Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 343 - AVS Forum
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post #10261 of 11234 Old 11-11-2010, 12:51 PM
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Okay.

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post #10262 of 11234 Old 11-11-2010, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

Not the entire thread, just most of it. I the reason I read this thread is to look for those comments that offered good insite. Its just that you have to read thru a ton of BS and lies to get there.

What would you classify as BS and lies?
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post #10263 of 11234 Old 11-11-2010, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DevilsFan 24/7 View Post

Gentlemen,

Before I begin I would just like to say that I have ready the vast majority of this thread (to say all would be a lie). I have been very interested in seeing how this would play out because like most of you I have a personal interest at stake.

I do not claim to be a videophile nor do i claim to be an audiophile but I am a guy who can appreciate a nice man-cave.

I recently purchased a 65" Panasonic Plasmsa TC-P65S1. I'll be honest, I've never owned a plasma before and thought that it would be a nice step up in picture and in size from my 6 year old Toshiba 51" 51H84 rear projection HD set. I was able to get the Panasonic and BB's 4-year Black Tie protection plan for ~$1800.

After attempting to find some on-line calibration settings (just to get me through the break in period before having it professionally calibrated) I stumbled upon this thread and have been obsessed with it ever since. I received the TV on Friday (11/5) and will dare say that I've read 320 pages of this thread hoping to find a resolution to the rising black levels problem. The TV is brand new out of the box (not a display) so I have not experienced any rise in the blacks yet.....or at least none that I can tell.

In our living room we have a Samsung LN-52A650 LCD and when we purchased that I thought the picture was phenomenal compared to the rear projection Toshiba that we have in the basement.

After reading this thread, I turned off all of the lights in the living room and placed the TV on an input that was not receiving a signal and noticed the "glow". I seriously don't think that this would have bothered me until I stumbled upon this thread. It still doesn't bother me but I definitely notice it now.

I called 1-888-best-buy 5 times and got 5 different employees who all told me the same thing after I explained the problem......My service plan would cover the rising blacks, IR, and Burn-In. I was told that if I become unhappy with the picture anytime during the 4 year plan then two things could take place. 1) A service tech would be sent out to correct the problem (which from what I have read can't be fixed) or 2) I would be given a comparable 65" plasma TV.

My question is: Should I go with the deal that I got with the TC-P65S1 and the answers that I received from BB or should I just return it now (well within the 30 day return window) and just wait until the 2011 models are released. To me the picture looks great and if the black level rises to that of our Samsung LCD then I would still be happy given the fact that I am coming from rear projection TV.

My wife simply says to do what makes me happy but I would hate to end up with a set that I hate like I have heard many others on this thread state. I'm just looking for peace of mind.

Again, I am not here to upset, offend, annoy, or antagonize anyone....I am simply looking for your opinions. Hopefully someone will bring something to light that I may not have thought of thus helping me with my decision. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks

I have been keeping my mouth (posts) shut most of the time. Then people will just assume that I am ingorant instead of knowing it.

I have a 2009 V10 that definitely experienced the black level rise. I also have the four year BB replacement warranty. When my set was purchased in August of 2009 I had seen Orta's original post on this subject, but wrote it off to a one off performance issue. It was about four months and 1500 hours later when I first noticed the change in black level for my set. Although unhappy with the change, the picture is still better than my 2006 Panasonic plasma and that of Samsung and Sharp LCD's in other parts of my home.

I spoke with Best Buy's warranty people on the phone and in the store last March concerning the rise in black level and was told the same as you, that if my set has experienced performance degradation, it would be replaced under warranty. They asked if I wanted to schedule a service call for one of their technicians to verify the problem. Since there were no currently available sets that I had any interest in, plus I did not want a replacement V10 that would experience the identical problem (per Panasonics response to cNet) I declined at that time.

I still plan to call on them in the future when I believe there is a decent replacement from one of the remaining plasma manufacturers. And even though I am unhappy with what I perceive as shoddy business practices from Panasonic, if they make the set with the best picture, and that set has flaws I can live with (never expected perfection), I will still purchase a set with their name on it. Of course, if LG or Samsung make a set with the proper qualities, they will have my consideration.

I really do not have a strong feeling one way or the other as to how Best Buy will honor their warranty and the verbally stated assurances given me earlier this year. If I do not receive financial consideration for my current set, I know it can either find a home at my son's house (he has my 2006 Panasonic now), the club house at our condo community, or sold to someone at a bargain price. I purchase a new set every three or four years anyway and my original intention was that after my time with the V10, I would purchase something newer, bigger and hopefully better and recycle the V10 using one of the methods above.

