Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 11209 Old 11-29-2009, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

LarryINRI are you working for Panasonic ? since we start this thread you keep denying some issues with panasonic plasma. Nothing makes sense to you when someone comes with something up. I was just wondering why so devoted?


1) No, I don't work for Panasonic. I am a physicist with no connection to any commercial manufacturer. However, I have years of experience in the concept, design, development, fabrication, and maintenance of high tech aerospace electronic devices.

2) I have never denied any issues having to do with Panasonic plasmas. I believe in numbers -- and only numbers that can be reproduced. I do not pay attention to hearsay and anecdotal evidence. In the case being discussed in this thread, we have essentially one set of numbers showing an increase in black level and another set of numbers showing no change. At this moment, I stand unconvinced because of possible anomalies -- just like the infamous 50X1 "diagonal line" issue which turned out to be an extremely insignificant matter seen on a handful of sets by a handful of owners -- and one reviewer who overreacted.

3) I am not devoted to Panasonic. I have never even mentioned the name of a competing company to Panasonic. It's not what I do. I discuss only Panasonic models since I know only about Panasonic plasma TVs from years of calibrating them. (I used to calibrate RCA studio monitors and Sony XBR CRT sets for my lab work but that was many years ago.)


And since you have made this very personal, why are you so negative about Panasonic? You and a handful of others keep saying there is something wrong with your Panasonic TVs but you refuse to present any numbers. Do you perhaps work for a competing company?

Larry
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post #722 of 11209 Old 11-29-2009, 06:33 PM
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jlsavs,
Have you been in the S1 threads and listened to what other owners have said about their sets. I know that some of them have calibrated their sets or had them professionally calibrated. Also try to read other magazine reviews and see if they repeat the comments from the review you cite. CNET.com gives fairly reliable review IMO. Try reading theirs. I say this without having personally read any reviews of the S1 but I am confident that they will be positive. Remember also that their is no tv that is perfect so no matter what review you read about any display there will be some comments that are not 100% positive. Google "S1 reviews" and see what other mags are saying.

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post #723 of 11209 Old 11-29-2009, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

1) No, I don't work for Panasonic. I am a physicist with no connection to any commercial manufacturer. However, I have years of experience in the concept, design, development, fabrication, and maintenance of high tech aerospace electronic devices.

2) I have never denied any issues having to do with Panasonic plasmas. I believe in numbers -- and only numbers that can be reproduced. I do not pay attention to hearsay and anecdotal evidence. In the case being discussed in this thread, we have essentially one set of numbers showing an increase in black level and another set of numbers showing no change. At this moment, I stand unconvinced because of possible anomalies -- just like the infamous 50X1 "diagonal line" issue which turned out to be an extremely insignificant matter seen on a handful of sets by a handful of owners -- and one reviewer who overreacted.

3) I am not devoted to Panasonic. I have never even mentioned the name of a competing company to Panasonic. It's not what I do. I discuss only Panasonic models since I know only about Panasonic plasma TVs from years of calibrating them. (I used to calibrate RCA studio monitors and Sony XBR CRT sets for my lab work but that was many years ago.)


And since you have made this very personal, why are you so negative about Panasonic? You and a handful of others keep saying there is something wrong with your Panasonic TVs but you refuse to present any numbers. Do you perhaps work for a competing company?

Larry

i respect your reply! i am not trying to be negative but since my TV was fine and all of the sudden my PQ is not the same next day of course i am doubting something. I am very disappointed with technicians were at my house representing Panasonic, i am very disappointed in their answers and knowledge , i am very disappointed in PANASONIC the company. Their people have no clue about PQ.... all they know is 720p and 1080p !!! They make me a liar because from what field technicians said my tv is running fine.
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post #724 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

About black level: "... Plasma televisions are known for their deep blacks as unlike LCD's they don't have to have their backlight on all the time."

Plasma's have a backlight???

