Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 310 - AVS Forum
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post #9271 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

So what are the "cons" of one of the 2010 models? I've heard something about "floating blacks" but I thought I read that has been fixed too? Wonder if it's about time to try and get a trade-in? I've always dismissed the idea since I was under the impression that a 2010 while less obvious, would still rise just as much over time..

..dane

I'm doubting that the new 2010's will rise nearly as early. I mean, even if its at 2000 hours, and its dragged way out, then its not really a problem with me. My gut tells me (and D-Nices comments) that I'd guess that blacks won't even begin to rise until 3-4000 hours, and it would obviously take more than 2000 hours to fully rise given data on the 09 models, so maybe its 10,000 hours before we see a full rise? Of course this is all speculation.
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post #9272 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:42 PM
 
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If you block the screen out, and focus on the bars, during a letterbox movie, you will see some fluctuation. What it does, in darker scenes gets itself darker, and in lighter scenes lightens up a bit. During dark scenes in a movie, the screen is inky black, so I dont notice it. I've not noticed floating blacks within the picture. The fluctuating black on the letterbox bars reminds me of a LED LCD with Local Dimming, but not NEAR as bad. If you weren't looking for it, you may not notice, and to be honest, I dont look at the bars when Im watching a movie
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post #9273 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

If you block the screen out, and focus on the bars, during a letterbox movie, you will see some fluctuation. What it does, in darker scenes gets itself darker, and in lighter scenes lightens up a bit. During dark scenes in a movie, the screen is inky black, so I dont notice it. I've not noticed floating blacks within the picture. The fluctuating black on the letterbox bars reminds me of a LED LCD with Local Dimming, but not NEAR as bad. If you weren't looking for it, you may not notice, and to be honest, I dont look at the bars when Im watching a movie

Agree with you here, although on some scenes that have a gradual increase in light, you can notice all of a sudden the bars brightening up quickly, and thats without focusing on them at least for me. It doesn't really bother me though
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post #9274 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:44 PM
 
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I think the 2009 model was a goof in aggression, and doesnt seem to effect all sizes or models the same.

I wasnt concerned one bit about a rise when buying this 2010. Panny makes a great, reliable tv, that always produces a good picture. Blacks are getting to a point of diminishing returns (I think manufactures are more concerned now with web apps and slimness than improving PQ). I dont expect a Kuro, I paid $1500 for a 58" tv
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post #9275 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Agree with you here, although on some scenes that have a gradual increase in light, you can notice all of a sudden the bars brightening up quickly, and thats without focusing on them at least for me. It doesn't really bother me though


Black to white is more noticeable. I wonder if they lower voltage for darker scenes to get more black, but then it has to ramp up for the white scenes. Not a problem to me, because you tend to see lighter color bars as more black on a bright scene anyways, but the big swing is noticeable. I found myself looking for it out of curiosity, then I quit worrying about it. I watch movies in the dark, with the back light, so it does stand out. I dont see it in a lit room.

I just watched the Crazies, and some of the night shots had sections of the screen, where the sky was blank, that were just INKY black. My 2008 could not do that.

My only real complaint about Panny, is the lack of a CMS. I bought the DVDO to combat this, and future tv's. Every tv ive owned had some sort of issue you could not work out with the service menu.
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post #9276 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

I think the 2009 model was a goof in aggression, and doesnt seem to effect all sizes or models the same.

I wasnt concerned one bit about a rise when buying this 2010. Panny makes a great, reliable tv, that always produces a good picture. Blacks are getting to a point of diminishing returns (I think manufactures are more concerned now with web apps and slimness than improving PQ). I dont expect a Kuro, I paid $1500 for a 58" tv

Yeah, I have the attitude that rising blacks (2010 April +) are a non-issue for me at this point, especially if a full fix is issued in 2011. I don't plan on keeping any TV for more than 3-4 years, and the rising blacks would prob just be barely kicking in by then with the 2010 Pannys.

