Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 11477 Old 08-08-2009, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by battousai147 View Post

Orta (or Dnice for that matter), i was wondering something. I am sure you know what ghosting is, or at least this is how i refer to it, when you have a bright image on the screen for a few moments then go to a completely black screen you can still see a very faint outline of the image, i guess this would technically be IR. I wonder if this is occuring on a much larger scale on these sets. I have been using the set for about 10 to 12 hrs straight today, kids watching tv, of course myself, plus a little hard core gaming, buy any case just a bit ago i decided to put up a completely black image, its one that is off of the break in images, and bam the black level is lighter again, i also poped in a bluray just to confirm, i tried the reset this time but still the same.

My question that im finally getting to is this, after having the set on so long, could the black level be lighter because of a residual charge built up just like ghosting, this time over the entire screen where i had been using the set all day with out a break. while i had the set on it stayed in thx mode. Im just trying to get a better understanding of what exactly is happening here. Im sure if my terminology is incorrect or my tech speak is off someone will be happy to jump in and correct it, but the general point still stands. could this be causing the black levels to appear lighter?????????????????

I think something like that would probably be the theory behind the gradual changes over a longer period of time (like people's experiences with some of the earlier model lines). It wouldn't explain away my issue though (doubled within a week and a half at ~350 total panel hours).
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post #62 of 11477 Old 08-08-2009, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I think something like that would probably be the theory behind the gradual changes over a longer period of time (like people's experiences with some of the earlier model lines). It wouldn't explain away my issue though (doubled within a week and a half at ~350 total panel hours).

yeah, im sure your right, just fishing i guess, trying to get as much info as possible about the problem, it's a bit iritating and the panny techs are going to have a hard time of seeing the issue and getting it resolved..IMO...... anyway i left the set off for a while and then turned it back on and the lighter blacks were still evident, so i guess there went that genius theory i came up with..
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post #63 of 11477 Old 08-10-2009, 10:23 AM
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I have a p50g10. It has about 200 hours. Currently, it seems to still be showing the low mll (0.008-0.010fL). I'm not sure, of course: this is based only on my eyes and what I have read here. I have no instruments.

When the unit powers on, it goes through the cycle that Orta, I think, described: it starts out as a bright gray but then settles in to a fairly dark black.

Here is my question: would it help anyone here if I videotaped this sequence? Maybe it is something that could be shown to a tech if a G10 unit is NOT settling into the 0.008 levels. Let me know and I will try it. Not sure how well the digi camera would pick up the differences in blacks, though.
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post #64 of 11477 Old 08-10-2009, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaken134 View Post

I have a p50g10. It has about 200 hours. Currently, it seems to still be showing the low mll (0.008-0.010fL). I'm not sure, of course: this is based only on my eyes and what I have read here. I have no instruments.

When the unit powers on, it goes through the cycle that Orta, I think, described: it starts out as a bright gray but then settles in to a fairly dark black.

Here is my question: would it help anyone here if I videotaped this sequence? Maybe it is something that could be shown to a tech if a G10 unit is NOT settling into the 0.008 levels. Let me know and I will try it. Not sure how well the digi camera would pick up the differences in blacks, though.

No need for that I don't think. Keep a close eye on your panel though, particularly around the 350 hour mark. I'm almost positive that's the point mine changed. For your own benefit, it may be useful for you to get a snap shot of your black levels while they're good (assuming you can get them to show up on your camera). You can then take another pic if they change for comparison, just try to duplicate settings, distance, environment/ambient lighting as exacting as possible.
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post #65 of 11477 Old 08-10-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

No need for that I don't think. Keep a close eye on your panel though, particularly around the 350 hour mark. I'm almost positive that's the point mine changed. For your own benefit, it may be useful for you to get a snap shot of your black levels while they're good (assuming you can get them to show up on your camera). You can then take another pic if they change for comparison, just try to duplicate settings, distance, environment/ambient lighting as exacting as possible.

Have you had any luck getting a Panasonic service technician to come over and look at it?
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post #66 of 11477 Old 08-10-2009, 04:51 PM
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Another question: I had my g10 calibrated by Chad B. After the calibration, it seems as though the hour-meter was reset. It read 120 or so before he came and now it's at about 70. Does this sound right? If so: is it possible that an occasional re-zero to the hour-meter could keep the MLL spike from occurring? And, what action in the service menu causes an hour-meter reset?
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post #67 of 11477 Old 08-10-2009, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by blaken134 View Post

Another question: I had my g10 calibrated by Chad B. After the calibration, it seems as though the hour-meter was reset. It read 120 or so before he came and now it's at about 70. Does this sound right? If so: is it possible that an occasional re-zero to the hour-meter could keep the MLL spike from occurring? And, what action in the service menu causes an hour-meter reset?

