Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 250 - AVS Forum
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post #7471 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

I apologize, if this has already been covered, but I wonder how the Black levels of the 11/12g models compare to the older pannys after the rise. Equivalent, better, worse or it just all together depends on each individuals PDP.


This guy, who is a professional, reports that they are worse than the previous generation. They start out better, but end up worse after just 3,000 hours are put on them.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post18337133

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post18338871
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post #7472 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Not a good idea, since the lighter black levels have been accompanied by increased image retention.
I calibrated a G10 on Saturday, and just from using test patterns, and I was very careful not to leave any one pattern up for any length of time, there was very noticeble IR.

Fortunately, after viewing normal material for a short while, it dissipated, but I could only imagine the damage that could be created by watching espn for an hour set to torch mode.

All these displays should be handled with care. IMO, image burn is a far greater problem than lighter black llevels

Thanks for the reply.

Has a logical connection between higher black levels and higher image retention been found? Or is the explanation just that image retention is easier to see on a grey background? I mean, cells glow more with higher sustain voltage and thus also IR would stand out more (if at all). Then again, if black levels wouldn't rise too much there wouldn't be so much (noticeable) IR either.

My previous post's point was really to try to explain the issue. Panasonic must have had decent reasoning for the voltage rises and also there has to be 2006-2010 plasma panels that have not suffered heavy black level rise. How would they have passed design testing being grey...

Anyway, it would be interesting to see if there is any relation between black level rise and picture settings (higher luminosity vs. lower luminosity).
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post #7473 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mi16 View Post

Thanks for the reply.

Has a logical connection between higher black levels and higher image retention been found? Or is the explanation just that image retention is easier to see on a grey background? I mean, cells glow more with higher sustain voltage and thus also IR would stand out more (if at all). Then again, if black levels wouldn't rise too much there wouldn't be so much (noticeable) IR either.

I wish I could explain the corrolation, but unfortunately, I'm not an Engineer, and don't really have the answer. But the image retention is very real.
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Originally Posted by mi16 View Post

My previous post's point was really to try to explain the issue. Panasonic must have had decent reasoning for the voltage rises and also there has to be 2006-2010 plasma panels that have not suffered heavy black level rise. How would they have passed design testing being grey...

Anyway, it would be interesting to see if there is any relation between black level rise and picture settings (higher luminosity vs. lower luminosity).

if your question is "is the black level rise % greater in those displays that are not properly calibrated, or have artifically high settings, than properly calibrated displays? I don't think anyone knows. But one thing is certain, it blacks will get lighter than when the display came out of the box, as Panasonic has already confirmed that it is programmed to do that.

If your question is, can the lighter blacks (MLL) be calibrated out...the answer is no.

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post #7474 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 11:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

This guy, who is a professional, reports that they are worse than the previous generation. They start out better, but end up worse after just 3,000 hours are put on them.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post18337133

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post18338871

Well I have a 50px80a with 3300 hours on it and my black level is 0.14cdm2/0.043ftL and it looks absolutely crap on dark scenes. Was definitely not like that when new.

Whereas LarryInRI's says his 50px80(u) is still at 0.05cdm2/0.016ftL with same amount of hours.

Make of that what you will.
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post #7475 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

Well I have a 50px80a with 3300 hours on it and my black level is 0.14cdm2/0.043ftL and it looks absolutely crap on dark scenes. Was definitely not like that when new.

Whereas LarryInRI's says his 50px80(u) is still at 0.05cdm2/0.016ftL with same amount of hours.

Make of that what you will.

Sonic,
Most likely your viewing settings are different than that of Larry's, and if one display is calibrated with higher brightness and/or contrast settings, perhaps this the calibration variable I think mi16 might have been referring to in his post. It would be interesting to compare Larry and your settings.

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post #7476 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Sonic,
Most likely your viewing settings are different than that of Larry's, and if one display is calibrated with higher brightness and/or contrast settings, perhaps this the calibration variable I think mi16 might have been referring to in his post. It would be interesting to compare Larry and your settings.

I have calibrated the tv with an i1d2, picture mode Cinema, picture level is 32ftL and brightness has been set precisely using the AVSHD709 pattern. My brightness is definitely not set too high.
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post #7477 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

I have calibrated the tv with an i1d2, picture mode Cinema, picture level is 32ftL and brightness has been set precisely using the AVSHD709 pattern. My brightness is definitely not set too high.

