Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 257 - AVS Forum
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post #7681 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by djryval View Post

It looks like the entire picture has gotten blurry/cloudy.


He obviously moved a hair and it got blurry. Clarity is not what were looking at there. In case you forgot its the black level.

And that is clearly represented in the image.

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post #7682 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

And that is clearly represented in the image.

No, it isn't.
If you check the EXIF data you'll see that the first shot has an exposure time of 1/8 of a second. The second shot has a full second exposure. In other words, its not worth the space its taking up on the page here.

No offense thebigdaddye but this is a mess on more than one level.
You can still salvage something if you go back and take a second shot a 1/8 and then maybe resize and fix the post.
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post #7683 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

No, it isn't.
If you check the EXIF data you'll see that the first shot has an exposure time of 1/8 of a second. The second shot has a full second exposure. In other words, its not worth the space its taking up on the page here.

No offense thebigdaddye but this is a mess on more than one level.
You can still salvage something if you go back and take a second shot a 1/8 and then maybe resize and fix the post.


No offense but exposure doesnt matter at all so long as the image is representing the issue. As someone that has the issue I assure you. It does.

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post #7684 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

No offense but exposure doesnt matter at all so long as the image is representing the issue. As someone that has the issue I assure you. It does.

This is a doozy. If we're pretending to actually have a rational, somewhat scientific discussion, it does matter. I hope you're not an engineer or scientist in your professional life. This is the same justification that 48 Hours (or whoever) used for rigging the car crash test to ensure a gas tank explosion. Or Consumer Reports when they were intentionally flipping Isuzus. Or countless studies where the investigators "knew" what the answers "should" be and rigged the test or scrubbed the results to "prove" it.

I have no reason to doubt that you and bigdaddy are experience this problem and describing it accurately - but when something is being presented as evidence it should hold up to a little scrutiny. If the problem is that obvious that shouldn't be too difficult.

jeff
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post #7685 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

No offense but exposure doesnt matter at all so long as the image is representing the issue. As someone that has the issue I assure you. It does.

You've got to be kidding me. If mll has risen, then carefully taken photos using IDENTICAL optimum settings and conditions will show the rise without any need for embellishment.

By your logic we should just turn this into the 'Artists impression of what my Plasma looks like' thread.
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post #7686 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:03 AM
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I agree as you have to be scientific about this. You have to keep the camera setting the same as so with the lighting in the enviroment. Too many if's, and's or buts comes into play here. You have to have a constant, a base
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post #7687 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:22 AM
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Im sorry but it has already been shown that the pictures taken scientifically do not rerpresent in anyway what we are seeing in the home.

Not for the purposes of science but for the purpose of showing to those that dont understand or believe. These pictures represent almost identically what we see.

Those pictures show that you cannot mistke your tv for having it or not.


In this sense while not scientific they are the most accurate representation your going to get of the problem.

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post #7688 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

No offense but exposure doesnt matter at all so long as the image is representing the issue. As someone that has the issue I assure you. It does.

More exposure makes the picture lighter.

You can clearly see in his second pic that the windows and bar at the bottom are much brighter than the first pic, almost blinding, so of course the blacks will look lighter as well.

I'm not saying there's no issue, but those pics aren't accurate.
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post #7689 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:36 AM
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serialmike, I see you're entrenched in your reasoning

I'm done with that

Have a Great Weekend
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post #7690 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:37 AM
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After skimming over this thread, I've heard various claims of when the black level rise takes place. Most conclude that it's at 1000 hours? Did you check your hours as soon as you noticed it? And do many people claim to see no change after 1000 hours?
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post #7691 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

Im sorry but it has already been shown that the pictures taken scientifically do not rerpresent in anyway what we are seeing in the home.

Not for the purposes of science but for the purpose of showing to those that dont understand or believe. These pictures represent almost identically what we see.

Those pictures show that you cannot mistke your tv for having it or not.


In this sense while not scientific they are the most accurate representation your going to get of the problem.

