Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 346 - AVS Forum
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post #10351 of 11198 Old 01-02-2011, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post
Did you get a full refund, and did you have the standard warranty or an EW from someone?
Full refund from Panasonic directly.

this was before they made the announcement that it was normal, the field tech authorized it himself. (I'll repeat this every post about this just so somebody doesn't read just that post and get the wrong idea about my refund)

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post #10352 of 11198 Old 01-02-2011, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post
I can't say one way or the other if it's actually BS or not. But it certainly is a bit suspicious, that if they did indeed contact him like that, that he may not be saying exactly everything that he may have done to generate such a response like that from Panasonic's lawyers. I'm pretty sure just normal complaining and griping about the TV would not get a response from Panasonic like that, and that instead it would have taken some kind a threatening action on his part first for them to do something like that.
It's hard to say whether or not its BS and I for one tend to have a knee jerk reaction that posts like that are BS. People post a lot of stuff on here while bending the truth a bit. I'd like to give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but what everyone (including the poster) has to understand than when you post that a lawyer for Panasonic has contacted YOU as being a problem, for the matter of your set that has not lived up to expectations, that this is a pretty big deal and open to scrutiny.

Last year in Jan they posted that they had just got done running break in slides on a G15 for 100 hours. At that time they were concerned there was a fair amount of IR on the set and that the black levels were lighter than what they thought they should be. The next month (Feb) they said that after owning the set for 3 months that the black levels had risen to unacceptable levels and the were in contact with Panasonic on this matter. This means that they were in contact with Pansasonic for nearly a year (as they posted) to try and get the set replaced. A lot can be said an done in a year.

I apologize to the Poster if everything they said is factual, please understand that this was an eyebrow raising post open to suspicion and if a lawyer for Panasonic is contacting them in the context that they posted then it is completely unacceptable on Pansonics part .
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post #10353 of 11198 Old 01-04-2011, 10:18 AM
 
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So, do you think the lawyers got him
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post #10354 of 11198 Old 01-05-2011, 08:51 AM
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Professional Panasonic Plasmas used a 12 bit video scaler on last years model this year they are using a 32 bit video scaler.

These new plasmas will be something else
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post #10355 of 11198 Old 01-05-2011, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Yepp, my mistake. BUT, I still think it's BS...

Plenty of industry plants on this site. I'm still amused people bit on the hook with no bait.

Yeppers I noticed it when I first started here... seems like backstabing each other to make a buck for x-mas.

It is obvious when someone will be so negative about things and not being informative or a bit helpful.

I will say what little I know to to give information, well at least bring up ideas for people with even more knowledge.

Yes, my 2010 Panasonic 42C2 performs better than an S2 No floating blacks and keeps the lowest black levels.
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post #10356 of 11198 Old 01-05-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by m4bama View Post

Professional Panasonic Plasmas used a 12 bit video scaler on last years model this year they are using a 32 bit video scaler.

These new plasmas will be something else

In reality 12 bit scaler is better than what most Bluray players have.

Now if they use advanced processing to clean MPEG artifacts and enhance SD it would be something.

We have come to an age where our technology surpasses our archived video and film formats... Lets get a move on to 60fps video standards for live broadcast, and film (Note: Film is just a term now that digial is in the theater).

Yes, my 2010 Panasonic 42C2 performs better than an S2 No floating blacks and keeps the lowest black levels.
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post #10357 of 11198 Old 01-06-2011, 09:03 AM
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Sorry! I'm looking at getting a Panasonic G20.

Should I be concerned because of this thread?
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post #10358 of 11198 Old 01-06-2011, 11:48 AM
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Has anyone else, besides CNET, posted MLLs for the VT25 or G20 after the rise?

I thought that black levels approaching 0.010 ftL would be high enough to be measured with consumer meters like the Eye-One Display LT. But searching this thread I couldn't find any user reports of black levels for these models.
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post #10359 of 11198 Old 01-22-2011, 10:53 PM
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I have a 2009 S1. Is there any reason to hope that some day, the panel age will finally match the MLL adjustment and the black levels might get restored?

Can someone summarize if the problem has been seen in the 2010 models? I saw some references to floating blacks but I'm not sure if I've seen any complaints of black levels doubling on the 2010's.
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post #10360 of 11198 Old 01-22-2011, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred69 View Post

I have a 2009 S1. Is there any reason to hope that some day, the panel age will finally match the MLL adjustment and the black levels might get restored?

Can someone summarize if the problem has been seen in the 2010 models? I saw some references to floating blacks but I'm not sure if I've seen any complaints of black levels doubling on the 2010's.

Yea, Panasonic have effectively confirmed to Cnet the 2010 models will (at least) double--even more so on the VT. The article is linked to by CantTouchThis right above your post, and also in the original post. Since we only have Panasonic's word to go on at this point, it's worth pointing out the obvious--they are a biased party with a vested interest in downplaying and marginalizing the issue. IMO, it's entirely possible they could be fudging on the facts knowing full well the 2010 retail channel will be cleared out long before the full extent of rise is documented. Damage control if you will. Not saying that's the case, perhaps they're being honest and they really will stop at the values they've claimed, just take it with a grain of salt.
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post #10361 of 11198 Old 01-26-2011, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantTouchThis View Post

Has anyone else, besides CNET, posted MLLs for the VT25 or G20 after the rise?