I'm sorry if you took my comment in an accusational tone, for it was not meant to be. Noone said either was too high, but perhaps set differently.

Brightness and contrast settings should be set to environment, and viewing habits. Perhaps one of you watch your display in a totally dark environment, and the other in a brighter environment, necessitating different settings.

I was just wondering if the settings had corrolation to the rise %.
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post #7478 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

I wish I could explain the corrolation, but unfortunately, I'm not an Engineer, and don't really have the answer. But the image retention is very real.

if your question is "is the black level rise % greater in those displays that are not properly calibrated, or have artifically high settings, than properly calibrated displays? I don't think anyone knows. But one thing is certain, it blacks will get lighter than when the display came out of the box, as Panasonic has already confirmed that it is programmed to do that.

If your question is, can the lighter blacks (MLL) be calibrated out...the answer is no.

Actually my question was kind of neither. I tried to ask (or wonder) whether the black level rise could be greater on those displays that are properly calibrated (and lower on those with artificially high settings), based on discussion I posted yesterday.
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post #7479 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

I'm sorry if you took my comment in an accusational tone, for it was not meant to be.

It's cool, no accusational tone taken

My black level does look like crap though and was not that light when new.
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post #7480 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:24 PM
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So no one else thought that bombarding youtube with videos would be a good idea to generate decent coverage of the issue? Not even enough to respond to my post?

Well, good luck sitting here whining, posting your little readings amongst yourselves. Panasonic knows that this community represents a grain of sand in its consumer base and couldn't care less. If you're not going to do anything about it, then you might as well suck it up and stop crying because it'll do no good in solving your problems. I see no one here proposing a way to spread the issue other than more bellyaching.
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post #7481 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:36 PM
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The bigger question would be though is what are YOU doing about it?
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post #7482 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:42 PM
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The bigger question would be though is what are YOU doing about it?

I'm a new G10 owner and I've yet to have a problem.

But if or when I do, I WILL do something about it. And I hope that people here also have the balls to step up and take it to the next level instead of keeping their complaints localized. It's time to take it to the next level instead of going through the same old motions for months on end.

Don't underestimate the power of youtube. It makes this place look like an amoeba lost in the Atlantic. Spreading the word to a larger audience is the only way to get something done.
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post #7483 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

Sonic,
Most likely your viewing settings are different than that of Larry's, and if one display is calibrated with higher brightness and/or contrast settings, perhaps this the calibration variable I think mi16 might have been referring to in his post. It would be interesting to compare Larry and your settings.

It was my understanding that properly measured MLL should not vary in different viewing environments. That is, MLL should always be measured in the dark to be accurate. That said, it is evident that the visibility of the black level rise on program material may vary with the program and the viewing environment. N'est-ce pas?

Wes Sokolosky
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post #7484 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mikey24 View Post

I'm a new G10 owner and I've yet to have a problem.

But if or when I do, I WILL do something about it. And I hope that people here also have the balls to step up and take it to the next level instead of keeping their complaints localized. It's time to take it to the next level instead of going through the same old motions for months on end.

Don't underestimate the power of youtube. It makes this place look like an amoeba lost in the Atlantic. Spreading the word to a larger audience is the only way to get something done.


This forum got CNET to reduce the scores on Panasonic's 2009 models, after getting Panasonic to admit rising blacks exist (although they claim the picture quality remains 'excellent').

But yeah, go post a video on youtube, i'm sure it'll force panasonic to its knees.
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post #7485 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by wsokolosky View Post

It was my understanding that properly measured MLL should not vary in different viewing environments. That is, MLL should always be measured in the dark to be accurate. That said, it is evident that the visibility of the black level rise on program material may vary with the program and the viewing environment. N'est-ce pas?

Wes Sokolosky

Panasonic stated that they programmed the rise to offset aging. If you have your display set to torch mode, it should age quicker than if you have your display calibrated to a darkened home theater environment. So my curiosity is that is there a difference in rise of MLL between one calibrated to a darkened theater environment opposed to one set higher, due to faster aging of the brighter set panel.

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post #7486 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mikey24 View Post

I'm a new G10 owner and I've yet to have a problem.

