Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 11198 Old 12-12-2009, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 2greedy View Post

I bought my G15 in Aug (June build date), ran the 120h slideshow, modified the SM menus with settings I found here and my black levels are just as I remembered them...hours...over 400h at least...I'm using a HTPC...Since we tend to only hear from people who's having problems with their TVs in threads like these, I figure I'll post to say that my G15's black is still as good as I remembered it. No increase for me.

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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

I however will take the time to post that I now have 656 hours on my P46G10 and my blacks look the same as when it was first unboxed. Fantastic.

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Originally Posted by DavidOH View Post

The blacks look as good as always. I have a 50G10 with 1242hrs.

Thanks guys. That definitely boosts my confidence up. But just in case, are there any resellers that offer the G10 w/ a 90 day return policy? Given the THX issue's a little bit of a lottery, I was thinking of ordering a 42S1 from WalMart because they would give me 90 days to ensure my black level's don't wig out.
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post #812 of 11198 Old 12-13-2009, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Took a quite snapshot of an all black screen on my G10 and Samsung 226BW TN LCD monitor with the lights out:

http://img17.imageshack.us/i/img1472kr.jpg/

The G10 is still waaay darker. You can hardly even find it in this picture. I'll probably take another picture in a few months to determine if the black level has risen at all.

That's how G12 panasonic should look like in dark!
It definitely helps to see if blacks are going worst when comparing to another display. In my case this change in black level is so big it doesn't need a meter to prove it. Just comparing it to something... "not so good". And looking meteor's snapshot there's obviously nothing wrong with those blacks.

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Originally Posted by jodiuh View Post

Thanks guys. That definitely boosts my confidence up. But just in case, are there any resellers that offer the G10 w/ a 90 day return policy? Given the THX issue's a little bit of a lottery, I was thinking of ordering a 42S1 from WalMart because they would give me 90 days to ensure my black level's don't wig out.

Those who hesitate to buy G12 panasonics I want to say it is a great set if there isn't problems.

1. Great picture overall without major adjustments/calibration
2. Best blacks in current retailing TV's. Still nowhere near 9G Kuros.
3. Best shadow detail in current retailing tv's. Especially in EU models which have gamma control.
4. Satisfactory and surprisingly high brightness even when watching in daylight. Anti-reflective coating helps reflections but doesn't eliminate them completely.
5. Great for gaming because of no input lag and no image retention problems
6. No floating blacks
7. No floating white level in cinema-mode (custom-mode or THX in US I guess)? Even when watching white screen.
8. Viewing angle is suitable for wathing with friends or family. Maybe not good if all your friends have LCD's and you need privacy or don't like superbowl.
9. Gamma adjustment (only in EU model). 2.0, 2.2, 2,5 and S-curve

negatives:
1. Minor "ghosting or banding or some kind of trailing" in moving objects. IFC (600hz) helps when switched on. I don't know right term for this "symptom". Good example when wathing tennis in 1080i or SD and player is zoomed close when moving. Player skin has some gradient errors like PC-monitor on 16-bit mode. I haven't seen this on blu-rays much.
2. Blacks can go gray if you get a lemon.
3. No gamma adjustment in US model.
4. If used to LCD/CRT picture can look little bit juddery especially in 24p but gets better after getting used to it.
5. Some buzzing can be heard especially on bright scenes.
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post #813 of 11198 Old 12-13-2009, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by L7R View Post

That's how G12 panasonic should look like in dark!
It definitely helps to see if blacks are going worst when comparing to another display. In my case this change in black level is so big it doesn't need a meter to prove it. Just comparing it to something... "not so good". And looking meteor's snapshot there's obviously nothing wrong with those blacks.

Shouldn't gamma be set lower for your pic. comparison?
When I simulate your setting with a Samsung on a no input screen, black level rises considerably.
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post #814 of 11198 Old 12-13-2009, 06:50 AM
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I set gamma to 2.5 just because it's darkest (blackest) just to be sure everything is set as dark as possible. Other choices from lightest to darkest are 2.0, 2.2, and s-curve. Actually it's not important where the gamma is set because brightness and contrast are set as low as they possibly get. so that gamma setting doesn't affect anything.

sidenote;
In european model only setting which affects black level is brightness. And it goes from -30 to +30, where 0 is default setting. European G10 is very easy to set-up because if brightness is set anything below 0 (even -1!) it crushes blacks and anything above 0 moves black towards gray. This is when using source with 16-235 rgb range. So setting brightness to -30 ensures my set is producing blackest black it possibly can. And gamma setting in G10 doesn't change black at all, as it should not, if properly implemented. In general, gamma affects only darkest shades but not black level itself.
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post #815 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 07:30 AM
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I spoke with my local Panasonic tech again, he offered me a 54V10 as an exchange, but I declined and went ahead with a refund instead. They haven't come up with a fix yet and swapping out parts and units seems to be the only fix right now. I'm not sure what I will be getting instead, but I will be going cheaper and probably smaller and just wait for next years stuff.

