Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 11430 Old 12-19-2009, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killayaw View Post

Okay, just tested this on mine. Mine goes through the 3 gradations, but the 3rd is only slightly darker than the 2nd. There isn't much a difference between the 2nd and 3rd gradations.

Yeah, the 3rd gradation on my G15 is also very close to the 2nd level, unlike the 1st level of gray which is much brighter. Can anyone else confirm this on a "normal", deep black G10 or G15?
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post #902 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 01:57 PM
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Mine (EU model) goes through 4 gradations, but 4th seems as dark as 3rd. Theres maybe a fifth gradation when theres channel information box displaying for a second before picture comes.
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post #903 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L7R View Post

Mine (EU model) goes through 4 gradations, but 4th seems as dark as 3rd. Theres maybe a fifth gradation when theres channel information box displaying for a second before picture comes.

Interesting. So, your EU version goes through FOUR gradations. Would you say that your set displays dark blacks and has not been affected by the black level doubling issue?
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post #904 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Interesting. So, your EU version goes through FOUR gradations. Would you say that your set displays dark blacks and has not been affected by the black level doubling issue?

Yes four, but I cannot tell if 3rd and 4th has any difference in black level. Maybe it just flashes rapidly from off and on?
And yes, my G10 has gray blacks too. I've described my case here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17696413
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post #905 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L7R View Post

Yes four, but I cannot tell if 3rd and 4th has any difference in black level. Maybe it just flashes rapidly from off and on?
And yes, my G10 has gray blacks too. I've described my case here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17696413

My 2nd and 3rd gradations seem to have something of a "flash" that separates them so the change in brightness level is harder to discern. Frankly the 2nd and 3rd gradations look the same on my set.
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post #906 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 07:39 PM
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Does anyone know of a (relatively inexpensive) instrument to measure screen brightness? I would love to quantify the level of brightness of my "black" screen.

Price aside, what would my options be?

I've seen some mention of a Spyder (Spider)?

Thanks for your input!
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post #907 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Does anyone know of a (relatively inexpensive) instrument to measure screen brightness? I would love to quantify the level of brightness of my "black" screen.

Price aside, what would my options be?

I've seen some mention of a Spyder (Spider)?

Thanks for your input!

Eye-one display LT is on sale at Amazon. $124 or so. Good for low level readings without spending big bucks, I think. I use it for calibration and I like it a lot. The cheap sub 100 dollar Spyder is said to be a poor performer for dark readings and more inconsistent from unit to unit.
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post #908 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Eye-one display LT is on sale at Amazon. $124 or so. Good for low level readings without spending big bucks, I think. I use it for calibration and I like it a lot. The cheap sub 100 dollar Spyder is said to be a poor performer for dark readings and more inconsistent from unit to unit.

Thanks for the recommendation! I may in fact get this, for the brightness measurement, as well as calibrating my computer monitor.

What is the ideal brightness that the g10/g15 should be emanating on a black screen? .008 foot lamberts?

Thanks!
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post #909 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Thanks for the recommendation! I may in fact get this, for the brightness measurement, as well as calibrating my computer monitor.

What is the ideal brightness that the g10/g15 should be emanating on a black screen? .008 foot lamberts?

Thanks!

We, all of us, should be so lucky.

Typical very good values for any plasma (Kuro excluded) would be 0.010 to 0.014 ftL.

Larry
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post #910 of 11430 Old 12-20-2009, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

We, all of us, should be so lucky.

Typical very good values for any plasma (Kuro excluded) would be 0.010 to 0.014 ftL.

Larry

Thanks for offering realistic numbers to hope for!
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post #911 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 04:05 AM
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I'm using a Spyder2, which as said isn't consistent when doing 0 IRE measurements. But when I do a constant reading instead of a measurement it seems to work well. I'm getting between .009-.010 on my TC-P50G10.

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post #912 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

We, all of us, should be so lucky.

Typical very good values for any plasma (Kuro excluded) would be 0.010 to 0.014 ftL.

