Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 11194 Old 12-01-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdolen View Post

Just picked up a 5 year Mack warranty after following this thread from early on for my 46G10. The warranty was so cheap, it made sense to alleviate any fears of this happening down the road. I usually don't buy extended warranties but this thread just cost me a hundred bucks........ Hopefully I will never need it.

Are you sure the warranty company would really honor repairing or replacing a TV based on increase black levels? I would be surprised. Since there is no documented guarantee on the initial black level performance I doubt Mack will be obligated to restore your initial level and it will be hard as heck to adequately document anyway.
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post #752 of 11194 Old 12-01-2009, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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When some of you guys think you're seeing inflated black levels, you might want to double check. Get up really really close to the screen (few inches away) and confirm there's no activation/dithering/crawling noise on the blank input or black pattern (dancing red/green pixels on black). I've noticed on the S1, something my cable box is doing is causing the correct brightness setting to change really dramatically--presumably something it's doing shifting levels between SD and HD. This certainly gives the impression your blacks levels have exploded, but it just seems to be a glitch with video levels. You can calibrate it out completely, and it corrects when you turn the source on (at least for HD, it may still blow them out with SD). I think some reviews have actually complained about this. Kinda strange though, the G10 stays uniform across an SD Wii (Component), SD/HD Cable (straight Coax), and a variety of HDMI devices.

In any event, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the original problem, just an observation that could be the source of some false positives. I just noticed a lot of people are using blank inputs as metrics, paired with cable/sat boxes, and talking about how their levels normalize when there's content up. I suspect this is what some of you are seeing.
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post #753 of 11194 Old 12-02-2009, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

When some of you guys think you're seeing inflated black levels, you might want to double check. Get up really really close to the screen (few inches away) and confirm there's no activation/dithering/crawling noise on the blank input or black pattern (dancing red/green pixels on black). I've noticed on the S1, something my cable box is doing is causing the correct brightness setting to change really dramatically--presumably something it's doing shifting levels between SD and HD. This certainly gives the impression your blacks levels have exploded, but it just seems to be a glitch with video levels. You can calibrate it out completely, and it corrects when you turn the source on (at least for HD, it may still blow them out with SD). I think some reviews have actually complained about this. Kinda strange though, the G10 stays uniform across an SD Wii (Component), SD/HD Cable (straight Coax), and a variety of HDMI devices.

In any event, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the original problem, just an observation that could be the source of some false positives. I just noticed a lot of people are using blank inputs as metrics, paired with cable/sat boxes, and talking about how their levels normalize when there's content up. I suspect this is what some of you are seeing.

Hey Orta, have you done a calibration on your system's SD modes? I have not, the signal is so variable/bad from my cable box (moving back to satellite in about a month) but I have noticed that the blacks can be really bad in SD mode even though they seem to be fine (knock on wood) with HD signals.

BTW - a public thank you for taking the time way back when to give me the info and encouragment to get into doing my own calibrations.
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post #754 of 11194 Old 12-02-2009, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

When some of you guys think you're seeing inflated black levels, you might want to double check. Get up really really close to the screen (few inches away) and confirm there's no activation/dithering/crawling noise on the blank input or black pattern (dancing red/green pixels on black). I've noticed on the S1, something my cable box is doing is causing the correct brightness setting to change really dramatically--presumably something it's doing shifting levels between SD and HD. This certainly gives the impression your blacks levels have exploded, but it just seems to be a glitch with video levels. You can calibrate it out completely, and it corrects when you turn the source on (at least for HD, it may still blow them out with SD). I think some reviews have actually complained about this. Kinda strange though, the G10 stays uniform across an SD Wii (Component), SD/HD Cable (straight Coax), and a variety of HDMI devices.

In any event, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the original problem, just an observation that could be the source of some false positives. I just noticed a lot of people are using blank inputs as metrics, paired with cable/sat boxes, and talking about how their levels normalize when there's content up. I suspect this is what some of you are seeing.

In my case, I see the doubled black levels when I'm watching blu-rays. I'll be getting a new A-board soon, though it sounds like that doesn't always fix the problem.
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post #755 of 11194 Old 12-02-2009, 06:35 AM
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Just keeping it to the S1 review ... the one set I'm considering.

btw - I've been a happy panny owner for the last 4 years - and will only upgrade to a superior product as you can well imagine.

I can tell you right now that plasma technology has come a LONG way in 4 years. I've owned 4 plasmas since 2006 (sold old plasmas to friends and family in order to upgrade - yes, it's crazy, but hey) and each one has offered marked improvement over the last. Using a 9th gen Kuro now.

