Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 295 - AVS Forum
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post #8821 of 11404 Old 06-26-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Really useless AR coating, tons of glare. Extremely inaccurate color, excessive green push worse than last years S1, and then those other features like pic adjustments, 24P, , etc

What about when comparing the 58in and 65in sets, not much choice there, you either spend a fourtune for a VT25 and get all the features, or buy 2 65S2 units for the same price....

If only the G series was availible in a 65 inch size, I don't care about 3D but I do want the better AR filter and picture options....

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post #8822 of 11404 Old 06-26-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

What about when comparing the 58in and 65in sets, not much choice there, you either spend a fourtune for a VT25 and get all the features, or buy 2 65S2 units for the same price....

If only the G series was availible in a 65 inch size, I don't care about 3D but I do want the better AR filter and picture options....

They should have marketed the v20 in the us/canada. Its the VT25 w/o 3D.
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post #8823 of 11404 Old 06-26-2010, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

I have been told by a very reliable source that the black level can be reset by connecting a laptop to the port on the A-board (behind the plastic flap) and "resetting" the firmware to its original state.

There are 2 ports behind that plastic flap on a TH-42PX80U. I have no idea what connectors these are, as of yet.


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post #8824 of 11404 Old 06-26-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

No...what happened was my set had another programmed MLL rise a few days after I adjusted the pot. After that happened I couldn't get it as low as its original 0.008ftL level.

Anyway, please don't adjust the pot because there isn't really any point as it only has a minimal effect on MLL and it's probably coincidental that it's having any effect at all. Long term effects are unknown so it's just not worth it imo.

I would not call a 30 percent difference in black level minimal.
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post #8825 of 11404 Old 06-26-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tomwil View Post

There are 2 ports behind that plastic flap on a TH-42PX80U. I have no idea what connectors these are, as of yet.


Not much good without knowing the IC's (integrated circuits-- errr, "chips") that they connect to... Good choice for a sig line, BTW!

..dane
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post #8826 of 11404 Old 06-26-2010, 11:14 PM
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On the TH-42PX80U, these ports are labeled A17 (20-pin) & A18 (11-pin) connectors with the description "For Factory Use". Going by the schematic, A17 seems to be a control port, whereas A18 does EEPROM writes. Appears there is no other information in the service manual.






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post #8827 of 11404 Old 06-27-2010, 01:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

I would not call a 30 percent difference in black level minimal.

Maybe not...but still, anything less than a complete restoration of the original 0.008ftL is not good enough imo. I don't think it's worth tinkering with the pot when there is a proper fix available (firmware reset via the A-board).
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post #8828 of 11404 Old 06-27-2010, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

Maybe not...but still, anything less than a complete restoration of the original 0.008ftL is not good enough imo. I don't think it's worth tinkering with the pot when there is a proper fix available (firmware reset via the A-board).

Yeah, but how do we get our hands on the software? DO we even need a software?
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post #8829 of 11404 Old 06-27-2010, 09:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Yeah, but how do we get our hands on the software? DO we even need a software?

The software is needed to communicate with the A-board. We need someone to hook us up with the software, possibly a service tech, or a calibrator who has the software (see this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post18789841)

If any calibrators out there know anything, please come forward with the info.

Another possibility: take a snapshot of the memory editor contents before and after the tech does the firmware restoration, then we won't need the software.
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post #8830 of 11404 Old 06-27-2010, 12:00 PM
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So, what I'm seeing is that the dark room black levels are essentially the same on both the VT25 and the S2? I wish someone could verify this so I could make my decision. My room has dark walls, ceilings and I have blackout drapes so glare and ambient light aren't necessarily issues. But, if the black levels are significantly different then I would purchase the VT25.
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post #8831 of 11404 Old 06-27-2010, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

The software is needed to communicate with the A-board. We need someone to hook us up with the software, possibly a service tech, or a calibrator who has the software (see this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post18789841)

If any calibrators out there know anything, please come forward with the info.

Another possibility: take a snapshot of the memory editor contents before and after the tech does the firmware restoration, then we won't need the software.

1) If this were/is a viable solution, and
2) If professional calibrators have access to the software,

then

3) Why did D-NICE never even mention this as a possible fix (or did he)?

just curious...
..dane
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post #8832 of 11404 Old 06-27-2010, 04:39 PM
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Well I do have to say that we are spoiled for solid black levels. I was at my brother in laws, and he has a 55 inch LNB650 LCD. During the day, his black levels are UNBELIEVABLE. I mean, there was a shot of space with some stars, and the space looked PITCH black. Like better Kuro black looks at night. It was unbelievable, and I can see why people purchase LCD's when they see them at Best Buy. But right when the sun went down a tiny bit, the blacks started turning blue, like a dark blue, and by night, it was just a medium/dark blue, not even gray. At least my S1 looks like a light charcoal color, and the blacks are in reality I'd guess 3 times darker on my S1, even post rise. Its just that after the rise, there is no real sweet spot for the blacks. Picture washed out during the day. There is one small sweet spot, but it only lasts for like an hour a day, around twilight with some dim lights on. Blacks look superb then.
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post #8833 of 11404 Old 06-28-2010, 12:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