Maybe you could include a picture of what you see and a picture with same camera settings.
Then everyone is satisfied.
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post #7692 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by erahk64 View Post

Maybe you could include a picture of what you see and a picture with same camera settings.
Then everyone is satisfied.

Im gonna try again tonight....My camera is not high end. But I was tinkering with manual mode. I dont have anything from pre rise to compare that was shot in manual mode.

All I can post is what it is now. I will post if I can get it to show. The problem is that as you can see by all the photos off the set new is the black is as black as the bezel. Those were not just like the kuro i might add fair representation of the set brand new as the screens were lighter than the bezel.

I shall see what I can do.

I shall also try to get something with my 52v5100 sony lcd to show jsut how sad it is


I will set for no flash accurate white balance no shutter speed tricks (i dont even think mine has a shutter speed control) tryin get an "as it is" pic.

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post #7693 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:47 AM
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Okay, I'll use the "no offense but" intro as well to say...

This latest exchange on whether or not these pictures represent anything at all useful (they don't) or accurate (nope) or scientific (please!) is endemic of the problem that has developed with a vast majority of this thread.

It has gone completely Chicken Little, with a little Don Quixote thrown in, and now Boy Who Cried Wolf (and got caught with the ketchup bottle he was using for his bloody proof.)

Drama queen justifications for a drama queen representation of what is clearly a real problem, but has gotten lost in all the hysterical noise. And this pic? Not even a good try.

I haven't given up hope that panasonic might fix this issue, or that perhaps time will as some small bit of data and the companies' own cryptic statements suggest it might - stranger things have indeed happened. Perhaps I'm just overly optimistic. Oh well. Some of you doom and gloomers should try it some day.

But so long as there are people making it their mission to throw ever more specious claims, wild theories, and now actually making up "proof" of their problems, there is fat chance of that. Panasonic will stay in protective mode, as they are wont to due anyway, under such an irrational attack. Why wouldn't they?

The other companies mentioned a bit earlier as beacons of corporate morality (Apple, XBox) didn't do their fixes any differently, and they certainly didn't do them because they are better entities. It wasn't the shrill "sky is falling" consumers that made the difference, either, as much as they want to think so. It was the rational, reasonable folks who insisted and proved that there was a problem - a real problem, not a supposed or exaggerated problem - who got satisfaction first, and eventually got a workable fix for others, too.

You'd think self-professed "Audio Visual Scientists" would know this.

Sheesh.
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post #7694 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

No, it isn't.
If you check the EXIF data you'll see that the first shot has an exposure time of 1/8 of a second. The second shot has a full second exposure. In other words, its not worth the space its taking up on the page here.

No offense thebigdaddye but this is a mess on more than one level.
You can still salvage something if you go back and take a second shot a 1/8 and then maybe resize and fix the post.

none taken, i thought i had the setting both the same as i did last year when i took the first one. still both those pics give as close to what my eyes see on the screen and what has happened to my display in just a year. you can say it's not scientific ect.. all you want but the fact is my tv has changed it's black level and for the worse. if you lived close to me i would have no problem showing you in person. i do have a problem with you saying it's not worth the space on here says who YOU? do you own any of these plasmas with this problem? did you purchase a plasma with great black level only to see them turn to nearly grey? if your tv had this problem you would be poed. i will take another picture tonight with 1/8 when it's dark and i bet it will look pretty much the same as the one i have already posted. both of those pics show pretty much what my eyes had seen and do see now if anything the first one looked better last year in person and the second one from last night looks worse in person.
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post #7695 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 07:53 AM
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I wonder if the law suit will have anything to do with whether or not Panasonic fixes the problem?
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post #7696 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

Okay, I'll use the "no offense but" intro as well to say...

This latest exchange on whether or not these pictures represent anything at all useful (they don't) or accurate (nope) or scientific (please!) is endemic of the problem that has developed with a vast majority of this thread.

It has gone completely Chicken Little, with a little Don Quixote thrown in, and now Boy Who Cried Wolf (and got caught with the ketchup bottle he was using for his bloody proof.)

Drama queen justifications for a drama queen representation of what is clearly a real problem, but has gotten lost in all the hysterical noise. And this pic? Not even a good try.