I will say that at approx 1250 hours on my 58S1, my blacks are NOT even double my 42G25. I'd say and this is a guess, that knowing my 42G25 is .008, that my S1 is around .012. Noticeably brighter, but not as much as I thought. I've compared pictures of my S1 from 540 hours, and my Blacks look identical, even after comparing meticulously in photo editing software.
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post #9277 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Black to white is more noticeable. I wonder if they lower voltage for darker scenes to get more black, but then it has to ramp up for the white scenes. Not a problem to me, because you tend to see lighter color bars as more black on a bright scene anyways, but the big swing is noticeable. I found myself looking for it out of curiosity, then I quit worrying about it.

I just watched the Crazies, and some of the night shots had sections of the screen, where the sky was blank, that were just INKY black. My 2008 could not do that.

My only real complaint about Panny, is the lack of a CMS.

THere is a voltage control now, set to low or high, in the SM. So you might be right on that one, it has to be an increase/decrease in voltage because that is what controls black level without dithering.
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post #9278 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:51 PM
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I dispute the claim that the 2008 models were affected.

My px60u measured about 0.033 ftL
My px75u measured about 0.024 ftL
Both my px80u's measured about 0.016 ftL

They did not seem to change over the year I had each of them. (The 2008 px80u's were carefully measured with a meter over the 1500 hours of use that I had them.)


Both my X1s started out at about 0.014 ftL and now they both are at about 0.022 ftL. That's not three times. That's not even two times. These measurements were taken at about 200 hours and 4000 hours respectively. The instrument used was my i1 LT profiled with my certified i1 Pro.


Maybe next year I'll buy a couple of 2011 Panasonic models -- if they resolve the floating black issue. If not, maybe I'll try a different manufacturer. (My px75u had the floating blacks and I'll take the rising black level over that anytime.)

Larry
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post #9279 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

THere is a voltage control now, set to low or high, in the SM. So you might be right on that one, it has to be an increase/decrease in voltage because that is what controls black level without dithering.


IIRC, these are side effects of the Real Black Drive and Infinite Black.

Ive also seen guys say floating blacks have been around for a long time, but I guess I never noticed.
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post #9280 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

IIRC, these are side effects of the Real Black Drive and Infinite Black.

Ive also seen guys say floating blacks have been around for a long time, but I guess I never noticed.

Yeah, never noticed any floating on my S1. Its just the IR is killing me on that set. Its really distracting in dark movie scenes
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post #9281 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

I find it funny that you guys take Dnice's word over anyone else.

um, it's not D-Nice. We now have three separate sources independently corroborating what he reported -- CNet measurements, users on the forum doing their own measurements, and PANASONIC'S OWN ADMISSION.

pretty weak on your part to just accuse people of being lemmings.

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It's not the rise thats the FUD, its the 3x's original in 2000 hours. FUD.

so is it just the specificity of the 3X claim that bothers you? I'm cool with that, I would agree that there's not overwhelming evidence that all sets will be affecting in such a precise matter.

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post #9282 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:02 PM
 
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IR seems worse than the 2008 model. Might be related to the NEO PDP panels.
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post #9283 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Both my X1s started out at about 0.014 ftL and now they both are at about 0.022 ftL. That's not three times. That's not even two times.

as with the above, is it just the specificity of the 3X thing that bothers you? I think it's pretty clear that older models rise also. your own measurements support this idea -- PX60/600 models were measured at 0.012-0.014 in initial reviews.

are you questioning the idea that they rise at all, or just the 3X thing?

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post #9284 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

as with the above, is it just the specificity of the 3X thing that bothers you? I think it's pretty clear that older models rise also. your own measurements support this idea -- PX60/600 models were measured at 0.012-0.014 in initial reviews.

are you questioning the idea that they rise at all, or just the 3X thing?


Batpig, it's the magnitude of the rise in both the 2008 and 2009 models. The magnitude 3X has been used as though it is a physical constant. There is no evidence for that -- as your own collected data shows.

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post #9285 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:13 PM
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I would agree with that then. the 3X figure is definitely thrown around a bit too much as through it were consistently established.

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post #9286 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I dispute the claim that the 2008 models were affected.

My px60u measured about 0.033 ftL
My px75u measured about 0.024 ftL
Both my px80u's measured about 0.016 ftL

They did not seem to change over the year I had each of them. (The 2008 px80u's were carefully measured with a meter over the 1500 hours of use that I had them.)