Larry

Larry, you've had many plasmas. This year's plasmas, do they look any more grey than previous years? I love my X1 for the most part but when there are dimly lit scenes, credits, etc. . . the thing looks grey, not black but grey. Is this your experience? Now that your X1. jumped up to .024 FTL do you feel this is an issue or still in the realm of normal?
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post #913 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 12:38 PM
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Anyone have a way a semi-pro DSLR could be used? Knowing ISO, aperture and shutter speed, I imagine it's theoretically possible. Calibration quality.... who knows, but it might give a baseline.

Anyone have ideas on how to do this? I would need help with the math in getting from the photo's gray value to a FL value.

- Brian

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

Does anyone know of a (relatively inexpensive) instrument to measure screen brightness? I would love to quantify the level of brightness of my "black" screen.

Price aside, what would my options be?

I've seen some mention of a Spyder (Spider)?

Thanks for your input!

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post #914 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 12:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthrojohn View Post

My 2nd and 3rd gradations seem to have something of a "flash" that separates them so the change in brightness level is harder to discern. Frankly the 2nd and 3rd gradations look the same on my set.

I checked mine again and my 2nd gradation and 3rd is the same thing. With no input, my screen is a dark grey, not black, like it's glowing with a backlight.
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post #915 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 02:50 PM
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cool ...the issue is obvious to more panasonic users and maybe all of you call panasonic and complain about this problem . Maybe maybe the Chinese or Japanese engineers will come up with a fix
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post #916 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris100 View Post

I checked mine again and my 2nd gradation and 3rd is the same thing. With no input, my screen is a dark grey, not black, like it's glowing with a backlight.

Chris - the screen should look grey with no input. You have to input the color black to check your black levels.

A good quick check would be an HD channel that is only showing 4:3 content. The black bars to the sides should look black. On my V10, these will show up just a shade brighter than the surround on the set.

David Freeman
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post #917 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 09:14 PM
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Choosing between the S1 & G10 (much much reading)

Have any of the S1 series have had an issue with their black levels rising???

(I just resolved my question about the THX issue, NOW I read about the G10 black levels ). That S1 may be the answer (?)
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post #918 of 11430 Old 12-21-2009, 10:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

Chris - the screen should look grey with no input. You have to input the color black to check your black levels.

A good quick check would be an HD channel that is only showing 4:3 content. The black bars to the sides should look black. On my V10, these will show up just a shade brighter than the surround on the set.

My 4:3 on HD are like a dark blackish grey. Now example, if someone is wearing a black suit, then yes it is black, is that a good comparison?
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post #919 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

Chris - the screen should look grey with no input. You have to input the color black to check your black levels.

A good quick check would be an HD channel that is only showing 4:3 content. The black bars to the sides should look black. On my V10, these will show up just a shade brighter than the surround on the set.

no you're wrong here.... no input should display the darkest black panel can reproduce.
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post #920 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

no you're wrong here.... no input should display the darkest black panel can reproduce.

Yep, a blank input displays the same black levels as a pure black SD card slide, and the black bars of a movie. I should be getting my V10 soon (probably the first of next week) and I plan on setting them up side by side just so the tech can see the difference, but I do know that my G10's blacks aren't as light as they were after the first jump, so it might not be as dramatic as some of the other G10 units.

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post #921 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

Just as the two technicians over the phone assumed, the Panasonic rep immediately concluded that it was a calibration issue. He sent the tech into the advanced picture options to change the black level from "light" to "dark."

This is an interesting comment.

Panasonic is recommending the use of "Black Level: dark"...
while most people on AVS seem to be using CO1's setting where "black level: light"

Is all this complaining about light blacks because we configured it that way ;-) ??

Since the option of "black level dark" is available, it seems to me panasonic expects blacks to get light at some point... so that option is there for that day...
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post #922 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

This is an interesting comment.

Panasonic is recommending the use of "Black Level: dark"...
while most people on AVS seem to be using CO1's setting where "black level: light"

Is all this complaining about light blacks because we configured it that way ;-) ??