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post #816 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 09:22 AM
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i would stay away from panasonic .... if it was me i would go with Samsung plasma or LED
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post #817 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

i would stay away from panasonic .... if it was me i would go with Samsung plasma or LED

I might go back to a Samsung LCD, but I wouldn't touch one of their Plasma sets, or one of their LCDs with LED backlighting that they like to false advertise with. (less performance for a lot more money)

Panasonic does have some of the best customer service available, but their quality control seems to be slipping and all these new energy requirements are also hurting them.

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post #818 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

i would stay away from panasonic .... if it was me i would go with Samsung plasma or LED

I tried one of the Samsung plasmas before I swapped it out and got a 54G10. The buzzing was just intolerable. We're talking buzzing as if you had a grounding issue or something. In a quiet scene, it was very distracting, and of course once you got sensitized to it, you always heard it.

Read the Samsung buzzing thread here, swapped it out for a new Samsung plasma, same problem (annoying enough that my wife, who always thinks I'm ridiculously picky, commented "that sounds really annoying! Is it supposed to do that?") even let them talk me into one more swap, and same thing. So I gave up.

If you think a black level increase (to the point some people have talked about, where they aren't really sure if they have it or not) or a THX greenish tinge (which I don't care about since I calibrated custom and have no need for THX mode) is annoying, try a TV that makes a constant annoying buzz the entire time you have it on. I know, before the Sammy lovers jump in, not all of them have the problem. But enough do that people are trying all kinds of fixes, and enough do that I got 3 in a row that have the problem.
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post #819 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally got around to attempting comparison pics b/t the S1 and G10. I don't know crap about cameras, just got an almost 4 year old point and shoot POS Nikon. Far as I can tell from the EXIF data, the relevant stats on these 2 pics are identical (Exposure 2 sec, ISO 200). Ignore the fierce Dragon Age HUD IR on the G10, I've clocked 20 hours in like 3 or 4 days. Camera exaggerates what the G10 looks like in person, but the purpose is just to show the stark contrast between the 2 panels. These are both black JPEGs viewed on a PS3, no dithering/activation noise is visible on either set in person.




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post #820 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I spoke with my local Panasonic tech again, he offered me a 54V10 as an exchange, but I declined and went ahead with a refund instead. They haven't come up with a fix yet and swapping out parts and units seems to be the only fix right now. I'm not sure what I will be getting instead, but I will be going cheaper and probably smaller and just wait for next years stuff.

I've had a 65" V10 for 3 1/2 months and it still has an excellent picture. I would think if the TV was going to go bad it would happen by now. But who knows.
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post #821 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Finally got around to attempting comparison pics b/t the S1 and G10. I don't know crap about cameras, just got an almost 4 year old point and shoot POS Nikon. Far as I can tell from the EXIF data, the relevant stats on these 2 pics are identical (Exposure 2 sec, ISO 200). Ignore the fierce Dragon Age HUD IR on the G10, I've clocked 20 hours in like 3 or 4 days. Camera exaggerates what the G10 looks like in person, but the purpose is just to show the stark contrast between the 2 panels.

Are you still getting 0.008 ftL black from S1?
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post #822 of 11198 Old 12-14-2009, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Are you still getting 0.008 ftL black from S1?

Haven't measured it in a couple weeks, but most likely. I'd estimate it only just topped 100 hours of use. Only gets used 3 or 4 hours a day.
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post #823 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Finally got around to attempting comparison pics b/t the S1 and G10. I don't know crap about cameras, just got an almost 4 year old point and shoot POS Nikon. Far as I can tell from the EXIF data, the relevant stats on these 2 pics are identical (Exposure 2 sec, ISO 200). Ignore the fierce Dragon Age HUD IR on the G10, I've clocked 20 hours in like 3 or 4 days. Camera exaggerates what the G10 looks like in person, but the purpose is just to show the stark contrast between the 2 panels. These are both black JPEGs viewed on a PS3, no dithering/activation noise is visible on either set in person.