Both my X1s started out at about 0.014 ftL and now they both are at about 0.022 ftL. That's not three times. That's not even two times. These measurements were taken at about 200 hours and 4000 hours respectively. The instrument used was my i1 LT profiled with my certified i1 Pro.


Maybe next year I'll buy a couple of 2011 Panasonic models -- if they resolve the floating black issue. If not, maybe I'll try a different manufacturer. (My px75u had the floating blacks and I'll take the rising black level over that anytime.)

Larry

Larry, which of those numbers HAVEN'T risen? Those are all risen MLL's to one degree or another. That PX60u is nearly a 3x rise
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post #9287 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:42 PM
 
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My px60u measured about 0.033 ftL
My px75u measured about 0.024 ftL
Both my px80u's measured about 0.016 ftL

He's stating these were what they were from the get go, and never changed. Makes sense, because the 08 85u was about 0.16 too.
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post #9288 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

Larry, which of those numbers HAVEN'T risen? Those are all risen MLL's to one degree or another. That PX60u is nearly a 3x rise

My first px60u black level reading taken after a few hundred hours was 0.030 ftL. My last px60u black level reading taken at about 1500 hours was 0.033 ftL. That's not three times!

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post #9289 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

I find it funny that you guys take Dnice's word over anyone else. Did you grow up with him, are you blood brothers? LEMMINGS, the forum is full of em. It's a forum people, do you know how much misinformation is here?? Some folks that post here about issues dont even OWN the sets.

You see the first replies to the latest Cnet results? "Panasonic sent them trojan horse models so they didnt rise"

Whatever. Most people, that have proof, or otherwise, speak in PM's, because they know what the FUD Zombies here will do to em.

You guys can say whatever you want. Buh bye.

Why don't you just outright (politely) ask D-Nice about all this? He's given out a lot of info on the Panny's and the black level rise over the last several months.

FWIW, I seem to recall him saying that sets manufactured after a certain point (April/May?) will have the voltage increases spaced further apart so that the average consumer wouldn't notice. I don't know if the exact hour number/timeframe has been revealed yet though.
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post #9290 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

My first px60u black level reading taken after a few hundred hours was 0.030 ftL. My last px60u black level reading taken at about 1500 hours was 0.033 ftL. That's not three times!

Larry

That seems awfully high for a PX60u. They, as Batpig said, were measured around .013 ftl.
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post #9291 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mustangs1 View Post

That seems awfully high for a PX60u. They, as Batpig said, were measured around .013 ftl.


Fine. Whatever you say. My readings are wrong since "they" say so. You win.

Larry
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post #9292 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:33 PM
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Fine. Whatever you say. My readings are wrong since "they" say so. You win.

Larry

I'm just saying they seem on the high side. So they HAVE risen. I'm not saying your readings are wrong. Maybe the rise happened before the first few hundred hours.
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post #9293 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:36 PM
 
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I'm surprised that a 2006 plasma would measure 0.013, and not 0.030. You sure thats correct?

Since when would a 2006 model have lower blacks than a 2008?
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post #9294 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:38 PM
 
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Measured contrast on the 60u was 788:1, I find it hard to believe it had 0.013.
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post #9295 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

I'm surprised that a 2006 plasma would measure 0.013, and not 0.030. You sure thats correct?

Since when would a 2006 model have lower blacks than a 2008?

Yes, they actually were. The 500u's were measured around .027,, so it was a big step up that year
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post #9296 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Measured contrast on the 60u was 788:1, I find it hard to believe it had 0.013.

Home theater measured the MLL at .012 for the 42600u... The increase in brightness is the reason for the jump in contrast. Panasonic has made no real stride in black level performance until this years VT series.
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post #9297 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:41 PM
 
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I'd like to see some data on that one.

edit: 60u, or 600u?
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post #9298 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

I'd like to see some data on that one.

edit: 60u, or 600u?

600u. Its the same TV minus SD slot and bezel difference
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post #9299 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:44 PM
 
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Nevermind, I see where the 60u 42" was 0.012 ft-L.
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post #9300 of 11257 Old 08-19-2010, 06:46 PM
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Nevermind, I see where the 60u 42" was 0.012 ft-L.

This is why its quite sad that the top of the line 2009 Panny ends up with WORSE black level than the equivalent 2006 model begins with
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