What they simply mean by that is plasmas do not have the disadvantage of backlights. I see no problem with their wording.

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post #725 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

This problem - in combination with the horrible "TUNNEL CONTRAST" performance - have me holding off my S1 purchase.

Strange that no one seems to care if the contrast ratio falls WAY down to a very very poor 85:1 ... when theres plenty of white on the screen. This fact came out of a televisioninfo.com review as I recall.

The 2010 models hopefully will be solid.

jls.

ANSI contrast ratio is not that important. It's hard to tell how deep the blacks are when there is bright content on the screen.

That website has no idea what they're doing, you really should ignore it anyway (they consider calibration making the peak white as bright as possible for instance). ANSI contrast ratio for plasmas is generally around 200:1 to 300:1 which is the limits of what the human eye can perceive under ideal circumstances.

I don't think plasmas will ever compare to lcds for ANSI contrast because plasmas have floating blacks, lcds don't. If you're waiting to see if they can make a flat panel with both high full on/off contrast AND ansi, you'll be waiting for oled and not the 2010 plasmas.

Anyway that should explain why it's not that important. Sorry for being OT back to doubling black levels now.
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post #726 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 10:35 AM
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Now thats interesting ... I'd known about floating WHITES ... but not about floating blacks !

What technical plasma issue contributes to floating blacks ?

Curious as to why Plasmas have a weak ansi performance ... is it the plasma cell structure that bleeds white into adjacent areas ?

jls.
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post #727 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Now thats interesting ... I'd known about floating WHITES ... but not about floating blacks !

What technical plasma issue contributes to floating blacks ?

Curious as to why Plasmas have a weak ansi performance ... is it the plasma cell structure that bleeds white into adjacent areas ?

jls.

I would guess something to do with phosphors because crts also have it, and it's usually worse with crts. Most people don't notice because it's not really an issue since we're relatively insensitive to ansi contrast.
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post #728 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 01:21 PM
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Guys, i will have mine changed next week..

Go with a 54v10 or a 58b650.....

I have a very good price on the V10 but lost patience with panasonic....

What to do ?
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post #729 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Now thats interesting ... I'd known about floating WHITES ... but not about floating blacks !

What technical plasma issue contributes to floating blacks ?

Curious as to why Plasmas have a weak ansi performance ... is it the plasma cell structure that bleeds white into adjacent areas ?

jls.

Floating black level has been around since the first CRT televisions in the 1930s and 1940s.

Floating black level is when the black level changes with average picture level -- black areas of the screen get brighter or darker as average picture brightness changes.

Originally, in the old NTSC analog CRT TV systems, it was something undesirable and to be avoided. (It was a caused by an inadequate regulation of voltage in the power supply. Look up the waveform of an NTSC signal and you'll see the black voltage level that I mean.)

However, it appears that Panasonic is using it to give the illusion of better blacks and contrast. It is extremely annoying but fortunately there is some picture mode in each model that essentially eliminates it -- that clamps the black level. On some models it is the Cinema mode while on others it is the THX mode.

Larry
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post #730 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

However, it appears that Panasonic is using it to give the illusion of better blacks and contrast. It is extremely annoying but fortunately there is some picture mode in each model that essentially eliminates it -- that clamps the black level. On some models it is the Cinema mode while on others it is the THX mode.

Larry

Oh is that where they get dynamic contrast ratios from?
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post #731 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 01:47 PM
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Who knows where marketing departments get their numbers? Most seem made up.

Larry
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post #732 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Floating black level has been around since the first CRT televisions in the 1930s and 1940s.

Floating black level is when the black level changes with average picture level -- black areas of the screen get brighter or darker as average picture brightness changes.

Originally, in the old NTSC analog CRT TV systems, it was something undesirable and to be avoided. (It was a caused by an inadequate regulation of voltage in the power supply. Look up the waveform of an NTSC signal and you'll see the black voltage level that I mean.)