3) Why did D-NICE never even mention this as a possible fix (or did he)?

just curious...
..dane

I'm not sure, maybe D-Nice can comment.
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post #8834 of 11404 Old 06-28-2010, 09:03 AM
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I doubt he's paying attention to this thread, anyway.
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post #8835 of 11404 Old 06-28-2010, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Well I do have to say that we are spoiled for solid black levels. I was at my brother in laws, and he has a 55 inch LNB650 LCD. During the day, his black levels are UNBELIEVABLE. I mean, there was a shot of space with some stars, and the space looked PITCH black. Like better Kuro black looks at night. It was unbelievable, and I can see why people purchase LCD's when they see them at Best Buy. But right when the sun went down a tiny bit, the blacks started turning blue, like a dark blue, and by night, it was just a medium/dark blue, not even gray. At least my S1 looks like a light charcoal color, and the blacks are in reality I'd guess 3 times darker on my S1, even post rise. Its just that after the rise, there is no real sweet spot for the blacks. Picture washed out during the day. There is one small sweet spot, but it only lasts for like an hour a day, around twilight with some dim lights on. Blacks look superb then.

If I read you right you're saying that even after the rise on your 58s1 that the blacks are still better then your brothers 55b650 when the lights go down, is that correct?
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post #8836 of 11404 Old 06-28-2010, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

If I read you right you're saying that even after the rise on your 58s1 that the blacks are still better then your brothers 55b650 when the lights go down, is that correct?

100% no comparison, like exponentially darker. It gets even more ridiculous when I move off angle

I think I'm just spoiled from my first 3 or 400 hours of viewing that I became used to excellent black levels.
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post #8837 of 11404 Old 06-28-2010, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

100% no comparison, like exponentially darker. It gets even more ridiculous when I move off angle

I think I'm just spoiled from my first 3 or 400 hours of viewing that I became used to excellent black levels.

I have an 52XBR9 that I used to have in my theater room that is now the family room/ living room tv. In the theater room the flashlighting and clouding were horrendous, but virtually undetectable in our family room. Just like your brothers 55b650 the blacks are out of this world when sunlight is coming through the windows with virtually no glare due to the matte screen. I must say that during these times (at least to my eyes) that this tv produces pq that's hard to beat

When it was in my theater room I never thought to myself that the blacks were bad by any means. I knew they could be blacker, but were still really good. It's the flashlighting and clouding that did it in for that room. If a 58V10 rose to that around the same black level of my 52Xbr9, I think I'd still be happy with it. The increase in IR is what is worrysome. I know that post rise IR get's worse, but is it manageble with the scrolling bar or other means?
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post #8838 of 11404 Old 06-28-2010, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

I have an 52XBR9 that I used to have in my theater room that is now the family room/ living room tv. In the theater room the flashlighting and clouding were horrendous, but virtually undetectable in our family room. Just like your brothers 55b650 the blacks are out of this world when sunlight is coming through the windows with virtually no glare due to the matte screen. I must say that during these times (at least to my eyes) that this tv produces pq that's hard to beat

When it was in my theater room I never thought to myself that the blacks were bad by any means. I knew they could be blacker, but were still really good. It's the flashlighting and clouding that did it in for that room. If a 58V10 rose to that around the same black level of my 52Xbr9, I think I'd still be happy with it. The increase in IR is what is worrysome. I know that post rise IR get's worse, but is it manageble with the scrolling bar or other means?

Yeah, its definitely manageable. But its very annoying, as it is prominent enough to show up in dark movie scenes.
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post #8839 of 11404 Old 06-29-2010, 05:36 PM
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Anyway. With the return of my v10 back to its former glory with the replacement of an a-board; we've gotta get to the bottom of how we could reset our a-boards - at whatever way works. It's definitive; in order to 'solve' the black level issue - it's all we've got to figure out.

I watched The Rock on bluray last night, and i know its only an iPhone camera - but the bars on the top and bottom of the screen with content are pretty much 'bezel-black' its been nice seeing that again.
LL
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post #8840 of 11404 Old 06-29-2010, 09:57 PM
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We couldn't just use any terminal emulator software? I think I would be able to.
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post #8841 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

Apparently the actual problem is the firmware doesn't compensate properly for panel aging and the black level rises.

If this were true, why wouldn't Panasonic simply release an updated firmware to correct the problem?
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post #8842 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 01:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by John Kramer View Post

we've gotta get to the bottom of how we could reset our a-boards - at whatever way works. It's definitive; in order to 'solve' the black level issue - it's all we've got to figure out.

