Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 345 - AVS Forum
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post #10321 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold-Steel View Post

Well guys, I'm pretty choked.

It finally happened to me. Pretty obvious rise in black level seemed to happen really quickly and hasn't faded.

Today I booted up the set and the black level seemed to go back down. But after a couple hours of gaming, I noticed it rose again back to *gray* levels.

I'm pretty disappointed. I have a G15 (November 2009 build) and if this 'rise' is permanent, it was great while it lasted.

Like many others here, I'm still super satisfied with the picture quality and I'm hoping that somehow the black level will find a way to go back down but to be honest - I'm not too optimistic with what I've read in this thread.

I do have an extended warranty on the television through Future Shop though, but I really doubt they are going to service me for what the manufacturer says is *normal* - anyone with any experience trying this route through FS/Best Buy?

You mentioned that you gamming on the set, have you noticed if the IR has also become worse along with the rise?
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post #10322 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 02:08 PM
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I've spent a year trying to get my 50 inch G15 replaced, I have no actual measurements but I've noticed a drastic increase in blacks, which now look worse then my Old 46ln630 Samsung LCD, and the even bigger problem is that the Image retention has became so bad that a static image on the screen for less then a minute will remain quite visible for sometimes weeks even after running the scrolling bars for hours. After telling Panasonic of my problems here's an actual e-mail I recieved.

"Thank you for your inquiry

Panasonic has incorporated a feature in our VIERA Plasma TVs that makes adjustments periodically to maintain our excellent picture quality. ? One aspect of this feature results in very small changes to black levels. ? The VIERA Plasma TVs work as they were designed and, even with the designed-in changes, provide outstanding performance."

After calling them and asking what my options were, and if it would be possible to get a refund, or a replacement they transfered me to a higher department where I was hung up on mid sentence.

A week later I was contacted by a lawyer who threatend me with legal action if I continued to contact Panasonic about my problem. I was never rude, or disrepectful and did not pester them with an obscene amount of calls or e-mails. I just wanted a fix for my clearly defective T.V.

I have never experienced such bad customer service. I feel like I'm out of options, and at this point I can not watch any movies with letterbars, or any Television with a static image on screen, pretty much voiding the entire point of owning a T.V.

If anyone has any ideas or is in a similar situation let me know.
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post #10323 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 02:17 PM
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I would keep calling them, let them take you to court because you are dissatisfied with a clearly defective HDTV.

That would look real nice on the front page news of Cnet, Endgadget and may even make Televised news as well.

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post #10324 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 02:27 PM
 
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Wow, that just seals the deal in terms of my intent to avoid Panasonic at every possible turn, on every product line. Of course, I'd already done that with Samsung along with Sony, so I'm running out of CEMs. LG and Pioneer are the last 2 standing.
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post #10325 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 03:05 PM
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I noticed today that the blacks on my VT25 have visibly risen. The TV's not even a month old. Oh well, it's still pretty good. I'll live. I'm glad that I paid for it with money from an insurance settlement (my last Panny plasma, a 58pz750u, was stolen) instead of going into my own pocket.
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post #10326 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 09:23 PM
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hey guys

picking up a 50'' S2 tommorow. the sales person says that fading blacks have been fixed in 2010 models, but i would like an objective opinion.

i fully expect to keep the TV for 3+ years and intend to follow the break in/settings in D-Nice's thread

please chime in with some opinions as im going to bed right away and going to the store bright and early

still have an option of getting a Samsung, I guess....
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post #10327 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kha View Post

hey guys

picking up a 50'' S2 tommorow. the sales person says that fading blacks have been fixed in 2010 models, but i would like an objective opinion.

i fully expect to keep the TV for 3+ years and intend to follow the break in/settings in D-Nice's thread

please chime in with some opinions as im going to bed right away and going to the store bright and early

still have an option of getting a Samsung, I guess....

He's a liar...or worse...uneducated. It still exists.

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post #10328 of 11475 Old 12-22-2010, 10:35 PM
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But much more spread out, instead of rising at 400 hours or so; and when they do rise, the mll levels should be completely acceptable. Especially with decent custom/movie/thx settings.
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post #10329 of 11475 Old 12-23-2010, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guvadc View Post

You mentioned that you gamming on the set, have you noticed if the IR has also become worse along with the rise?

There's definitely been an increase in IR for sure but nothing too serious. Most of the time it goes away quickly even though I do a lot of heavy gaming.

Usually if there is IR I see it on black (or what should be black) backgrounds and it's very faint. Nothing I worry about too much but I also keep really low contrast settings cause I play in a dim environment with bias lighting.
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post #10330 of 11475 Old 12-23-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenmask View Post

A week later I was contacted by a lawyer who threatend me with legal action if I continued to contact Panasonic about my problem.

