurement a result of the window or the scrolling bar? I'm not sure.

Either way though, if you want the lowest reading, I doubt the scroll bar is very good but I'll have to retest at some point to verify this. Whatever the case, we definitely need more consistency in measuring but luckily it doesn't affect the results too much.

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