The older Panasonic panels have a VERY noisy image and display very poor shadow detail. These are issues that have been left behind by most manufacturers. Even if the black levels increased over time on the new Panasonic, I feel it would still look vastly superior to an older Panasonic.

It's definitely safe to upgrade. You'll see a huge improvement.
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post #756 of 11194 Old 12-02-2009, 10:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

Chris - not knowing your settings it is very hard to come to a definitive conclusion.

A have a V10, same basic unit.

When set is powered on the screen starts out light gray, then turns to a darker gray until it receives input.

If I change from an input with an active source to an input with an inactive or no source (no input), the screen from the inactive input looks gray.

With an active input like HDMI-1 (DVR) or HDMI-2 (Blu-Ray), when I bring up the program guide from my DVR which is in 4:3, the side bars are dark black. Not quite as black as the TV surround, but very, very deep black. With all lights out, you can definitely see some glow or luminance from the dark black. Does not change the color.

I am using custom mode for normal TV with CO1's 40ftl settings. If memory serves me correctly, this has the contrast in the high 70's, low 80's and brightness around 60.

When watching Blu-Ray, I use THX mode with contrast reduced marginally from the default 100% and brightness boosted marginally, don't remember the setting. In THX, the black bars on the side of a 4:3 movie, like old black and white movies is as black as the surround and there is so little glow, it can be seen only from a very close distance.

I think I am in the fortunate majority who do not have any black problems (my set now has about 1300 hours of use). Depending on your settings, your set is probably okay. I certainly hope so, anyway.

I use Standard mode. I got my settings from Serial Mike, he posted some good settings. My brightness is at 49. I keep my contrast at 65. I don't have BD yet, some people say that BD black levels are darker than satellite blacks. When i watch the picture itself on Directv HD, the blacks look blacker than my 4:3 bars. Hopefully everything is fine for now. I appreciate your kind help, thanks.
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post #757 of 11194 Old 12-02-2009, 02:23 PM
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Chris - I have not used the standard mode settings as I understand that there were some problems with gamma on standard. Don't remember right off if these were too high or too low.

From what I have read, Gamma is best on THX and next best on Custom.

I used Custom for everything for the first four months that I had the TV and was very happy.

Recently, my wife and I tried THX for the first time since the set was broken in, for watching Blu-Rays and DVDs. Since our movie watching is primarily in the evenings, the slightly less bright picture is not an issue. Plus, my set came with the 1.20 firmware that supposedly had the corrected THX settings. I never had an issue with the amber or antique look because of incorrect green drive with the THX settings. We have both started to notice what we consider a few improvements using THX instead of Custom. We are seeing what appear to be deeper blacks, more shadow detail and the colors appear very film like. Still not to be confused with colors in the real world. Also, when black sidebars do appear, they are darker than they were in Custom and the faint glow is either reduced or non-existent.

If you have over 200 hours on your set, try THX in a darkened room with a good DVD or Blu-Ray (not animated), and maybe let this help in judging any percieved increase in black level.

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post #758 of 11194 Old 12-02-2009, 03:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

Chris - I have not used the standard mode settings as I understand that there were some problems with gamma on standard. Don't remember right off if these were too high or too low.

From what I have read, Gamma is best on THX and next best on Custom.

I used Custom for everything for the first four months that I had the TV and was very happy.

Recently, my wife and I tried THX for the first time since the set was broken in, for watching Blu-Rays and DVDs. Since our movie watching is primarily in the evenings, the slightly less bright picture is not an issue. Plus, my set came with the 1.20 firmware that supposedly had the corrected THX settings. I never had an issue with the amber or antique look because of incorrect green drive with the THX settings. We have both started to notice what we consider a few improvements using THX instead of Custom. We are seeing what appear to be deeper blacks, more shadow detail and the colors appear very film like. Still not to be confused with colors in the real world. Also, when black sidebars do appear, they are darker than they were in Custom and the faint glow is either reduced or non-existent.

If you have over 200 hours on your set, try THX in a darkened room with a good DVD or Blu-Ray (not animated), and maybe let this help in judging any percieved increase in black level.

I have over 1000 hours on it. I don't have dvd either. I bought the set mainly for sports and movies from Directv HD. I have tried Custom, i like it too, but i like the picture on Standard. I tried THX, i don't like it. I like more 'pop' to me, THX is dull. When i buy a BD, hopefully soon, i will try it and then judge the black level. As on satellite, some channels look better than the other ones and one HD channel might have a better black level, than another one.
Thanks again.
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post #759 of 11194 Old 12-03-2009, 10:41 PM
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Just tried watching Beowulf on my G10 HDDVD in THX in a completely dark room at night. The dark scene when Grendel first attacks is unwatchable, now, everything is light gray like a cheap LCD, no contrast at all. It looked better when I jacked up the contrast in Custom mode but still, the blacks are definitely doubled.
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post #760 of 11194 Old 12-04-2009, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

Just tried watching Beowulf on my G10 HDDVD in THX in a completely dark room at night. The dark scene when Grendel first attacks is unwatchable, now, everything is light gray like a cheap LCD, no contrast at all. It looked better when I jacked up the contrast in Custom mode but still, the blacks are definitely doubled.