I was making that reply in a jovial mood; kind of tongue & cheek... I'm actually in the exact same position as you. So far my G10 seems fine to me, however I am new with flat panels... maybe the tv is getting less black but I can't tell, lol.. Maybe ignorance is bliss for me !!
I want to move my G10 up to the bedroom, and purchase a 50 inch G-20. Sure wish I had a better income though...
Oh well; it's on my "wish list" for now...
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post #7487 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 02:52 PM
 
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If anybody is interested, I gave Panasonic a call yesterday obviously concerning the black levels. (I had also called the day before but couldn't get through.)Anyway, I spoke with this gal who was so confused that she thought I had the 54v10, I said no ma'am i have the 46S1. My point here is Panasonic don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. I was amazed that she actually admitted of hearing about the Black level issue, I continued on my letting her know that bad reviews are spreading everywhere on the net from cnet, to Bestbuy, Amazon, etc. She asked me did I want a tech sent out and I simply said no, it is an engineering flaw, and even a new set would not fix my problem. I told her the million dollar question I want to know is when Panasonic will get a grasp on what is currently taking place. Supposely this will be passed on to upper-management or a so-called engineer. Panny is supposed to call me back in 3 days which I doubt will ever happen.

Anyway, I was bored at work and said what the hell I'm gonna give them a call. So don't take this post with any weight
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post #7488 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 02:56 PM
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When D-Nice says Panasonic needs to change their algorithm to fix the problem, how would they go about doing it? Would they have to recall all the sets or would they only need to firmware update?
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post #7489 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

When D-Nice says Panasonic needs to change their algorithm to fix the problem, how would they go about doing it? Would they have to recall all the sets or would they only need to firmware update?

I think he is referig to their attitude toward the engineering of their PDP
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post #7490 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post
Well I have a 50px80a with 3300 hours on it and my black level is 0.14cdm2/0.043ftL and it looks absolutely crap on dark scenes. Was definitely not like that when new.

Whereas LarryInRI's says his 50px80(u) is still at 0.05cdm2/0.016ftL with same amount of hours.

Make of that what you will.

Here is my 50px80U just before I gave it away almost exactly a year ago. Sorry but I can't find the user menu settings for it but as you can see from the data, the max light output was about 25 ftL (85 cd/m^2) -- just where I like it. If you still have your equipment, you should be able to reproduce my user settings.

Larry

 

50px80 last run.zip 1.09375k . file
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post #7491 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:12 PM
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Do you recall how much they were priced at?

42" was $1599

46" was $1799

50" was $1999


Same prices we had to pay last year when they had come out. Give it 2 months and they'll be down..... hopefully

Loving the Blu-Revolution
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post #7492 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Panaman88 View Post

I think he is referig to their attitude toward the engineering of their PDP

No, 'algorithm' being the system that governs the adjustments the TV makes and when. Basically, the software.

D-Nice has said that there will be no firmware that an end user can deploy themselves. I took that statement to mean that there is a possibility for a tech to come out and deploy an upgrade, or for the display to return to base (if ever a fix was to be offered).

With my limited understanding of the problem, it is still apparent to me that there is no way in hell that Panasonic can roll out a global one-shot-fix firmware that patches every TV. We've all got different models in differing states of decay and there would need to be individual attention given or the results could be quite ugly.

If Panasonic want to issue individual fixes to us 'squeaky wheels' without worrying about the general user-base (who couldn't care less/don't know), then I'm more than happy for that to transpire.

However I'm not holding out much hope on that.
I'm waiting for some talented individual with all the right skillsets and desire, to sit down and basically hack it. If Panasonic won't devote resources to correcting their mess, then perhaps someone else can/will.

Necessity is the mother of invention and I just hope that momma is pregnant.
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post #7493 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:32 PM
 
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I'm afraid they could never issue fixes for us because if they got caught that would contradict their original statement. Word would spread like wild fire and they'd be in even more trouble.
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post #7494 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

I'm waiting for some talented individual with all the right skillsets and desire, to sit down and basically hack it. If Panasonic won't devote resources to correcting their mess, then perhaps someone else can/will.

Admittedly, I am hoping for this possibility, too. And I would quite honestly pay someone for their time and ingenuity to do this. Perhaps this will increase their "desire" to devote time to this.