My G10 has blacks like your S10, , so it seems my G10 may be normal as I've always suspected. Don't really know how much hours it clocks, but I bought it in March/April, and used 3-4 hours a day.
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post #824 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 05:28 AM
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Orta, when you get a chance, could you take a couple of pics of the same scene in an HD sourced movie or show, to see what that looks like in a picture?
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post #825 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 06:42 AM
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It's good to show comparison pix, but to do it properly, people should really shoot both sets in the same frame. This will eliminate the possibility of different exposures, shutter speeds, f-stops, distance, distorting the comparison. Otherwise to make it meaningful, you have to manually guarantee the same ISO, Aperture, and Shutterspeed settings, as well as distance and ambient conditions...

-Greg
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post #826 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 09:06 AM
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My 54" G10 looks just like the photo of Orta's G10. Mine actually looks a little worse. No idea how many hours are on it, as I've never been in the service menu. I've had the TV since June 2009, and watch it for a couple hours each day. It's running the latest firmware.

My TV used to look like the S1 as seen in Orta's photo - not anymore. I have no idea what to do about it, since nobody seems to have a fix.
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post #827 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Orta, when you get a chance, could you take a couple of pics of the same scene in an HD sourced movie or show, to see what that looks like in a picture?

I'll give it a shot, but the camera is crap. Any scene with some contrast will probably be crushed to look identical. Might capture a difference in a dim scene.

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It's good to show comparison pix, but to do it properly, people should really shoot both sets in the same frame. This will eliminate the possibility of different exposures, shutter speeds, f-stops, distance, distorting the comparison. Otherwise to make it meaningful, you have to manually guarantee the same ISO, Aperture, and Shutterspeed settings, as well as distance and ambient conditions...

Unfortunately, that's not really possible with a 65" and 50" panel on different floors of a house. I don't really know what any of that stuff is, but I believe you can check the EXIF data on your end by saving the pics to your computer and viewing properties > details. Far as I can tell, they seem to be identical. Both were taken in pitch darkness, so there shouldn't be any ambient conditions. I do have a shot of the G10 taken from the same distance, but didn't post it cause it looks the same as the one where I got them equal in frame:

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post #828 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 09:45 AM
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Mine has been having this same issue, and I just talked to Panasonic which referred me to a local authorized technician. They said it's not a known issue, so the likelihood of this getting repaired under warranty is very unlikely How did you guys manage to get your boards replaced?
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post #829 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glaufman View Post

It's good to show comparison pix, but to do it properly, people should really shoot both sets in the same frame.

I agree, but I believe the pics Orta took captured what he was describing, and he already provided light meter readings on both sets.
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post #830 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 12:19 PM
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Just so's I have it right ... the S1 is the TOP panel ?

You''ve had your S1 for how long ?
Are you satisfied with the current black level of your S1 ??

You've had your G10 for how long ?

thanks , jls.

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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Finally got around to attempting comparison pics b/t the S1 and G10. I don't know crap about cameras, just got an almost 4 year old point and shoot POS Nikon. Far as I can tell from the EXIF data, the relevant stats on these 2 pics are identical (Exposure 2 sec, ISO 200). Ignore the fierce Dragon Age HUD IR on the G10, I've clocked 20 hours in like 3 or 4 days. Camera exaggerates what the G10 looks like in person, but the purpose is just to show the stark contrast between the 2 panels. These are both black JPEGs viewed on a PS3, no dithering/activation noise is visible on either set in person.





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post #831 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 12:45 PM
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^ Are those shots taken with a input selected by with the PS3/360 Turned off?

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post #832 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Just so's I have it right ... the S1 is the TOP panel ?

You''ve had your S1 for how long ?
Are you satisfied with the current black level of your S1 ??

You've had your G10 for how long ?

thanks , jls.

Yea, the top pic (or left depending on your desktop res) is the S1. It's an October build, only had it about a month. Probably has around 100 hours use. The bottom pic (or right depending on res) is an April build G10 I've had for like 7 months. It's probably pushing 2000 hours use. Black level on the S1 is great, very pleased with it. On the G10, it sucks obviously. It's about the same or worse than my mid and low range CCFL LCD's from '08 (e.g. A550, A650).

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^ Are those shots taken with a input selected by with the PS3/360 Turned off?

No, those aren't blank input shots. The PS3 is on, I'm viewing a a black JPEG there. I did take some blank input shots as well, but they're the same. You can see the phosphorescence where the "HDMI 1" label stays on for like a minute in the top right corner. I'll post one here when I get home if anyone wants to see it, but there's no difference.
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post #833 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 01:25 PM
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Orta, is there a reason why it's more proper to use a black jpeg image to test as opposed to just a no input signal? I took my picture on a no input signal as it looked exactly like my tv's blacks.