WHAT...?!? They are threatening legal action against YOU??? You have all the cards, my friend (i.e. objective measurements from a plethora of sources, backing from every major review site that is not on Panny's payroll - cnet, I'm looking at you). Unfortunately, the way the legal system works, that is unlikely to benefit anybody but the lawyers. In any case, the threat that they might sue you is simply a damage control bluff on their part (one that is worthy of Monster), and I for one would love to see them try.

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post #10331 of 11475 Old 12-23-2010, 12:25 PM
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anyone know of a good meter to use to measure my black levels. I have come across some cash betting and really want to know where i am at. I dont need the best meter, just a reliable one.

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post #10332 of 11475 Old 12-23-2010, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

anyone know of a good meter to use to measure my black levels. I have come across some cash betting and really want to know where i am at. I dont need the best meter, just a reliable one.

The i1?
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post #10333 of 11475 Old 12-23-2010, 02:57 PM
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The i1 LT is fine for measuring low level luminance. In fact, it is more accurate than the i1 Pro for that purpose. Many of us use the LT with the color measurements profiled to the Pro to get the best all around readings.

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post #10334 of 11475 Old 12-24-2010, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

anyone know of a good meter to use to measure my black levels. I have come across some cash betting and really want to know where i am at. I dont need the best meter, just a reliable one.

Are you wanting to know what the black level is at on your set because it has risen to a point where you've noticed it, or are you just currious as to what it measures?
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post #10335 of 11475 Old 12-29-2010, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenmask View Post

A week later I was contacted by a lawyer who threatend me with legal action if I continued to contact Panasonic about my problem. I was never rude, or disrepectful and did not pester them with an obscene amount of calls or e-mails. I just wanted a fix for my clearly defective T.V.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

WHAT...?!? They are threatening legal action against YOU??? You have all the cards, my friend (i.e. objective measurements from a plethora of sources, backing from every major review site that is not on Panny's payroll - cnet, I'm looking at you). Unfortunately, the way the legal system works, that is unlikely to benefit anybody but the lawyers. In any case, the threat that they might sue you is simply a damage control bluff on their part (one that is worthy of Monster), and I for one would love to see them try.

Actually, the more I thought about this, the more infuriated (and befuddled) I became. So, I sat down and composed the following reply to this lawyer:

Quote:


To whom it may concern:

Exactly what legal proceedings are you referring to? Allow me to summarize the situation. I paid $4k for a product, which is clearly defective (a fact which is borne out by the many web sites which post subjective measurement data), and I wrote the customer satisfaction department of your client. At no time did I disparage the company or the product, but I merely reported the problem. The reply to this was a stock letter saying, in effect, that the behavior is a feature, not a bug. The substantial increase in MLL is intentional, and the accompanying image retention is simply not their concern. In short, your client is clearly the Toyota of the CE world, and has been called out on the issue all over the net:

Quote:


Our cars are designed to accelerate uncontrollably at random times. It is a feature designed to keep the driver alert, and helps maintain optimal reflexes throughout the life of the vehicle.

Many of my friends have asked for advice on upgrading to a plasma display, and I simply direct them to the applicable threads on AVS, cnet, etc. Sadly (for your client), this does not reflect well, and I can safely say that my friends have looked elsewhere (and not just for TVs, but have sworn off the Panasonic name entirely). Legal note, in case you weren't paying attention in Libel 101: There is no legal issue here as I am simply referring people to the facts, and am not stating them myself. Sorry, no lawsuit here (move along).

In closing, you should know that this, and any further correspondence, is being posted on multiple websites (I have included one URL below in case you wish to follow the conversation, or even to contribute). I will leave it up to you to track down the others, so you can issue the same cease and desist order to each of them (my, this is becoming the expensive proposition, ain't it?). By any chance do you also represent Monster Cables, as this is almost worthy of their empty threat tactics? In any case, should you wish to pursue this further, be assured that your client will get a great deal of publicity (not the kind they want, I would guess), but, please, knock yourself out. I find all of this rather amusing, really.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167339


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post #10336 of 11475 Old 12-29-2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

Actually, the more I thought about this, the more infuriated (and befuddled) I became. So, I sat down and composed the following reply to this “lawyer”:


Why did you not just add your name to this existing lawsuit? Maybe in 5 or so years you'll get a check for $100.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462551-1.html

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post #10337 of 11475 Old 12-30-2010, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

WHAT...?!? They are threatening legal action against YOU??? You have all the cards, my friend (i.e. objective measurements from a plethora of sources, backing from every major review site that is not on Panny's payroll - cnet, I'm looking at you). Unfortunately, the way the legal system works, that is unlikely to benefit anybody but the lawyers. In any case, the threat that they might sue you is simply a damage control bluff on their part (one that is worthy of Monster), and I for one would love to see them try.