For the time being, I enjoy the set 90% or more of the time. The main times I notice the rise in blacks is watching letterboxed blu-rays in the evening. By the way, the rise is noticeable on my set even with bias lighting which we use.

If you are happy with your 65" set at the price you paid (and considering the warranty, that sounds like a steal), try not to think to0 much about this particular forum and enjoy a very good, not perfect, television. Also know that unless you were one of the fortunate ones to purchase a Pioneer, most of the other current candidates for a good TV are not much, if any, better than what you are currently viewing.

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post #10264 of 11234 Old 11-11-2010, 05:15 PM
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hi there i have been following the black level issue on various threads for some time and i was wondering if anybody had experienced what i have over the last few months i have been convinced my black level had changed and the pq was looking washed out brighter and i was convinced my black level had changed so i found out how to enter the service menu to check my hours of use which is 800 hundred hours after i left the service menu bam my nice inky blacks had returned to the way i remember them which i see as strange as i changed nothing tonight i was watching greenmile on blu ray using there black uniforms as refrence and before entering the service menu they seemed almost navy blue at time since coming out inky blacks again has this happened to any one else
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post #10265 of 11234 Old 11-11-2010, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tak225 View Post

hi there i have been following the black level issue on various threads for some time and i was wondering if anybody had experienced what i have over the last few months i have been convinced my black level had changed and the pq was looking washed out brighter and i was convinced my black level had changed so i found out how to enter the service menu to check my hours of use which is 800 hundred hours after i left the service menu bam my nice inky blacks had returned to the way i remember them which i see as strange as i changed nothing tonight i was watching greenmile on blu ray using there black uniforms as refrence and before entering the service menu they seemed almost navy blue at time since coming out inky blacks again has this happened to any one else

If it were only that simple......

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post #10266 of 11234 Old 11-12-2010, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

If it were only that simple......

Finally, after 10,300 posts someone found a fix

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #10267 of 11234 Old 11-12-2010, 04:53 AM
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I enjoy this thread. First one I've ever been involved in and I've learned just enough to annoy people Could do with less bickering but that's the internet I suppose I'll keep checking in the vain hope someone finds a "fix"
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post #10268 of 11234 Old 11-15-2010, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tak225 View Post

hi there i have been following the black level issue on various threads for some time and i was wondering if anybody had experienced what i have over the last few months i have been convinced my black level had changed and the pq was looking washed out brighter and i was convinced my black level had changed so i found out how to enter the service menu to check my hours of use which is 800 hundred hours after i left the service menu bam my nice inky blacks had returned to the way i remember them which i see as strange as i changed nothing tonight i was watching greenmile on blu ray using there black uniforms as refrence and before entering the service menu they seemed almost navy blue at time since coming out inky blacks again has this happened to any one else

Did your full-stop ("period") key break at the same time as your television?
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post #10269 of 11234 Old 11-15-2010, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binman_UK View Post

Did your full-stop ("period") key break at the same time as your television?

Would it be apropriate to ask when he last had his period?
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post #10270 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

What would you classify as BS and lies?

I would say this classify as both.. there are tons of posts to go through find them all but this one has always stood out.

Now I still haven't found the way to bring the blacks back to where they started, but I provide you with the info you need to prevent your S1, S10, GW10, G10, G15 and V10 to ever be plagued with the black level bug - that's for the G12 Plasmas that haven't reached the magical border yet.

One warning: The following procedure has been tested with several german GW10 and S10 so far! The specific way could be different to US-Models, but since the EEPROM of all G12-models is very close to one another, I doubt it.

Okay, we have to go into the servicemenu. Once you are there, got to the page with the SRV-Tool. Click "Ok" and the SRV-Tool will open.

Since you are users of this thread, you will probably know this SRV-Tool already.

If you went with the cursor down, mark the last field on the right hand and press the Mute-Button for more then five seconds, your amount of hours, that the display was used will be displayed along with the number of times, you powered it on.

Okay, what we do now ist to mark the first field from above on the right hand instead. Again hold down the Mute-Button for more then 5 seconds. An option called "Memory Editor" appears.

You click "Ok" aka the actionbutton at your remotecontrol and voila, here is the heart of your TV, the EEPROM.

"EEPROM Peaks" is our next station. Mark it with the cursor and press "OK". You can navigate with the cursorbuttons of your remotecontrol and move with the channelcontrol up and down through the bunch of pages.

The lines of interest, which contain the internal clock are 6C8 and 6D0!

They can look like the following for example:

6C8: FF FF FF 52 00 00 1E 29
6D0: 02 00 00 00 FF FF 00 00

The fourth hexadecimal letter of line 6C8 represents the number of times, your TV were powered on. 52 means 82 times!