I haven't given up hope that panasonic might fix this issue, or that perhaps time will as some small bit of data and the companies' own cryptic statements suggest it might - stranger things have indeed happened. Perhaps I'm just overly optimistic. Oh well. Some of you doom and gloomers should try it some day.

But so long as there are people making it their mission to throw ever more specious claims, wild theories, and now actually making up "proof" of their problems, there is fat chance of that. Panasonic will stay in protective mode, as they are wont to due anyway, under such an irrational attack. Why wouldn't they?

The other companies mentioned a bit earlier as beacons of corporate morality (Apple, XBox) didn't do their fixes any differently, and they certainly didn't do them because they are better entities. It wasn't the shrill "sky is falling" consumers that made the difference, either, as much as they want to think so. It was the rational, reasonable folks who insisted and proved that there was a problem - a real problem, not a supposed or exaggerated problem - who got satisfaction first, and eventually got a workable fix for others, too.

You'd think self-professed "Audio Visual Scientists" would know this.

Sheesh.

ok then drive over to ohio and i will show you in person just how terrible my plasma looks with any dark scenes. i'm not saying the sky is falling ,but if i buy product A. because they say they have a better black level then product B. and they do at the time of purchase only to turn lighter/more grey in less then a year then it's a problem for me and anyone who purchased product A. over product B. because this would no longer be true. now if they stated that the plasma black levels will rise within a year or two then i would have no problem because i WOULD have known BUT i or anybody else knew. how many people do you think would have purchased these plasmas if they knew the black level rise would happen? i would say probably half if that. i know one thing i would have kept my sony 34 inch crt hdtv thats for sure.
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post #7697 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mikey24 View Post

I wonder if the law suit will have anything to do with whether or not Panasonic fixes the problem?

I'm guessing it will make them not fix it if anything to avoid admission of guilt. The lawsuit is unfortunate IMHO as it's likely to stall any eventual potential fix not to mention no one will see any amount of money that matters anyways.
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post #7698 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Camster View Post

I'm guessing it will make them not fix it if anything to avoid admission of guilt. The lawsuit is unfortunate IMHO as it's likely to stall any eventual potential fix not to mention no one will see any amount of money that matters anyways.


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post #7699 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 08:22 AM
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the way I see it, since there's a lawsuit the potential money/time spent on a fix will now be used to pay/defend the trial and if there's a payout to owners with affected units.

We both lose at the end of this
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post #7700 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigdaddye View Post

ok then drive over to ohio and i will show you in person just how terrible my plasma looks with any dark scenes. i'm not saying the sky is falling ,but if i buy product A. because they say they have a better black level then product B. and they do at the time of purchase only to turn lighter/more grey in less then a year then it's a problem for me and anyone who purchased product A. over product B. because this would no longer be true. now if they stated that the plasma black levels will rise within a year or two then i would have no problem because i WOULD have known BUT i or anybody else knew. how many people do you think would have purchased these plasmas if they knew the black level rise would happen? i would say probably half if that. i know one thing i would have kept my sony 34 inch crt hdtv thats for sure.

I'm not interested in a flame war, sorry if you took it that way. You should reread my post. Your defense, here, though, is precisely my point. Saying, "okay, maybe I exaggerated my proof, but I really do have a problem" is not a compelling or credible way to make an argument. You undermine yourself when you do so.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and I certainly don't have to drive to Ohio to see yours; I have a 58S1 that has clearly risen blacks. I've researched it, and I'm satisfied that if there is a fix to be had, I'll eventually get it. I'm resigned to the fact that there probably isn't, in part because all this blown-out-of-proportion crap around the issue has puckered panasonic's corporate behind.

What I was trying to suggest is that we all use real data and facts, and not wildly inflated (or patently false) claims or manipulated evidence to support the call for a fix. That's all.

If you go into a support or warranty call with the statement, "well, that picture I sent you was kinda bs, but I really do have a problem, just come and see," you will be dismissed. Every time. And rightly so.