Exactly, let 'em do it! That's exactly what you want because then you'd have the platform you need to tell everyone about this and get the word out! That's exactly what they do not want, they want to keep this quiet! Tell them to "bring it on". That's just want you want.

God Bless,
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post #10338 of 11475 Old 12-30-2010, 12:51 AM
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Exactly, let 'em do it! That's exactly what you want because then you'd have the platform you need to tell everyone about this and get the word out! That's exactly what they do not want, they want to keep this quiet! Tell them to "bring it on". That's just want you want.

Yeah, if I hadn't gotten a refund when I did, I would have been calling them twice a day every day until I got somewhere, and I would have begged them to sue me for harrasment if they so much as mentioned it.

I would be at the top of their worst enemy list, just as everyone with this problem should be. If more people had been doing what I listed above, odds are this would have been fixed already with a firmware update. (Samsung made a firmware that lowered the blacks on their plasma sets, why can't Panasonic?)

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post #10339 of 11475 Old 12-30-2010, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Yeah, if I hadn't gotten a refund when I did, I would have been calling them twice a day every day until I got somewhere, and I would have begged them to sue me for harrasment if they so much as mentioned it.

I would be at the top of their worst enemy list, just as everyone with this problem should be. If more people had been doing what I listed above, odds are this would have been fixed already with a firmware update. (Samsung made a firmware that lowered the blacks on their plasma sets, why can't Panasonic?)

I'm confused. My post was for "oxygenmask"/"Vadar", post #10365 above. So where exactly is your post and what you did, how did you get a refund?

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post #10340 of 11475 Old 12-30-2010, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

I'm confused. My post was for "oxygenmask"/"Vadar", post #10365 above. So where exactly is your post and what you did, how did you get a refund?

I responded to the original post, and for some reason I missed the reply letter, which is worded very well (I especially like the final sentence) I only chimed in on what I would be doing today if I hadn't gotten a refund just days before their announcement (thanks to a very helpful high level Panny tech) I am very interested in seeing where this goes and I wish oxygenmask the best and really hopes that he presses the issue.

I'm actually tempted to use my 42px75 as a way to bug Panasonic (all their sets from 2006 on rise after all) even though the warranty has expired it's performance is severely crippled due to this. (If you can't tell, I'm still bitter over my 54V10 having the all at once rise)

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post #10341 of 11475 Old 12-30-2010, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I responded to the original post, and for some reason I missed the reply letter, which is worded very well (I especially like the final sentence) I only chimed in on what I would be doing today if I hadn't gotten a refund just days before their announcement (thanks to a very helpful high level Panny tech) I am very interested in seeing where this goes and I wish oxygenmask the best and really hopes that he presses the issue.

Ok I gotcha. But I'm still curious as to how you got a refund.

God Bless,
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post #10342 of 11475 Old 12-30-2010, 12:28 PM
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Ok I gotcha. But I'm still curious as to how you got a refund.

The Panasonic tech helped me set up my replacment 54V10, and as soon as he saw the new blacks post rise he OK'd the refund immediately. (he was going to do it on my word alone, but he immediately spotted the rise and agreed that it was defective)

All this happened days before the Cnet reveal that this was a normal function and Panny stonewalled everyone.

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post #10343 of 11475 Old 12-31-2010, 12:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenmask View Post

I've spent a year trying to get my 50 inch G15 replaced, I have no actual measurements but I've noticed a drastic increase in blacks, which now look worse then my Old 46ln630 Samsung LCD, and the even bigger problem is that the Image retention has became so bad that a static image on the screen for less then a minute will remain quite visible for sometimes weeks even after running the scrolling bars for hours. After telling Panasonic of my problems here's an actual e-mail I recieved.

"Thank you for your inquiry

Panasonic has incorporated a feature in our VIERA Plasma TVs that makes adjustments periodically to maintain our excellent picture quality. ? One aspect of this feature results in very small changes to black levels. ? The VIERA Plasma TVs work as they were designed and, even with the designed-in changes, provide outstanding performance."

After calling them and asking what my options were, and if it would be possible to get a refund, or a replacement they transfered me to a higher department where I was hung up on mid sentence.

A week later I was contacted by a lawyer who threatend me with legal action if I continued to contact Panasonic about my problem. I was never rude, or disrepectful and did not pester them with an obscene amount of calls or e-mails. I just wanted a fix for my clearly defective T.V.