The seventh letter of line 6C8 are the minutes and the last letter same line represents the hours the display has been in use. 1E is 30 Minutes and 29 is 41 hours.

The first letter of line 6D0 makes the hours complete. In our case, it says "02", which means, the mark of 255 hours has been exceeded two times.

This means 256 hours * 2 + 41hours + 30 Minutes-> This panel has been used for 553 hours and 30 minutes!

What we do now? We mark all four letters each and reset them with our volumecontrol to zero! Save each entry to the EEPROM with the Action-Button (aka "OK") on your remote control.

After your changes, press "Exit" two times. You are back in the SRV-Tool. Now press the "Exit"-Button for more then 10 seconds and your TV will restart.

You now have a TV, that has been powered on only one time and has zero hours of use on its shoulders.

Repeat this regulary and the Black level Bug will never touch you.

Another possibility is to set the clock of a new G12 plasma to let's say four thousand hours, since the three voltagebumpmarks should never kick in. This would spare you the need to reset the clock again and again.

Worked like a charm to reset time/counter. However, mine had been on for 655 times so I had to reset also the 5th hex letter on 6C8

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #10271 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I would say this classify as both.. there are tons of posts to go through find them all but this one has always stood out.

Now I still haven't found the way to bring the blacks back to where they started, but I provide you with the info you need to prevent your S1, S10, GW10, G10, G15 and V10 to ever be plagued with the black level bug - that's for the G12 Plasmas that haven't reached the magical border yet.

One warning: The following procedure has been tested with several german GW10 and S10 so far! The specific way could be different to US-Models, but since the EEPROM of all G12-models is very close to one another, I doubt it.

Okay, we have to go into the servicemenu. Once you are there, got to the page with the SRV-Tool. Click "Ok" and the SRV-Tool will open.

Since you are users of this thread, you will probably know this SRV-Tool already.

If you went with the cursor down, mark the last field on the right hand and press the Mute-Button for more then five seconds, your amount of hours, that the display was used will be displayed along with the number of times, you powered it on.

Okay, what we do now ist to mark the first field from above on the right hand instead. Again hold down the Mute-Button for more then 5 seconds. An option called "Memory Editor" appears.

You click "Ok" aka the actionbutton at your remotecontrol and voila, here is the heart of your TV, the EEPROM.

"EEPROM Peaks" is our next station. Mark it with the cursor and press "OK". You can navigate with the cursorbuttons of your remotecontrol and move with the channelcontrol up and down through the bunch of pages.

The lines of interest, which contain the internal clock are 6C8 and 6D0!

They can look like the following for example:

6C8: FF FF FF 52 00 00 1E 29
6D0: 02 00 00 00 FF FF 00 00

The fourth hexadecimal letter of line 6C8 represents the number of times, your TV were powered on. 52 means 82 times!

The seventh letter of line 6C8 are the minutes and the last letter same line represents the hours the display has been in use. 1E is 30 Minutes and 29 is 41 hours.

The first letter of line 6D0 makes the hours complete. In our case, it says "02", which means, the mark of 255 hours has been exceeded two times.

This means 256 hours * 2 + 41hours + 30 Minutes-> This panel has been used for 553 hours and 30 minutes!

What we do now? We mark all four letters each and reset them with our volumecontrol to zero! Save each entry to the EEPROM with the Action-Button (aka "OK") on your remote control.

After your changes, press "Exit" two times. You are back in the SRV-Tool. Now press the "Exit"-Button for more then 10 seconds and your TV will restart.

You now have a TV, that has been powered on only one time and has zero hours of use on its shoulders.

Repeat this regulary and the Black level Bug will never touch you.

Another possibility is to set the clock of a new G12 plasma to let's say four thousand hours, since the three voltagebumpmarks should never kick in. This would spare you the need to reset the clock again and again.

Worked like a charm to reset time/counter. However, mine had been on for 655 times so I had to reset also the 5th hex letter on 6C8

Has anyone else done this and confirms it works???

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post #10272 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 03:46 PM
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Yeah, if anyone is willing to try this method, that would be great. As long as its anyone but me
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post #10273 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

Yeah, if anyone is willing to try this method, that would be great. As long as its anyone but me

You guys are kidding, right...?
This is a repost from January
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17830571

Rpresner was letting D-Nice know what he thought was both BS and Lies...
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post #10274 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggy View Post

You guys are kidding, right...?
This is a repost from January
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17830571

Rpresner was letting D-Nice know what he thought was both BS and Lies...