However, it appears that Panasonic is using it to give the illusion of better blacks and contrast. It is extremely annoying but fortunately there is some picture mode in each model that essentially eliminates it -- that clamps the black level. On some models it is the Cinema mode while on others it is the THX mode.

Larry

However, in the G10 line (and probably the entire NEO line) they have removed it. It is nowhere to be found on my 54g10 (either of the units I have had) I have used every mode but dynamic extensively and it just isn't there.

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post #733 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

However, in the G10 line (and probably the entire NEO line) they have removed it. It is nowhere to be found on my 54g10 (either of the units I have had) I have used every mode but dynamic extensively and it just isn't there.

Could be. I sincerely hope so.

Larry
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post #734 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Could be. I sincerely hope so.

Larry

Believe me, if my G10 also had floating blacks on top of the raised black levels, it would already be gone. I dealt with that once with my 42px75 and I refuse to have any TV that has a dynamic black system again. (that includes most current LCDs as well thanks to their auto dim, which I feel is far worse than the ABL that plasma's have.)

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post #735 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Who knows where marketing departments get their numbers? Most seem made up.

Larry


Yea, they seriously are. I can't think of any way you could possibly achieve their so called "Native 40k:1" CR on these panels. They must drive 1 pixel and claim that as peak white or something--like 320fL.
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post #736 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 04:26 PM
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By "it" , I assume you mean floating blacks are gone in the G series ...

Wouldn't that be major factor deciding between the S and G series panny plasmas ??

Of course, I'm also assuming the S1 still have the problem.

Cheers, jls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

However, in the G10 line (and probably the entire NEO line) they have removed it. It is nowhere to be found on my 54g10 (either of the units I have had) I have used every mode but dynamic extensively and it just isn't there.

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post #737 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

By "it" , I assume you mean floating blacks are gone in the G series ...

Wouldn't that be major factor deciding between the S and G series panny plasmas ??

Of course, I'm also assuming the S1 still have the problem.

Cheers, jls.


If you are picky about video quality or if you are a film buff, you'll use the Cinema setting on the S1 where there is no floating black.

Larry
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post #738 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 05:09 PM
 
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I have had the g10 for months now, 46". When i shut the lights off and turn the tv on, with no input, i notice it looks like dark grey and like there is a back light. Is this normal with no input? Also, i turned on my Directv, watched HD also with lights turned off and i noticed my 4:3 bars are beween black and dark grey, like they are glowing. Is my set also having the black doubling problem?
Thanks in advance.
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post #739 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 08:05 PM
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A user once mentioned the following:

You can not get a Toyota to run like a Mercedes. If you want performance you need to pay for it.

I hope y'all understand where I'm going with this one... LOL!

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post #740 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 08:14 PM
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Whoever said that obviously doesn't know that a Lexus is a Toyota. I'll take my Toyota (Lexus) over a Mercedes any time.

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post #741 of 11209 Old 11-30-2009, 08:26 PM
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Panasonic sent a tech from a local electronics repair place to my house to look at the doubled black levels on my G10. As expected, he couldn't see any problem and wasn't carrying any instruments to measure black level. However, just as with the Panasonic tech I'd talked to on the phone, I was able to lead him to the solution I was hoping for -- a replacement A-board. That should cause a factory reset and hopefully the blacks will be back to their original level. Theoretically, the doubling could just happen again at some point, but maybe there'll be a firmware fix by then.
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post #742 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlivesay View Post

Panasonic sent a tech from a local electronics repair place to my house to look at the doubled black levels on my G10. As expected, he couldn't see any problem and wasn't carrying any instruments to measure black level. However, just as with the Panasonic tech I'd talked to on the phone, I was able to lead him to the solution I was hoping for -- a replacement A-board. That should cause a factory reset and hopefully the blacks will be back to their original level. Theoretically, the doubling could just happen again at some point, but maybe there'll be a firmware fix by then.

a-board wont fix your blacks, its something else we dont know yet and probably we we never find out
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post #743 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

a-board wont fix your blacks, its something else we dont know yet and probably we we never find out