You've just given them all the reason in the world to deny any claim you may have otherwise had to satisfaction. Your demand for fair treatment is predicated on the notion that you will give it in return. If you don't, you takes your chances, and you get what you get. Usually disappointment.
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post #7701 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 08:32 AM
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This thread has really "gone fishing" lately

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post #7702 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 08:47 AM
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As if I wasn't already pissed0f with my G10 black problem ... today I got this "present" :


















What do you guys think ? Dying plasma ? It's a case for a return isn't it ??

One question ... the G20 also sufers from the black level problem?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

Okay, I'll use the "no offense but" intro as well to say...

This latest exchange on whether or not these pictures represent anything at all useful (they don't) or accurate (nope) or scientific (please!) is endemic of the problem that has developed with a vast majority of this thread.

It has gone completely Chicken Little, with a little Don Quixote thrown in, and now Boy Who Cried Wolf (and got caught with the ketchup bottle he was using for his bloody proof.)

Drama queen justifications for a drama queen representation of what is clearly a real problem, but has gotten lost in all the hysterical noise. And this pic? Not even a good try.

I haven't given up hope that panasonic might fix this issue, or that perhaps time will as some small bit of data and the companies' own cryptic statements suggest it might - stranger things have indeed happened. Perhaps I'm just overly optimistic. Oh well. Some of you doom and gloomers should try it some day.

But so long as there are people making it their mission to throw ever more specious claims, wild theories, and now actually making up "proof" of their problems, there is fat chance of that. Panasonic will stay in protective mode, as they are wont to due anyway, under such an irrational attack. Why wouldn't they?

The other companies mentioned a bit earlier as beacons of corporate morality (Apple, XBox) didn't do their fixes any differently, and they certainly didn't do them because they are better entities. It wasn't the shrill "sky is falling" consumers that made the difference, either, as much as they want to think so. It was the rational, reasonable folks who insisted and proved that there was a problem - a real problem, not a supposed or exaggerated problem - who got satisfaction first, and eventually got a workable fix for others, too.

You'd think self-professed "Audio Visual Scientists" would know this.

Sheesh.

Seriously, I totally agree. These people are ridiculous. At the end of the day, it's just a TV. Get a life.
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post #7704 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedcaum View Post

I'm not interested in a flame war, sorry if you took it that way. You should reread my post. Your defense, here, though, is precisely my point. Saying, "okay, maybe I exaggerated my proof, but I really do have a problem" is not a compelling or credible way to make an argument. You undermine yourself when you do so.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and I certainly don't have to drive to Ohio to see yours; I have a 58S1 that has clearly risen blacks. I've researched it, and I'm satisfied that if there is a fix to be had, I'll eventually get it. I'm resigned to the fact that there probably isn't, in part because all this blown-out-of-proportion crap around the issue has puckered panasonic's corporate behind.

What I was trying to suggest is that we all use real data and facts, and not wildly inflated (or patently false) claims or manipulated evidence to support the call for a fix. That's all.

If you go into a support or warranty call with the statement, "well, that picture I sent you was kinda bs, but I really do have a problem, just come and see," you will be dismissed. Every time. And rightly so.

You've just given them all the reason in the world to deny any claim you may have otherwise had to satisfaction. Your demand for fair treatment is predicated on the notion that you will give it in return. If you don't, you takes your chances, and you get what you get. Usually disappointment.

i haven't exaggerated my proof at all in fact my proof is clear and that is why i say to anyone who says i have blown it out of proportion ect.. come have a look i have nothing to hide manipulate ect.. my blacks use to be black and now they are not those are the facts. also the black level is only one of the problems i have had with my plasma but i'm not going to get into that because i probably just exaggerate those as well correct? LOL
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post #7705 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 09:26 AM
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We asked him to take pics and he did. He didn't profess to be the worlds greatest photographer. However, it is very apparent that there is a rise in his black levels. Cut the guy some slack.


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post #7706 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvidia View Post

As if I wasn't already pissed0f with my G10 black problem ... today I got this "present" :


















What do you guys think ? Dying plasma ? It's a case for a return isn't it ??

One question ... the G20 also sufers from the black level problem?