I apologize for not reading all 10,309 posts in this thread. Also, it wasn't clear in Rpresner's post that he was quoting an old post. It looked like he was supplying a method.
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post #10275 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post


I would say this classify as both.. there are tons of posts to go through find them all but this one has always stood out.

Now I still haven't found the way to bring the blacks back to where they started, but I provide you with the info you need to prevent your S1, S10, GW10, G10, G15 and V10 to ever be plagued with the black level bug - that's for the G12 Plasmas that haven't reached the magical border yet.

One warning: The following procedure has been tested with several german GW10 and S10 so far! The specific way could be different to US-Models, but since the EEPROM of all G12-models is very close to one another, I doubt it.

Okay, we have to go into the servicemenu. Once you are there, got to the page with the SRV-Tool. Click "Ok" and the SRV-Tool will open.

Since you are users of this thread, you will probably know this SRV-Tool already.

If you went with the cursor down, mark the last field on the right hand and press the Mute-Button for more then five seconds, your amount of hours, that the display was used will be displayed along with the number of times, you powered it on.

Okay, what we do now ist to mark the first field from above on the right hand instead. Again hold down the Mute-Button for more then 5 seconds. An option called "Memory Editor" appears.

You click "Ok" aka the actionbutton at your remotecontrol and voila, here is the heart of your TV, the EEPROM.

"EEPROM Peaks" is our next station. Mark it with the cursor and press "OK". You can navigate with the cursorbuttons of your remotecontrol and move with the channelcontrol up and down through the bunch of pages.

The lines of interest, which contain the internal clock are 6C8 and 6D0!

They can look like the following for example:

6C8: FF FF FF 52 00 00 1E 29
6D0: 02 00 00 00 FF FF 00 00

The fourth hexadecimal letter of line 6C8 represents the number of times, your TV were powered on. 52 means 82 times!

The seventh letter of line 6C8 are the minutes and the last letter same line represents the hours the display has been in use. 1E is 30 Minutes and 29 is 41 hours.

The first letter of line 6D0 makes the hours complete. In our case, it says "02", which means, the mark of 255 hours has been exceeded two times.

This means 256 hours * 2 + 41hours + 30 Minutes-> This panel has been used for 553 hours and 30 minutes!

What we do now? We mark all four letters each and reset them with our volumecontrol to zero! Save each entry to the EEPROM with the Action-Button (aka "OK") on your remote control.

After your changes, press "Exit" two times. You are back in the SRV-Tool. Now press the "Exit"-Button for more then 10 seconds and your TV will restart.

You now have a TV, that has been powered on only one time and has zero hours of use on its shoulders.

Repeat this regulary and the Black level Bug will never touch you.

Another possibility is to set the clock of a new G12 plasma to let's say four thousand hours, since the three voltagebumpmarks should never kick in. This would spare you the need to reset the clock again and again.

Worked like a charm to reset time/counter. However, mine had been on for 655 times so I had to reset also the 5th hex letter on 6C8

Ok, yeah that is BS
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post #10276 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreventerWind View Post

I apologize for not reading all 10,309 posts in this thread. Also, it wasn't clear in Rpresner's post that he was quoting an old post. It looked like he was supplying a method.

I would say it was pretty clear.. DNICE asked what I thought was BS and Lies at the top of my post and then i replied, here is what I found. Then copied the post.

DNICE,
There are a lot of people on that post trying to act like they have your knowledge telling people how to make the level jumping stop or go back to the way the tv was out of the box. But all they were doing were giving you ways to screw your tv up.

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #10277 of 11234 Old 11-17-2010, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Ok, yeah that is BS


As indicated by the total of three days that the original discussion about it lasted.

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post #10278 of 11234 Old 11-21-2010, 05:05 AM
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The lack of any effective hack workaround for this problem is astonishing.

Thousands of posts here and elsewhere and yet there is not even a clear understanding of the hardware or software mechanisms that cause the MLL rise.
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post #10279 of 11234 Old 11-21-2010, 05:20 AM
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Retty, look at the "black level research" thread for starters. There is absolutely a clear understanding of what causes the MLL rise and there is no workaround. It is built into the sets. The initial black level is artificially low. The normalized black level is the risen one. It's basically like "dynamic contrast" on LCD's except they built it into the set -represented as being one thing to sell and in actuality turning out to be something different, just in this case it's a delayed reaction before you find that out. This is how they are designed so short of redesigning the sets there is no workaround. At best, you may have some thearetical workarounds that keep it from reaching it's normal quicker (I believe one user had their board swapped but it was still within the period where increased voltages weren't needed). Even if you were able to keep the black levels black for some time be tweaking things, eventually you would start having pixels misfire/not firing at all, which would be even less optimal.
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post #10280 of 11234 Old 11-21-2010, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retty View Post
The lack of any effective hack workaround for this problem is astonishing.