Replacing the A board fixed my blacks, for a few hundred hours, then they went back up and it seems to be Panasonic's current answer to the problem. The local tech that has been checking my 54g10 has done this on several G10 units and confirmed that it does work. (he is a field service tech working for Panasonic direct)

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post #744 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 10:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris100 View Post

I have had the g10 for months now, 46". When i shut the lights off and turn the tv on, with no input, i notice it looks like dark grey and like there is a back light. Is this normal with no input? Also, i turned on my Directv, watched HD also with lights turned off and i noticed my 4:3 bars are beween black and dark grey, like they are glowing. Is my set also having the black doubling problem?
Thanks in advance.

anyone?
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post #745 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 11:00 AM
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Just picked up a 5 year Mack warranty after following this thread from early on for my 46G10. The warranty was so cheap, it made sense to alleviate any fears of this happening down the road. I usually don't buy extended warranties but this thread just cost me a hundred bucks........ Hopefully I will never need it.
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post #746 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Whoever said that obviously doesn't know that a Lexus is a Toyota. I'll take my Toyota (Lexus) over a Mercedes any time.

Larry

Lexus is garbage...they dont even distinguish themselves. They're generic at best

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post #747 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Replacing the A board fixed my blacks, for a few hundred hours, then they went back up and it seems to be Panasonic's current answer to the problem. The local tech that has been checking my 54g10 has done this on several G10 units and confirmed that it does work. (he is a field service tech working for Panasonic direct)

then we are experiencing something weird here, it doesn't make sense .... my a-board was replaced with a brand new one the tech opened in front of me, and my blacks were the same right after he powered the tv back on. Some other people had their panel replaced and their blacks were back to normal. I dont think some of us here are experiencing the same issue.
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post #748 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memphis87 View Post

Lexus is garbage...they dont even distinguish themselves. They're generic at best

My comment was tongue-in-cheek. It's amazing how involved in a love/hate relationship people can become with inanimate objects like autos and tvs.

Larry
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post #749 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris100 View Post

I have had the g10 for months now, 46". When i shut the lights off and turn the tv on, with no input, i notice it looks like dark grey and like there is a back light. Is this normal with no input? Also, i turned on my Directv, watched HD also with lights turned off and i noticed my 4:3 bars are beween black and dark grey, like they are glowing. Is my set also having the black doubling problem?
Thanks in advance.

Chris - not knowing your settings it is very hard to come to a definitive conclusion.

A have a V10, same basic unit.

When set is powered on the screen starts out light gray, then turns to a darker gray until it receives input.

If I change from an input with an active source to an input with an inactive or no source (no input), the screen from the inactive input looks gray.

With an active input like HDMI-1 (DVR) or HDMI-2 (Blu-Ray), when I bring up the program guide from my DVR which is in 4:3, the side bars are dark black. Not quite as black as the TV surround, but very, very deep black. With all lights out, you can definitely see some glow or luminance from the dark black. Does not change the color.

I am using custom mode for normal TV with CO1's 40ftl settings. If memory serves me correctly, this has the contrast in the high 70's, low 80's and brightness around 60.

When watching Blu-Ray, I use THX mode with contrast reduced marginally from the default 100% and brightness boosted marginally, don't remember the setting. In THX, the black bars on the side of a 4:3 movie, like old black and white movies is as black as the surround and there is so little glow, it can be seen only from a very close distance.

I think I am in the fortunate majority who do not have any black problems (my set now has about 1300 hours of use). Depending on your settings, your set is probably okay. I certainly hope so, anyway.

David Freeman
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post #750 of 11209 Old 12-01-2009, 03:11 PM
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My comment was tongue-in-cheek. It's amazing how involved in a love/hate relationship people can become with inanimate objects like autos and tvs.

Larry

Try reading a video game themed forum. It's 10 trilion times worse.
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