If 100 of us paid someone $50 for a replacement firmware, that person could become $5,000 richer for their time and ingenuity. (And I would imagine MANY more than 100 people would be willing to pay for this.)

So, if anyone out there is capable of programming this problem out of our TVs, sign me up for the $50 Inky Black Restoration Hack.
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post #7495 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:52 PM
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I'm afraid they could never issue fixes for us because if they got caught that would contradict their original statement. Word would spread like wild fire and they'd be in even more trouble.

I disagree. The onus is on the customer to seek remedy.
There are a countless number of cloudy LCD panels out there that belong to very happy end-users.

Its not Panasonics job to say "Hey, that TV we sold you that you think looks fantastic is faulty, so we're going to fix it for you".

However, companies make statements all the time that they have to retract.
Microsoft made plenty of 'everything is normal' statements before they issued a three year warranty for the Xbox 360 and its famous shortcoming. If the chorus of discontent grows significantly, then existing policies and previous statements quickly get swept under the rug.

It may never reach that point, but make no mistake, Panasonic are still filling the market everyday with more people like us.
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post #7496 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 03:57 PM
 
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I hope your right, I really hope your right. Good Points. BTW.
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post #7497 of 11238 Old 03-29-2010, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

No, 'algorithm' being the system that governs the adjustments the TV makes and when. Basically, the software.

D-Nice has said that there will be no firmware that an end user can deploy themselves. I took that statement to mean that there is a possibility for a tech to come out and deploy an upgrade, or for the display to return to base (if ever a fix was to be offered).

With my limited understanding of the problem, it is still apparent to me that there is no way in hell that Panasonic can roll out a global one-shot-fix firmware that patches every TV. We've all got different models in differing states of decay and there would need to be individual attention given or the results could be quite ugly.

If Panasonic want to issue individual fixes to us 'squeaky wheels' without worrying about the general user-base (who couldn't care less/don't know), then I'm more than happy for that to transpire.

However I'm not holding out much hope on that.
I'm waiting for some talented individual with all the right skillsets and desire, to sit down and basically hack it. If Panasonic won't devote resources to correcting their mess, then perhaps someone else can/will.

Necessity is the mother of invention and I just hope that momma is pregnant.

Why couldn't they send out a test of some sort via vieracast, or an SD card, the TV runs the test, we record the information on the screen, and then send it back? Include our model #'s and serial #s? It doesn't seem that impossible to me, they just don't give a f$$$.
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post #7498 of 11238 Old 03-30-2010, 05:28 AM
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Why couldn't they send out a test of some sort via vieracast, or an SD card, the TV runs the test, we record the information on the screen, and then send it back? Include our model #'s and serial #s? It doesn't seem that impossible to me, they just don't give a f$$$.

I am afraid problem there is a little different. Even if device (like tv in our case) is controled via firmvare that we can upgrade, some code or algorythms are hard programed in to few EEPROMS that are soldered (or socketed) on different bords and they wount change during FW upgrade. Possibly pana has designed some counters-timers on those EEPROMS. The only way to change contents of them is to unsolder them and put on programator for reprograming, soldering back afterwards. May be this is the reason why fix is so difficult.
I can be wrong , but this is the way how some machinery is made, where I used to work.
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post #7499 of 11238 Old 03-30-2010, 05:55 AM
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I am afraid problem there is a little different. Even if device (like tv in our case) is controled via firmvare that we can upgrade, some code or algorythms are hard programed in to few EEPROMS that are soldered (or socketed) on different bords and they wount change during FW upgrade. Possibly pana has designed some counters-timers on those EEPROMS. The only way to change contents of them is to unsolder them and put on programator for reprograming, soldering back afterwards. May be this is the reason why fix is so difficult.
I can be wrong , but this is the way how some machinery is made, where I used to work.
Sorry for poor English

chips are on boards, boards can be replaced. that's how it has worked everywhere i have worked in electronics.
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post #7500 of 11238 Old 03-30-2010, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

chips are on boards, boards can be replaced. that's how it has worked everywhere i have worked in electronics.

Thats what I say. FW upgrade will not work.
But do we expect pany to exchange 2 or 3 or all boards ? That would cost ...

There should be my signature
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