Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 292 - AVS Forum
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post #8731 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Back on topic ----

Even though I knew from technical experience that it wouldn't work (the tolerance for setting Vad being about 0.5%,) I couldn't resist and tried it last night.

After viewing for about 3 hours, I found no discernable difference and, therefore, didn't even unpack my meters. Sorry, guys. It appears to be another dead end again.

Larry

The only thing I noticed was reduced IR, but I can't say 100% if this was placebo

EDIT: But if this wouldn't/couldn't work, then how did Sonic's MLL, and several other's MLL lower???
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post #8732 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 01:51 PM
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I will say that after adjusting today, the TV let me adjust much further, and is now a full 180* away from original position, as opposed to yesterday, about 45*
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post #8733 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

The only thing I noticed was reduced IR, but I can't say 100% if this was placebo

EDIT: But if this wouldn't/couldn't work, then how did Sonic's MLL, and several other's MLL lower???

Sonic has retracted his conclusion. As for the others: I don't give any credence to pictures taken of a plasma screen. I also am a true believer in the placebo effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

I will say that after adjusting today, the TV let me adjust much further, and is now a full 180* away from original position, as opposed to yesterday, about 45*

I wouldn't play too much with these controls unless you know what you are doing and have the proper equipment -- or you are willing to accept the consequences.

Larry
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post #8734 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Sonic has retracted his conclusion. As for the others: I don't give any credence to pictures taken of a plasma screen. I also am a true believer in the placebo effect.




I wouldn't play too much with these controls unless you know what you are doing and have the proper equipment -- or you are willing to accept the consequences.

Larry

Yeah, but his MLL is still .014 with the pot adjustment, vs .018 w/o. Will it most likely keep adjusting/closing so that the adjustment won't make a difference?
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post #8735 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Yeah, but his MLL is still .014 with the pot adjustment, vs .018 w/o. Will it most likely keep adjusting/closing so that the adjustment won't make a difference?


But in another post he said some stuff that makes me wonder about the accuracy of of his meter -- and the methodology of his measuring. But I'll let him respond when he wakes up later in Australia.

Larry
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post #8736 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 02:30 PM
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For what its worth, I opened the Panasonic EEPROM on a hex editor in my computer. What should I look for?
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post #8737 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Back on topic ----

Even though I knew from technical experience that it wouldn't work (the tolerance for setting Vad being about 0.5%,) I couldn't resist and tried it last night.

After viewing for about 3 hours, I found no discernable difference and, therefore, didn't even unpack my meters. Sorry, guys. It appears to be another dead end again.

Larry

Thank you for trying this and letting everyone know the results.

Over all are you still happy with your set after the rise?
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post #8738 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

No, its not true. It only happens when you start making things up like "they fixed it around November 09", and inferring that engineers never make a mistake, even though they admitted they may have been too heavy handed with the adjustments. You can't disguise made up fact with opinion, and then not expect a response; not to mention the last part of the post was clearly made to evoke a response. Our current understanding of the situation is based on fact, not opinion.

And your opinion about the long terms effects is valid. I'm sure it does negatively effect the long term performance. But when a TV is rated 100,000 hours, I'm not worrying. Even if the lifespan was cut in half, which is most likely very exaggerated, most people wouldn't even come remotely close. Seeing has how you think it is very minor, "just turning a screw", how would this be a big deal anyway?

I never said that it's true about fixing the problem in Novemeber 09. I said I think, I think, I think. Not factual.

Websters/ opinion
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : approval, esteem
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based.

I think we can both agree my opinion is loosely based on number 1.

Read and comprehend, and when did I say they never made a mistake. I said it is what it is. Your pretty angry about not letting people give their opinions. Your also taking material out of context. I only said it was "true" that people get all bent out of shape if you don't agree with them. Do yourself a favor and slow down and read before you respond.

Now get back to fixing our TV's.
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post #8739 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

Thank you for trying this and letting everyone know the results.

Over all are you still happy with your set after the rise?


I'm happier than I would be with a 2010 Panasonic. I experience the floating black issue with my px75u and found that I am much more sensitive to floating blacks than graying blacks. All in all, I am pleased with both my 42 and 50X1 sets.