I have never experienced such bad customer service. I feel like I'm out of options, and at this point I can not watch any movies with letterbars, or any Television with a static image on screen, pretty much voiding the entire point of owning a T.V.

If anyone has any ideas or is in a similar situation let me know.

Im sorry, this poster has 3 posts and just joined. To believe this lawyer story, which is most likely FUD, is a little premature. Panasonic has not denied the fact now, and explained it. To think they just sent a lawyer after this person is ridiculous.

Id like to see some PROOF, but I know the guys with pitch forks and rope usually dont care about the "p" word.
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post #10344 of 11475 Old 12-31-2010, 12:51 PM
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It does sound very strange that the legal dep't. would even be contacted over a single rather simple customer complaint. It also seems wildly overblown for them then to send a cease and desist letter.

If this really happened, it is a scandal in the making; if it's FUD, I would be very interested to find out which competitor company decided to stoop to such tactics so I can make sure never to buy anything from them.

In any case, I agree that supporting evidence would be helpful. Which customer service phone number and extension did you contact, oxygenmask? What is the name of and contact info for the lawyer who sent you the cease & desist letter? With this information, folks quickly and easily should be able to corroborate the story and I expect it'll lead to such an online uproar that you'll get very swift and agreeable resolution for your complaint. Absent supporting evidence though, I will remain politely suspicious (sorry--it just sounds so extreme, you know?).

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post #10345 of 11475 Old 12-31-2010, 12:53 PM
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Im sorry, this poster has 3 posts and just joined. To believe this lawyer story, which is most likely FUD, is a little premature. Panasonic has not denied the fact now, and explained it. To think they just sent a lawyer after this person is ridiculous.

Id like to see some PROOF, but I know the guys with pitch forks and rope usually dont care about the "p" word.

That's true, and I am not convinced that this really happened either. However, given the past intimidation tactics employed by Monster cables (at least up until they had their arse handed to them by Kurt over at Blue Jeans Cable), I would not be surprised in the least.

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post #10346 of 11475 Old 12-31-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

That's true, and I am not convinced that this really happened either. However, given the past intimidation tactics employed by Monster cables (at least up until they had their arse handed to them by Kurt over at Blue Jeans Cable), I would not be surprised in the least.

Oh, that really was a scandal. Actually, I've been buying from Blue Jeans ever since (and I will continue to do so with special enthusiasm). But this one is putatively a letter sent to a mere customer, not to a company at all. If Panasonic really did this, it is among the worst PR moves I have ever seen.

Let's wait and see what further information oxygenmask can give when he next logs in.

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post #10347 of 11475 Old 12-31-2010, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The Panasonic tech helped me set up my replacment 54V10, and as soon as he saw the new blacks post rise he OK'd the refund immediately. (he was going to do it on my word alone, but he immediately spotted the rise and agreed that it was defective)

All this happened days before the Cnet reveal that this was a normal function and Panny stonewalled everyone.

Did you get a full refund, and did you have the standard warranty or an EW from someone?

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post #10348 of 11475 Old 01-01-2011, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Im sorry, this poster has 3 posts and just joined.

From what I see, he joined in Jan 28 2010, when he also made his very first post, and with it now being the first day of Jan 2011. (BTW, Happy New Year everyone!) That would mean he has been around for 11 months, approx a month shy of 1 full year now. Granted he has only made a total of 3 posts in that amount of time, but with his being a forum member now for approx 1 year, he also did not just join up either. Not to mention, he could have also been a lurker for even longer than that before joining to make his first post.
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

From what I see, he joined in Jan 28 2010, when he also made his very first post, and with it now being the first day of Jan 2011. (BTW, Happy New Year everyone!) That would mean he has been around for 11 months, approx a month shy of 1 full year now. Granted he has only made a total of 3 posts in that amount of time, but with his being a forum member now for approx 1 year, he also did not just join up either. Not to mention, he could have also been a lurker for even longer than that before joining to make his first post.

Yepp, my mistake. BUT, I still think it's BS...

Plenty of industry plants on this site. I'm still amused people bit on the hook with no bait.
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post #10350 of 11475 Old 01-02-2011, 02:13 AM
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I can't say one way or the other if it's actually BS or not. But it certainly is a bit suspicious, that if they did indeed contact him like that, that he may not be saying exactly everything that he may have done to generate such a response like that from Panasonic's lawyers. I'm pretty sure just normal complaining and griping about the TV would not get a response from Panasonic like that, and that instead it would have taken some kind a threatening action on his part first for them to do something like that.
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