That doesn't sound quite right. Perhaps you should ask Chad himself since you noticed this post-calibration. I would think the only reason the meter would be reset was if the PDP itself was replaced. If it reset itself it's no longer an useful number.
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post #68 of 11477 Old 08-11-2009, 08:10 AM
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To those who noticed the black level spike, could you check those blacks up close to see if they have any dither? I have noticed that once the brightness level of the display goes above the black level of the display and starts to brighten the black bars, they begin to dither.... I am just wondering if this is happening on the G10 models that have had their black levels elevate.

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post #69 of 11477 Old 08-11-2009, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Have you had any luck getting a Panasonic service technician to come over and look at it?

Not yet, haven't had time to mess with it.

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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

To those who noticed the black level spike, could you check those blacks up close to see if they have any dither? I have noticed that once the brightness level of the display goes above the black level of the display and starts to brighten the black bars, they begin to dither.... I am just wondering if this is happening on the G10 models that have had their black levels elevate.

Nope, the blacks are solid, no dithering at all.
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post #70 of 11477 Old 08-11-2009, 08:58 AM
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Dithering? Are we really looking for dithering or activaiton level noise or error diffusion? Dithering has a very specific meaning and I know of no applications for it in the blacks in PDPs.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #71 of 11477 Old 08-11-2009, 09:13 AM
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Dithering? Are we really looking for dithering or activaiton level noise or error diffusion? Dithering has a very specific meaning and I know of no applications for it in the blacks in PDPs.

You missed my point, when the black levels rise beyond the absolute black that the TV can display, they start to dither as they move into the realm of the color grey, try this on any Panasonic plasma, raise the brightness setting while watching a movie with black bars, keep raising it until the black bars get lighter, and look close, they will go from being noise free to having noticeable dither noise in them, the higher you raise it, them more noise will be visible. (up to a point)

I just wanted to see if the sets with an elevated black level were showing dither because of this, but since they aren't it doesn't have anything to do with a brightness error or anything like that.

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post #72 of 11477 Old 08-11-2009, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Dithering? Are we really looking for dithering or activaiton level noise or error diffusion? Dithering has a very specific meaning and I know of no applications for it in the blacks in PDPs.

We're just speaking in generalities, as this is what myself and probably most people here are familiar with and would refer to it as. I'm sure it is not the technical terminology, but it is what Pend is describing.
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post #73 of 11477 Old 08-18-2009, 07:28 PM
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Any news on this or anyone else experiencing it?

It's stupid but I'm getting a little paranoid about my tv's black level. It seems more grey to me but maybe I'm imagining things
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post #74 of 11477 Old 08-20-2009, 10:03 AM
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I think my p50g10 may have finally made the leap to the elevated black levels. I've had the set for about 3 months and I noticed the change yesterday. I can only tell when the room is black and there is a blank screen with no signal coming through. I can't tell when there is any kind of programming on.

As Orta, I think, said, there now seems to be a 3-stage black-level showcase when the set comes on. First: bright grey. Then: very dark (for just a split second) and then: slightly grey, which is where it settles. A few days ago this was just a two-stage process.

I think I can live with it, if this is indeed the final MLL. I sure would like to hear the reason, though, and I would especially like to hear about a fix!
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post #75 of 11477 Old 08-20-2009, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaken134 View Post

I think my p50g10 may have finally made the leap to the elevated black levels. I've had the set it about 3 months and I noticed the change yesterday. I can only tell when the room is black and there is a blank screen with no signal coming through. I can't tell when there is any kind of programming on.

As Orta, I think, said, there now seems to be a 3-stage black-level showcase when the set comes on. First: bright grey. Then: very dark (for just a split second) and then: slightly grey, which is where it settles. A few days ago this was just a two-stage process.

I think I can live with it, if this is indeed the final MLL. I sure would like to hear the reason, though, and I would especially like to hear about a fix!

Did you measure the MLL? I'm curious to see how much it increased.
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post #76 of 11477 Old 08-20-2009, 10:25 AM
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Did you measure the MLL? I'm curious to see how much it increased.

No, I am just using my eyes, so I could very well be seeing things.
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post #77 of 11477 Old 08-20-2009, 10:48 AM
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I would trust my eyes if I were you, since many have reported this issue and Tom Huffman was even able to verify it for some Panasonics (including PZ85's) with reference-grade meters.
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post #78 of 11477 Old 08-20-2009, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I think my p50g10 may have finally made the leap to the elevated black levels. I've had the set for about 3 months and I noticed the change yesterday. I can only tell when the room is black and there is a blank screen with no signal coming through. I can't tell when there is any kind of programming on.

As Orta, I think, said, there now seems to be a 3-stage black-level showcase when the set comes on. First: bright grey. Then: very dark (for just a split second) and then: slightly grey, which is where it settles. A few days ago this was just a two-stage process.