Since the option of "black level dark" is available, it seems to me panasonic expects blacks to get light at some point... so that option is there for that day...

All setting it to "Dark" does is crush shadow details, it has no effect on black levels at all.

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post #923 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 08:10 AM
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From my experience with my 10g and 11g panels, the 'dark' black level crushes blacks to hell. I think it shifts Gamma to something much less than ideal.
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post #924 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 08:58 AM
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Do blacks stay crushed if the panel brightness is turned up or gamma higher in the advanced settings ?

Maybe this if a v10 only feature.
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post #925 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Do blacks stay crushed if the panel brightness is turned up or gamma higher in the advanced settings ?

Maybe this if a v10 only feature.

If you crank the brightness up to 100 then it is pretty close to the light setting with brightness around 60 (just a guess based on my old 42px75, I never tried it with the G10 because the dark setting is a useless feature) It has absolutely ZERO effect on the actual black levels of the panel. )Unless you have the brightness setting cranked up really high with the "light" setting, which would raise the set's black levels, but you would have activation noise in the blacks if that was the case) The service techs doing this have no clue what they are doing. (but odds are it will satisfy many of the uninformed consumers)

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post #926 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 09:54 AM
 
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i have the same problem with the black level a tech replace the a-board today but still looks the same dark grey i bough the tv on 4/1/09 brand new and i dont think is the a-board because i still have the same issue can anyone tell me what board need to be replace because a-board is not the problem...

sorry for my english...
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post #927 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdielito View Post

i have the same problem with the black level a tech replace the a-board today but still looks the same dark grey i bough the tv on 4/1/09 brand new and i dont think is the a-board because i still have the same issue can anyone tell me what board need to be replace because a-board is not the problem...

sorry for my english...

At this point, the majority of people have reported that the A-board replacement did nothing. A full on panel replacement seems to be the only other reported fix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

Do blacks stay crushed if the panel brightness is turned up or gamma higher in the advanced settings ?

Maybe this if a v10 only feature.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter one way or the other. The "Dark" and "Light" settings have no effect on the MLL whatsoever. They're just banking on the perception from crushed shadow detail getting complainers off their back.
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post #928 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 10:44 AM
 
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Thanks Cristian and Pendragoon. I am officially now a member of 'Club Double'.
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post #929 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 11:23 AM
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I realize this is the G10 thread, but I recently purchased an S1, and while I was watching the latest Harry Potter movie, the brightness/luminance of the set seemed to suddenly "jump." Now, I don't think I'm losing my mind here, as the black bars seemed to suddenly become brighter during the movie..

To note, I didn't "break-in" my set, and this occurred around the 100hr mark. Perhaps the firmware has preset points where it raises the brightness/luminance of the set? Perhaps during the "break-in" period Panasonic keeps the display a little dimmer to prevent burn in? I'm not sure what the reason is, but the display most certainly appears to be a little brighter now. Hopefully it doesn't get any brighter.. Just wanted to report that perhaps this is happening on many panasonic displays..?
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post #930 of 11430 Old 12-22-2009, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdielito View Post

im a little confused after the replacement of the a-board my sm hd factory setting change from this
R-CUT--81 to this R-CUT--80
G-CUT--7F to this G-CUT--80
B-CUT--80 to this B-CUT--80
R-DRV--ED to this R-DRV--FC
G DRV--FC to this G-DRV--F8
B-DRV--B2 to this B-DRV--D9
ALL CUT-81 to this ALL CUT-80
ALL DRV FC to this ALL DRV F-C

do i have to change it to the sm setting that have before or just leave it like that.

orta i think i would have to deal with the gray black level and use a ambient light and forget about it because replacing the panel maybe won't change anything

TCP50G10 A-BOARD PART# TXN/A1DWUUS

i just had my a-board replaced as well but for the THX issue on the G10/V10 sets and the new values on it are the same as yours. Is that for the normal color temp or warm? i have those exact same values on the normal color temp on my set.
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