Looks like you may be getting a replacement.


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post #7707 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 10:07 AM
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Cnet update. 4/2/2010

"
Follow-up: Panasonic plasma black-level loss measured in long-term test

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...eed&subj=Crave


"
On January 26, after we heard about the potential problem, we began long-term tests of two 2009 Panasonic plasma review samples we had in our lab, a TC-P50V10 and a TC-P54S1. Now, after about 1,000 hours of use, each TV has shown an increase in the level of "black" it can produce, leading to decreased overall picture quality.
The latest measurements of the V10 reveal a black level of 0.016 Ftl at 982 hours of use, compared with the 0.008 we measured previously. Black on the S1 measures 0.017 after 1,012 hours, compared with a previous 0.011.
These results are similar to increases we measured on a TC-P50G10 and a TC-42G10. Neither was aged under controlled conditions in our lab, but both reproduced black at 0.023 ftl after about 1,500 hours (at the average rate of 5.2 hours per day, a TV logs about 1,900 hours in a typical year). We suspect that more aging of our two in-house models will result in similar rates of increase, but only further testing will tell."
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post #7708 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by silkypimp1974 View Post

Seriously, I totally agree. These people are ridiculous. At the end of the day, it's just a TV. Get a life.

well if you spent $1,000 on a tv or more like some have and it had a great picture and now it has a great picture except in dark scenes/blacks i think you would be poed as well. the majority purchased these tv's because of the black levels/picture quality and now they are not so black but more grey and that has affected the overall picture quality.
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post #7709 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by serialmike View Post

No offense but exposure doesnt matter at all so long as the image is representing the issue. As someone that has the issue I assure you. It does.

Bwahahaha. Exposure doesn't matter? What a joke.
Please stop that BS and exaggeration.

Here is thebigdaddye's second photo corrected (in Adobe Lightroom) for exposure from 1 sec to match as it were at 1/8 sec in the first photo.



Here is thebigdaddye's TV as of 4-3-2010:






And here is thebigdaddye's TV as of year ago 3-28-2009:





Even if there had been any black level raise - it is so minor that the camera didn't capture it.








LL
LL
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post #7710 of 11262 Old 04-03-2010, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

We asked him to take pics and he did. He didn't profess to be the worlds greatest photographer. However, it is very apparent that there is a rise in his black levels. Cut the guy some slack.

Ya'll are making the assumption that I'm talking only about this set of pictures. I'm not. No pictures prove anything in this instance, even when taken in mostly controlled circumstances. Pictures can lie, everyone knows that. I could make my panny look much more inky dark or much more glowy than real life if I wanted, easily, through manipulations of all sorts, both pre and post snap.

Since you want to talk about THIS picture - it doesn't take an expert photographer to know that (EXIF data) you are using 8x the shutter opening length on the second photo. The blur, the blown out lighter areas, and yes, probably the brightness would all suggest that. And the fact that it is that setting used for the latter picture that is even more suggestive, rightly or wrongly, that the fix is in, and that the image is meant to intentionally skew the result toward the hypothesis. In defense of this image, some have said, "hey, that's ok, because that's what reality should be anyway." This is just plain wrong by any objective measure.

But this particular picture isn't and hasn't been my point, only perhaps the catalyst for my latest screed in the way people are reacting. The ends (wanting your tv fixed/replaced) do not justify the means (making wild claims not substantiated or in some cases even presented by facts).

Black level rise exists. I'm convinced, mainly by the evidence of my own eyes on my set, certainly by the empirical data provided by some more level headed forum members using verifiable measuring methods.

My point is simply that devoting time and energy to the breathless, unfounded, easily debunked - or at least highly questionable, inherently suspect "evidence" that some think is compelling is actually undermining their, my, and everyone else's case in this instance.

These methods are not helpful, they further lessen the possibility that any real attention will be paid. Supporting, asking for, or for goodness' sake defending this "evidence" is even more destructive to our claims.

Tin-foil hat conspiracy nuts is what they will dismiss this whole forum as. Whether we have a legitimate gripe or not. That is my point.
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