For general information to the new members, I have owned a 2006 px60u, a 2007 px75u, two 2008 px80us, and now two 2009 x1s. (I bought entry level sets each year to see the change in technology.) I had intended to get a 2010 model but, at the first mention of floating blacks, I decided to skip this year.

Larry
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post #8740 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobMueller10 View Post

Put the TV on a blank input. Turn the pot counter clockwise slowly .

No, no, no! NOT clockwise, the opposite!
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post #8741 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

No, no, no! NOT clockwise, the opposite!

Hey turrican, I have the eeprom on a hex editor on PC. Can you help me find my 58S1's clock, or any voltage settings?
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post #8742 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xmalachi View Post

Yeah, a page or two back someone did and it fried his TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

No, no, no! NOT clockwise, the opposite!

Clockwise is what the previous poster did to fry his TV.. After turning counter-clockwise seemed to have no effect. I'm not saying this WOULD work on a 2008 model, I'm just saying that whatever you do, IF you find the right trim-pot... PLEASE know what you're doing! Otherwise you have no one to complain to but yourself.

cheers!
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post #8743 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 03:50 PM
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Hi,

I've uploaded my EEPROM so anyone smarter than me can analyze it

PANNY TC-P58S1

TIME: 00962:43 Count:1150

http://www.mediafire.com/?kdwemmw22dm

Can anyone using a hex editor tell me where my clock is located?
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post #8744 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 05:09 PM
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So I adjusted my pot last night, but I'm not sure if there was an improvement or not. I watched Moon to test the luminance, but it was also the first time watching the movie. Regardless, I was only really looking at the black bars, which are universal in luminance for movies. I do have an i1 LT, but I'm in the Yukon where we currently have 24hrs of daylight, and making any luminance measurements would be pointless. I can get the room very dim, but not pitch black. I'll have to wait until August to take any accurate measurements.

I'll report back tonight after I'm done watching some more material and looking at more blank screens. Note that my luminance level was/is at 0.012ftL, so if I went to, say, 0.009ftL, the changes might not be easy to discern. Also, maybe the new voltage will settle in, or maybe I'll burn the house down. Who knows. In the name of science, at least... kinda.

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post #8745 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 05:20 PM
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Yeah, okay, the VAD adjustment hasn't changed the MLL at all. Maybe before some of the preprogrammed rises, but not on my set. Is there a reset button on the A board lol?
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post #8746 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 05:24 PM
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Looking at the service manual, there seem to be reset "buttons" on some of the boards. Any ideas?
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post #8747 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 05:35 PM
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I just had my a-board replaced today. Weird thing was, it was just ordered, and it came with 1.12 firmware. I immediately upgraded to 1.29. Question is - would this have anything to do with mll? Fwiw - I haven't noticed any differences; and I adjusted the pot last night until the tv shut off. By re way, since doing that, sometimes, it'll shut down for no reason and do the 7 led blinks. I'll have to reset the tv or turn the screw just a hair and turn the tv on again and it's fine.
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post #8748 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 05:42 PM
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Sorry for the off-topic but does anyone know if the SD card reader of the TX-46G10E reads well the new Class 10 SD cards ?

Please if anyone knows for sure ... please let me know ASAP.

Thanks.
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post #8749 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 05:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kuester View Post

Seriously?

You think the troll comment had to do with your opinion of the TV and not this? "Last time I said that, there was a major cry session going on in here by the super nerds."

Seriously?!?

This thread looks like it might actually become useful again, then you come in and start talking about "cry sessions, angry nerds, and super nerds" and have a problem with being called a troll. That's funny.

Product of condensing people like yourself who feel they are somehow smarter than the Panasonic engineers who actually know what they are doing.
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post #8750 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

No, no, no! NOT clockwise, the opposite!

Hey Turrican! Nice to see you are still following, despite all the trolling. Any news on the EEPROM edit thing that you were investigating in the glorious days of this thread?
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post #8751 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 07:51 PM
 
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After leaving the TV on overnight, MLL has come down a bit, to 0.012ftL. But I think most would agree this is not low enough to be worth the adjustment.

So I am going to agree it is a dead end and I do not think anyone should try it and I will not be sending out instructions anymore.

Now I just have to decide whether I want to set the pot back to it's original position. It's probably better for the TV, but then my blacks will be even worse. Decisions...
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post #8752 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 08:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwil View Post

Question - When that Vad pot is turned counterclockwise to where the TV shuts off, what is the number of blinks that the power LED displays? It appears it should be 6 or 7 blinks, but just wanted to confirm.