Thousands of posts here and elsewhere and yet there is not even a clear understanding of the hardware or software mechanisms that cause the MLL rise.

Re: the bolded text

Really?

Post #1095 on page 35 of this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17810990

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post #10281 of 11234 Old 11-21-2010, 04:44 PM
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seems i had the placebo effect my black levels have risen and image retention has gotten worse i have emailed panasonic letting them no that i am not happy and that they need to make a fix for this probebly fall on deaf ears but its just not the same tv i payed for any more
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post #10282 of 11234 Old 11-22-2010, 05:15 PM
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From what I have read and understand, the MLL rise mechanism is there for compensating for aging phosphors that get dimmer. That's a nice and logical way of dealing with this problem but as everybody agrees, this mechanism does a lousy job, because it rises the voltages faster and more abruptly than it should have. It's prediction is flawed and outright wrong, especially for us videophiles because we deliberately use very moderate brightness and contrast settings for making (pointless and with the opposite result as it turns out) the phosphors age slower.

So if we can't fiddle with the mechanism that gives rise to the voltage then there is only one logical solution and it is very simple.

Age the phosphors!

I am not kidding, really. The aging of the phosphors is an undeniable fact and the more they age the more they lose brightness. The MLL mechanism exists to compensate for that problem and that is also a fact. So if the MLL mechanism falsely increases the voltage when the phosphors haven't aged as much as it expected then the result is a brighter max brightness AND higher MLL (black levels). By deliberately aging the phosphors, they will get dimmer and the max brightness will get lower as well as the MLL!

So why not put the tvs in torch-mode with very bright scenes and leave it on for days on end? That will surely make the job done, wouldn't it?

All we need for this, is a Break in DVD! Anyone care to try it?
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post #10283 of 11234 Old 11-22-2010, 05:25 PM
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Nektarios,

How about post #1: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232441

It won't help with the black level problem though.

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post #10284 of 11234 Old 11-22-2010, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Nektarios,

How about post #1: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232441

It won't help with the black level problem though.

Larry

Ok but why it will not help?
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post #10285 of 11234 Old 11-22-2010, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nektarios View Post

Ok but why it will not help?


You are asking me in a round about way to prove a negative which all scientists know is impossible.

This is the basic reason for the rising blacks:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17810990

But I'm sure that you read it before posting.


Larry
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post #10286 of 11234 Old 11-22-2010, 06:21 PM
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Ok but why it will not help?

what model do you have?
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post #10287 of 11234 Old 11-23-2010, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

You are asking me in a round about way to prove a negative which all scientists know is impossible.

This is the basic reason for the rising blacks:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17810990

But I'm sure that you read it before posting.


Larry

Thanks for pointing that out Larry, but I still fail to see why the MLL shouldn't decrease with more aged phosphors. The quotation is describing in detail (although we cannot see the diagrams) the process of the MLL mechanism. It also says that a poor synchronized increase in voltage will increase the MLL, but it does not say that MLL will not be decreased (discharge characteristics) as the phosphors age.
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post #10288 of 11234 Old 11-23-2010, 02:37 AM
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what model do you have?

I had a 50U10 and now I have a 50VT20 (what a fine set!).
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post #10289 of 11234 Old 11-23-2010, 09:26 AM
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Nektarios - the problem is that your initial premise is WRONG:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektarios View Post

From what I have read and understand, the MLL rise mechanism is there for compensating for aging phosphors that get dimmer.

You do not understand correctly

The MLL issue has NOTHING to do with the "phosphors dim as they age" phenomenon inherent to all plasmas. It has to do with the initialization voltage which is required for the cell to fire in the first place.

Keep reading, this has been discussed extensively.

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post #10290 of 11234 Old 11-23-2010, 12:45 PM
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Batpig,

Everyone who has used the procedure posted by D-Nice for aging the panel has in essence done what Nektarios thinks will solve the problem. At least one other member has stated just the opposite. He says that the aging process causes the problem.

These get put into the category which now includes 'white noise will solve the problem', 'a reset will solve the problem', 'setting the TV's clock back to zero will solve the problem' or 'setting the TV's clock to a very large value will solve the problem.' I put them into the category of 'at 2200 hours GMT during a full moon, walking around the panel three times while singing a Gregorian chant will solve the problem.'


Why is it that people with no technical education or training in the sciences or engineering think that they can do this. I doubt that they would ever dare to tell an surgeon how to solve a technical problem involving a procedure on the brain -- but when it comes to consumer electronics....


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