Could you take a picture of that scene and post it here? Along with your user menu settings? (Contrast, Brightness, etc.)
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post #761 of 11194 Old 12-04-2009, 08:25 AM
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I was all set on buying a P58S1 but it looks like I should pick up a Sammy PN58B650 instead? I've read about some Buzzing reports with that unit, but that doesn't concern me as much as the black levels going LCD on me. 4 months of this thread with a lot of theory and limited response from Panasonic isn't promising. My Dad just picked up the P50G10, will have to keep an eye out for this.
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post #762 of 11194 Old 12-04-2009, 12:45 PM
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FWIW - I have had my G10 since early September and my blacks have not doubled. I watch the display in a theater room with no windows and no ambient light so I would notice if my blacks had doubled.

P.S. I never entered the SM and did not do the break in slides.
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post #763 of 11194 Old 12-04-2009, 12:58 PM
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Thanks for the response. Based on that, and being able to watch my Dads for the problem, I should know enough to decide whether I want to take a chance on this or not.
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post #764 of 11194 Old 12-05-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_U View Post

FWIW - I have had my G10 since early September and my blacks have not doubled. I watch the display in a theater room with no windows and no ambient light so I would notice if my blacks had doubled.

P.S. I never entered the SM and did not do the break in slides.


.... im starting to think that maybe the 12g are more sensitive about the break in slides and the stress that is done with that procedure damage the set...

Ive done a break in on my first G10 and the black have doubled

Lets see if there is any tendency ..
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post #765 of 11194 Old 12-05-2009, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

.... im starting to think that maybe the 12g are more sensitive about the break in slides and the stress that is done with that procedure damage the set...

Ive done a break in on my first G10 and the black have doubled

Lets see if there is any tendency ..

Not on my sets. One had the break-in performed. The other not. Both changed the same.

Larry
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post #766 of 11194 Old 12-05-2009, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin_Per View Post

.... im starting to think that maybe the 12g are more sensitive about the break in slides and the stress that is done with that procedure damage the set...

Ive done a break in on my first G10 and the black have doubled

Lets see if there is any tendency ..

How do you know they have doubled? Just to get more info in this thread.
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post #767 of 11194 Old 12-05-2009, 08:14 PM
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Orta still checking in? Any estimate on when you will know whether you see the same results with the S1 or not?
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post #768 of 11194 Old 12-05-2009, 09:41 PM
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Still wondering if anyone else had the experience of their blacks getting lighter following a firmware update. Just trying to figure out if that was a coincidence or not.
For those who didn't catch my earlier post I had the problem with the yellowish-green THX mode and had heard that the 1.20 firmware update was a fix for that. Or that was the rumor anyway. I did the update (actually up to and including 1.25) and the yellow-green cast was gone, but there was something else wrong. I couldn't put my finger on it until I popped in the Godfather II blu-ray. Then, due to it being such a dark film in many scenes, it was completely obvious that the blacks were suddenly much, much lighter. I have watched this film several times on blu-ray and on this G10. I can't say that the blacks literally doubled because I don't have a meter, but they certainly APPEAR to be about half as dark as they were. I know, completely unscientific, but I didn't want to not report this just because I don't have hard data. It's enough of a problem that I don't want to watch my G10 until the replacement A-board comes in. I just got used to a great black level. Granted, I've never experienced a Pioneer Elite Kuro.
Of course some have said that A-board replacement didn't solve this problem for them, but I'll let you know my results or lack thereof. I wonder if the manufacture date of the A-board could make a difference. I made a request for as recent an A-board as possible, but I don't know if it's possible to pick and choose.
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post #769 of 11194 Old 12-05-2009, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hikarate View Post

Orta still checking in? Any estimate on when you will know whether you see the same results with the S1 or not?

Yea, I'm not breaking in the S1 though since I only use it for full screen television content. Only gets about 4 hours use a day, so it'll probably take a while to get up to 400 hours on it. I don't even think I have 100 on it yet.
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post #770 of 11194 Old 12-06-2009, 12:28 AM
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This darn thread freaked me out, so I picked up a Samsung 40B530 to see if I could get by w/ an LCD (I browse A LOT on my HTPC anyway).