7 blinks on mine.
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post #8753 of 11217 Old 06-17-2010, 09:55 PM
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Also, up until now, even though I did the procedure last night - I was extremely skeptical in terms of any results. I know camera shots are begging to be called unreliable and fake, but my buddy has an 800 dollar camera - he took a shot yesterday before I did the procedure, and we never took an after photo - but just by looking at a blank input - the screen looks noticably darker. Without question.

Maybe it was the new a-board I had put in today, perhaps - but still. It's pretty blatant. The black is deeper.
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post #8754 of 11217 Old 06-18-2010, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kramer View Post

Maybe it was the new a-board I had put in today, perhaps - but still. It's pretty blatant. The black is deeper.

When the new A-board was installed, were any voltage adjustments made using a meter or o-scope during installation?

Also, was an SD card used to backup the data before the new board installation, and then the data reinstalled after the new board was installed?

That which may be known of God is evident within man, for God has shown it to them, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20)
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post #8755 of 11217 Old 06-18-2010, 07:01 AM
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No. The geeksquad came out to do it yesterday. I had someone there to watch over the tv while I was at work. I'll stress, again, that there really is a difference here. I was sold that this adjustment via the screw was completely pointless and I wouldve told people not even to waste their time. Whether the a-board alone, the screw alone, or the combo together produced better results for me - I don't care. The tv looks close to what it was when I bought it. And yes, I'm talking about black levels being tough to distinguish from the bezel - and for what it's worth - my panel at its deepest black was a very light grey in a dark room setting. No longer is that the case. It's pretty damn dark again. Now, hopefully it stays this way.
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post #8756 of 11217 Old 06-18-2010, 08:39 AM
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New aboards make your TV look awesome, that's for sure.

But...

the brightness will come back in 6-8 weeks.
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post #8757 of 11217 Old 06-18-2010, 09:04 AM
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One stupid question that I've never seen the answeer here .... "Why does this voltage level occurs?"

I'm not asking how it occurs ... I'm asking why ?

Is it suposed to compensate the aging of the plasma? If so then the algorithm is very wrong because it rises too soon and too quick.

Come on Panasonic ... act like a grown company and give us a firmware with the algorithm corrected.

If this had happen for intance in the computer motherboard industry, soon there was a new firmware released to correct the problem.

After all is not why there are firmwares? Rigth?
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post #8758 of 11217 Old 06-18-2010, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Nope.

No way would i try this. I like my G10 just fine - i don't want to brick it

Are these sets experiencing different degrees of black level rising? RandyWalters and others have repeatedly posted that the black level rise is negligible and nothing to worry about while other posters claims it's almost a night and day difference from great black levels to substandard black levels. I don't have this set but was interested in obtaining one but I am very confused by the wild variance in these posts. Can someone explain this extreme variance to me, I mean is it all perception or are some sets rising too a much greater degree than others?
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post #8759 of 11217 Old 06-18-2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by The Hammer MGS4 View Post

Are these sets experiencing different degrees of black level rising? RandyWalters and others have repeatedly posted that the black level rise is negligible and nothing to worry about while other posters claims it's almost a night and day difference from great black levels to substandard black levels. I don't have this set but was interested in obtaining one but I am very confused by the wild variance in these posts. Can someone explain this extreme variance to me, I mean is it all perception or are some sets rising too a much greater degree than others?

It all comes down to ambient lighting and screen size (42-54 vs 58-65) My blacks can look superb; perfectly black with the right lighting. But in a dark room, they are a medium shade of gray. Also, smaller sets start with a higher MLL, about .007/8 ftl vs about .005/6 ftl fr the 58+ sets. The black levels triple by around 1500-2000 hours on ALL sets. SO that would peg the larger sets at .015-.18 ftl, with the lower sets at about .21-.24 ftl. This is a fairly noticeable difference, so there will be some variance, but it comes down to TV size and ambient lighting. (I have a 58S1)
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post #8760 of 11217 Old 06-18-2010, 12:34 PM
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After 2,500 hours or so has anyone checked to see if their user settings, color, gamma etc changed from when they originally calibrated their set?
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