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post #834 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Orta, is there a reason why it's more proper to use a black jpeg image to test as opposed to just a no input signal? I took my picture on a no input signal as it looked exactly like my tv's blacks.

It could be due to the priming effect. My plasma display (141) will only use its deepest blacks when a signal is detected. This is because it has a built in system that increases the black level on no input in order to keep the pixels hot (primed). When a signal is detected the panel returns to it's deepest black level for normal operation.

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post #835 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Orta, is there a reason why it's more proper to use a black jpeg image to test as opposed to just a no input signal? I took my picture on a no input signal as it looked exactly like my tv's blacks.

I'm not sure, but on the S1, I have run into odd behavior with blank inputs (likely caused by the cable box and TV shifting levels b/t SD and HD) where it will necessitate the "Brightness" to be turned down to like 15 or 20 to get rid of the dithering/activation noise--even with the box off and the TV having been turned off all night.
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post #836 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 02:19 PM
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Heres what im working with on my new G10. Taken with a iphone 2.0 camera with no flash but this is what it looks like when looking at the set also.

I've had 2 G10's and i can't remember if the other one was blacker. Oh well. What do you think? It only has about 80hours. Hopefully no issues as i love the picture on it.

This is with a black jpeg pic.
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post #837 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by djbrettb View Post

Mine has been having this same issue, and I just talked to Panasonic which referred me to a local authorized technician. They said it's not a known issue, so the likelihood of this getting repaired under warranty is very unlikely How did you guys manage to get your boards replaced?

I told the Panasonic concierge that it is a known issue and he contacted a local tech to come out. The local tech couldn't see a problem, but I told him that it's a known issue and that people with the issue were getting their boards replaced. He came back with the A-board, installed it and Panasonic paid.

On a side note, I could tell immediately, even with afternoon sunlight streaming in, that the black levels were much better after the board replacement. However, now that I've watched some blu-rays at night I can see that the blacks did not return to the level they were at when I first got the tv. I'll wait a bit and see how much it's bothering me before I call Panasonic again to request a whole new tv. Maybe there'll be a firmware fix before I have to resort to that. Please hurry, Japan!
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post #838 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tlivesay View Post

I told the Panasonic concierge that it is a known issue and he contacted a local tech to come out. The local tech couldn't see a problem, but I told him that it's a known issue and that people with the issue were getting their boards replaced. He came back with the A-board, installed it and Panasonic paid.

On a side note, I could tell immediately, even with afternoon sunlight streaming in, that the black levels were much better after the board replacement. However, now that I've watched some blu-rays at night I can see that the blacks did not return to the level they were at when I first got the tv. I'll wait a bit and see how much it's bothering me before I call Panasonic again to request a whole new tv. Maybe there'll be a firmware fix before I have to resort to that. Please hurry, Japan!

The light gray pics are what I'm seeing on my older g10 as well. Your findings are confusing the matter worse....If the problem is a sporadic one that doesn't effect all owners of the g12 line then it has to be on the component/hardware side, either with a board or god fobid with the PDP/phosphor itself. If it is a sporadic and not a universal issue then couldn't one rule out it being a software issue and thus ruling out any possible firmware fix?

Do the newer units have this problem like the older ones seem too? If not, then Panny may have slipped a fix in there and the older model owners should be offered a free fix or some sort of compensation...
Can we get verified if this is a sporadic vs universal issue and whether it eventually effects all the g12 models...ie X1, S1, G10, and V10, etc or not?

If it's any of the later, then Panny better pony up for some mass recalls like Toyota does when its gas pedal sticks...

I'm about ready to take action myself... going to see my sisters new s1 over xmas....I'll check her sets blacks as she'll have several hundred hrs on it by now...I'll report back my findings....
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post #839 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 06:53 PM
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cold_fusion,

A sticking gas pedal is a potential threat to life and limb. That is why there was a recall.

The only threat that I can imagine caused by rising black levels is that of being slashed by flying glass as a shoe shatters the plasma panel.

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post #840 of 11198 Old 12-15-2009, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I don't really know what any of that stuff is, but I believe you can check the EXIF data on your end by saving the pics to your computer and viewing properties > details. Far as I can tell, they seem to be identical.

Yup. I do know cameras, and what "that stuff" is, and it looks identical to me to. A little surprising, but the same nontheless. Good job

I guess in pitch black this is simply the widest/longest the camera can go once you disabled the flash... I assume you either had the camera on a tripod for those shots or sat it on a dresser in timer mode or something similar?

-Greg
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