I can't. Ugh...it's horrible.
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post #771 of 11194 Old 12-06-2009, 08:39 AM
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i am wondering if the 07 models have the same issues with blacks. Mine is a 08 october 720p . Looks like both 720 and 1080p are affected by this issue so i doubt its bad line of panels
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post #772 of 11194 Old 12-06-2009, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tlivesay View Post

In my case, I see the doubled black levels when I'm watching blu-rays. I'll be getting a new A-board soon, though it sounds like that doesn't always fix the problem.

If you only see the increased black levels when watching Blu-Rays and you're using a PS3, it's possible your levels are set wrong in your PS3. Change them from full to limited. Of course, if they're already set to limited, then it's something else. It might sound crippling, but limited is actually the correct setting for this TV.

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #773 of 11194 Old 12-06-2009, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

If you only see the increased black levels when watching Blu-Rays and you're using a PS3, it's possible your levels are set wrong in your PS3. Change them from full to limited. Of course, if they're already set to limited, then it's something else. It might sound crippling, but limited is actually the correct setting for this TV.

Actually, I meant that I only use the G10 to watch blu-rays. I don't have a
PS3.
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post #774 of 11194 Old 12-06-2009, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

i am wondering if the 07 models have the same issues with blacks. Mine is a 08 october 720p . Looks like both 720 and 1080p are affected by this issue so i doubt its bad line of panels

My px60u measured about 0.033 ftL
My px75u measured about 0.024 ftL
Both my px80us measured about 0.016 ftL
They did not seem to change over the year I had each of them.


Both my X1s started out at about 0.014 and now they both are at about 0.024 ftL

Larry
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post #775 of 11194 Old 12-07-2009, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

My px60u measured about 0.033 ftL
My px75u measured about 0.024 ftL
Both my px80us measured about 0.016 ftL
They did not seem to change over the year I had each of them.


Both my X1s started out at about 0.014 and now they both are at about 0.024 ftL

Larry

Ouch, I wouldn't say that my G10 looks as bad as my old 42px75, but it is pretty rough compared to what I had seen in the beginning. (my initial impressions called the blacks "Kuro Like" no way I can say that now.

I've got another call into the Panasonic tech (planning on returning my 54g10 becasue of the ABL being agressive in custom, and added picture noise in standard, I just can't get a nice and bright image without serious drawbacks, so I am going to return it and get either the 58s1 or a dirt cheap Sammy LCD (52b550) and wait for the next round of Panny Plasma sets (at which point a 65inch set will be my next buy) Maybe I should try for a 58pz850 as well....

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post #776 of 11194 Old 12-07-2009, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jodiuh View Post

This darn thread freaked me out, so I picked up a Samsung 40B530 to see if I could get by w/ an LCD (I browse A LOT on my HTPC anyway).



I can't. Ugh...it's horrible.

Send this to Panasonic. Anyway i am happy with G10.
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post #777 of 11194 Old 12-07-2009, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Ouch, I wouldn't say that my G10 looks as bad as my old 42px75, but it is pretty rough compared to what I had seen in the beginning. (my initial impressions called the blacks "Kuro Like" no way I can say that now.

I've got another call into the Panasonic tech (planning on returning my 54g10 becasue of the ABL being agressive in custom, and added picture noise in standard, I just can't get a nice and bright image without serious drawbacks, so I am going to return it and get either the 58s1 or a dirt cheap Sammy LCD (52b550) and wait for the next round of Panny Plasma sets (at which point a 65inch set will be my next buy) Maybe I should try for a 58pz850 as well....

S1 series are okay with respect to the black level issue? Or you just feel the flaw is justifiable with the lower price of S1? Sorry, I haven't read all the past comments in this thread yet.
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post #778 of 11194 Old 12-07-2009, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

S1 series are okay with respect to the black level issue? Or you just feel the flaw is justifiable with the lower price of S1? Sorry, I haven't read all the past comments in this thread yet.

I don't think that anyone with the S1 series has reported the issue so far, but the lower cost would help to swallow this kind of flaw.

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post #779 of 11194 Old 12-07-2009, 12:07 PM
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I don't think that anyone with the S1 series has reported the issue so far, but the lower cost would help to swallow this kind of flaw.

How would the cost of a TV 'swallow' a prominent item such as black level? My post above shows data for all the lowest cost Panasonics. Black level is black level is black level.

Larry
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post #780 of 11194 Old 12-07-2009, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

S1 series are okay with respect to the black level issue? Or you just feel the flaw is justifiable with the lower price of S1? Sorry, I haven't read all the past comments in this thread yet.

I've linked to a couple users in the original post that thought they saw the increase on the S1.
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