I've just got off the phone with a third party repair technician who advised me he can restore the black level by using the Panasonic software on a laptop connected to the A-board. I begged him to send me the software but he couldn't do it as it belongs to Panasonic (fair enough I said). I then begged for any information he could provide to lead us in the right direction, but was told he couldn't give out anything in that regard. My only option is to pay the callout fee for him to do the reset himself. I was told the job would not be covered by warranty as Panasonic doesn't consider it a fault.

I'm considering going ahead with it as a before and after shapshot of the memory should reveal which parameters he changes.
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post #8843 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue View Post

I've just got off the phone with a third party repair technician who advised me he can restore the black level by using the Panasonic software on a laptop connected to the A-board. I begged him to send me the software but he couldn't do it as it belongs to Panasonic (fair enough I said). I then begged for any information he could provide to lead us in the right direction, but was told he couldn't give out anything in that regard. My only option is to pay the callout fee for him to do the reset himself. I was told the job would not be covered by warranty as Panasonic doesn't consider it a fault.

I'm considering going ahead with it as a before and after shapshot of the memory should reveal which parameters he changes.

If I remeber right you do not live in the US, correct?

I wonder if repair technicians in the US are willing to come out and "reset" the firmware on the A-boards as well and what the cost would be. Panasonic should fix this , but are there owners who would be willing to pay to have this done?
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post #8844 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

If I remeber right you do not live in the US, correct?...

If everyone would include location information in their profile, we wouldn't have this problem. It's not like we're gonna hunt you down and steal your greyed-out TV!

Panny Plasma Junkie: TC-P50VT20, TC-P50G15, TH-42PX60U
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post #8845 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

1) If this were/is a viable solution, and
2) If professional calibrators have access to the software,

then

3) Why did D-NICE never even mention this as a possible fix (or did he)?

just curious...
..dane

As much as he knows he doesn't know everything about the units involved... Like I'm pretty sure he's doesn't know what instruction set the processor uses in the board were talking about. Or how to even write/compile the flash for the unit...

Way earlier in the thread I mentioned using a JTAG and fixing the issue. And I'm no Panasonic expert. Anyone who's in the electronic industry would know if there's still a JTAG on the board you can usually connect in dump,modify & reflash the code. Amongst other things... also do some debugging.

Even if there isn't a jtag; you can usually make some small board modifications and dump the flash and reprogram. Unless the company took precautions and the chip had a fusible link in it making this effort futile. And the code in the flash permanent.

-SiGGy
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post #8846 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

If I remeber right you do not live in the US, correct?

I wonder if repair technicians in the US are willing to come out and "reset" the firmware on the A-boards as well and what the cost would be. Panasonic should fix this , but are there owners who would be willing to pay to have this done?

The smart thing to be done here if you can reflash the code via the interface is to disassemble the code and review/document it. If it still has all of the symbol information it'll make figuring out what call is doing the voltage increase easier. And you can modify the algorithm.

This would be a permanent solution, and one that could be publicly shared. As well it could be another selling thing for some of the calibrators to do.

Does anyone have the flash file for the board?

A "reset" of the board via that interface, may not be re-flashing it. It may simply be resetting some memory locations back to factory settings. In that case you might be stuck resetting it frequently.

-SiGGy
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post #8847 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 08:35 AM
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We can use any terminal emulation software. I have confirmed this with a calibrator. But we would need to know the "reset" codes
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post #8848 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 08:58 AM
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Hi all.

I've been lurking around, reading every post, as it seems my TV (50V10) has it's blacks... greyed

Today, a technical Panasonic team has been at my place.
They were very nice and understanding, except that they appreciate the TV as being perfectly normal.

It has a bit more than 3000 hours; it was bought on Dec as a 2 week ex-demo, and I've put 500-600 hrs on it. I don't know how it got those extra 2000 hours on it, as the shop (Mediamarkt) has the proof it was there for a week and something!!!!

The problem is: I want to prove that it has the MLL issue, and so I need to get data.
As such I was thinking about buying a colorimeter / ... , basically something that could read luminance from blacks (0 IRE?)
Also, if possible, that would be used to calibrate my plasma TV.

By now, I was looking into
* Spyder3 TV
* I1 Display LT

My field of knowledge is way out from TVs, calibrations, etc... so... can anyone help me choosing a cheap(ish) device that can accomplish this?

Many thanks in advance!
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post #8849 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 09:37 AM
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This is just too much. We are reduced to finding a solution ourselves to what is clearly a product flaw, and yet the flap over another new product gets national exposure...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/mobile/....html?hpt=Sbin

I know that this is for the iPhone, but it is the exact same scenario as Panny's stance. Why can't we get the same exposure?

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post #8850 of 11404 Old 06-30-2010, 09:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

If I remeber right you do not live in the US, correct?

That's right, I'm from Australia.
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