I think I can live with it, if this is indeed the final MLL. I sure would like to hear the reason, though, and I would especially like to hear about a fix!

Are you comfortable enough with the SM to check your hour count Blaken? Does Chad B. do follow up visits?
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post #79 of 11477 Old 08-20-2009, 07:09 PM
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Are you comfortable enough with the SM to check your hour count Blaken? Does Chad B. do follow up visits?

Time: 90:20, Count 170, but must not be accurate, since the time read apx 120 hours just before before pro calibration
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post #80 of 11477 Old 09-14-2009, 08:17 AM
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Well, after having the Panasonic tech out to check my set for another issue, my black levels have definitally elevated. the only trigger that I can think off is accessing the service menu, because I noticed it just hours after he left. I have another call into the tech to see what is up with this and if he could get some answers from the higher ups.

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post #81 of 11477 Old 09-14-2009, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Well, after having the Panasonic tech out to check my set for another issue, my black levels have definitally elevated. the only trigger that I can think off is accessing the service menu, because I noticed it just hours after he left. I have another call into the tech to see what is up with this and if he could get some answers from the higher ups.

That's kinda odd it happened right after, could just be coincidence. Are you able to check your hour count on the panel? Let us know what they tell you.
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post #82 of 11477 Old 09-14-2009, 12:23 PM
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That's kinda odd it happened right after, could just be coincidence. Are you able to check your hour count on the panel? Let us know what they tell you.

Checking the hour count entails entering the service menu....

The tech is coming back out Wednesday to try replacing the A board, not sure that will work though.

(and yes, this happened right after the service menu was accessed for the first time on my 54g10, and I am pretty sure that this also happened on my previous 54g10 as well after the tech got in there)

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post #83 of 11477 Old 09-14-2009, 02:28 PM
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Checking the hour count entails entering the service menu....

The tech is coming back out Wednesday to try replacing the A board, not sure that will work though.

(and yes, this happened right after the service menu was accessed for the first time on my 54g10, and I am pretty sure that this also happened on my previous 54g10 as well after the tech got in there)

I have about 190 hrs on my set and i have accessed the service menu lots of times to try Orta's and Jefflackey's G10 SM offsets and to check hours used, my black levels have not elevated yet.

It seems that once you reach 300-350 hrs on the set the black levels change.
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post #84 of 11477 Old 09-14-2009, 02:37 PM
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It seems that once you reach 300-350 hrs on the set the black levels change.

If that is the only cause, then Panasonic will be hearing a lot from me about this because that is the same as false advertisement. If I didn't want the lower black levels of the Panny's, I would have gotten a Samsung plasma instead. To have the black levels rise like this after several hundred hours would be like a car being advertised to run at 50mpg and then drop to 25mpg after only a month.

I'll have the tech check my hours when he comes out on Wednesday.

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post #85 of 11477 Old 09-17-2009, 10:20 AM
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Alright, the Panasonic tech replaced the "A" board, which caused a factory reset, which reset the hour count, and reset my black levels back to normal.

This is an intentional change at a certain hour marker, and is complete BS.

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post #86 of 11477 Old 09-17-2009, 11:36 AM
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Combined with the color issues of the 2009 Panasonics, this programmed rise in blacks makes a solid argument for the 2009 Samsungs.

My 2008 PZ80 is just under 2,000 hours and I don't think black levels have risen on it; however, the black levels were never very low to begin with, considering a spec of 20,000:1 native contrast.
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post #87 of 11477 Old 09-17-2009, 11:40 AM
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Combined with the color issues of the 2009 Panasonics, this programmed rise in blacks makes a solid argument for the 2009 Samsungs.

My 2008 PZ80 is just under 2,000 hours and I don't think black levels have risen on it; however, the black levels were never very low to begin with, considering a spec of 20,000:1 native contrast.

When my blacks rise again, I'll give the tech another call, he is a field service rep for Panasonic, he doesn't work for a repair company, he works for Panasonic direct so he should be able to get something done about this.

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post #88 of 11477 Old 09-17-2009, 11:48 AM
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When my blacks rise again, I'll give the tech another call, he is a field service rep for Panasonic, he doesn't work for a repair company, he works for Panasonic direct so he should be able to get something done about this.

Did he comment at all about this issue?
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post #89 of 11477 Old 09-17-2009, 11:59 AM
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Did he comment at all about this issue?

Not really, but he did make a note of it.

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post #90 of 11477 Old 09-17-2009, 12:01 PM
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I have around 400 hrs on the tv and from the past week I am noticing the black level is not as good as it was when the tv was new. I don't have pictures or anything to prove it, but I believe my eyes. I have accessed the SM many times to adjust cuts and drvs.
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