I thought that black levels approaching 0.010 ftL would be high enough to be measured with consumer meters like the Eye-One Display LT. But searching this thread I couldn't find any user reports of black levels for these models.

In the very first post of this thread Orta added a link to my measurements of my G25 a couple of months ago.
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post #10362 of 11198 Old 01-26-2011, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilF View Post

Sorry! I'm looking at getting a Panasonic G20.

Should I be concerned because of this thread?

Starting MLL 0.008ftl - First rise 0.012ftl (Measurement by poster Smoof15)

Second rise 0.016ftl (I believe)
Third rise 0.020ftl (I believe)

Who says that it won't rise anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoof15 View Post

In the very first post of this thread Orta added a link to my measurements of my G25 a couple of months ago.

Have you measured it, lately?
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post #10363 of 11198 Old 01-26-2011, 06:04 PM
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No, I haven't measured it since then. Maybe this weekend I'll take another look at it.
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post #10364 of 11198 Old 01-26-2011, 08:22 PM
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Are there any folks out there who have either legal experience, or have attempted to take Panasonic to small claims court to get a refund?

I live in California if that makes any difference. The model I purchased was p50s1.

1) Who exactly do you sue? How do I identify the right department at Panasonic/right representative to send the summons to?

2) What kind of documentation should I bring
a) Cnet article describing the issue.
b) Any official response from panasonic
c) Panasonic advertising "# Contrast Ratio: 40,000:1 Native; Infinite Black Panel " Heavy emphasis on "Infinite Black" which is no where near. "VIERA HDTVs offer incredible black reproduction, with a rated dynamic contrast ratio of up to 2,000,000:1, so you'll get warm, accurate skin tones, gorgeous greens, breathtaking blues and vivid reds". Was I imagining when I read that? "incredible black reproduction".
d) Photos of the tv with a black card next to it in the dark

3) Should I send a document explaining my request for a refund, certified, return receipt first? If so, to whom?

4) Is my local smalls claim court the right place to file the suit or will it be dismissed because it's not the right venue

5) Would I have to bring my tv to court ?

I'm willing to be the guy that tests this out. I'm just tired of waiting to hear what happens in the class action lawsuit and I'm also not content to get some token concession. And I have never regretting anything more than purchasing this tv and what's happened. I don't have a light meter but I have such an extreme case it's just unwatchable in the dark.

I either want this fixed or want a refund. And even if I don't win, I'll be happy to waste their day.

Any comments or advice welcome.
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post #10365 of 11198 Old 01-27-2011, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Victory View Post

Starting MLL 0.008ftl - First rise 0.012ftl (Measurement by poster Smoof15)

Second rise 0.016ftl (I believe)
Third rise 0.020ftl (I believe)

Who says that it won't rise anymore?



Have you measured it, lately?

Really? So they still triple just like last year? I thought Panasonic said they wouldn't increase as much this year.

I'm quite surprised that there's not more data available at this time of year. Last year, we had all kinds of data at this time. How about the VT25, did anyone measure anything above CNET's 0.007 first rise?
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post #10366 of 11198 Old 01-31-2011, 03:55 PM
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I have had the Pany g20 50 inch for about three weeks and ALLREADY I have noticed the loss of black levels. What once was only a very slight glow when displaying a blank dark screen (in a dark room) has become more like the bright glow a Sony EX500 55 gives off. I used to own the Sony. Man what a dissapointment. Someone tell me theres a hacked firmware out there that could fix this BS.
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post #10367 of 11198 Old 01-31-2011, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rugdocta View Post

I have had the Pany g20 50 inch for about three weeks and ALLREADY I have noticed the loss of black levels.

It should not happen anywhere near this soon. Something ain't right . . . .

Quote:


What once was only a very slight glow when displaying a blank dark screen (in a dark room) has become more like the bright glow a Sony EX500 55 gives off.

When you say "displaying a blank dark screen" do you mean you're looking at a blank screen with no video input of any type being displayed? If so, then this is not representative of the rising black levels issue - you need to be displaying a source on the screen - like a dark scene in a movie. A good signal to display would be a Zero-IRE black jpeg image via the SD card slot. This will show the black performance of the panel. Looking at a blank-input screen will look gray by comparison and is the wrong way to judge the black levels.

The top picture is how a blank-input screen looks, and the bottom picture is how the actual black level looks....




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post #10368 of 11198 Old 02-04-2011, 07:59 AM
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Hi, new to the forums. I got this TV a little over a year ago, and it seems like lately it is impossible to see scenes with low-light. I just played Dead Space 2, and at the beginning when it says to adjust your brightness so you can see the symbol, I could barely see the symbol. Now, I'm playing the Killzone 3 demo, and I can't see the symbol at all! I have the brightness and contrast set to 100 (max), all the lights off in the room, and I've tried fiddling around with the other settings, but nothing makes it bright enough to see the symbol.

I just can't believe a TV that I bought a year ago is already becoming borderline-unwatchable... especially since one of the reasons I bought this model was for great black levels. Any solution at all to this problem?
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post #10369 of 11198 Old 02-04-2011, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billtimbob View Post

Hi, new to the forums. I got this TV a little over a year ago, and it seems like lately it is impossible to see scenes with low-light. I just played Dead Space 2, and at the beginning when it says to adjust your brightness so you can see the symbol, I could barely see the symbol. Now, I'm playing the Killzone 3 demo, and I can't see the symbol at all! I have the brightness and contrast set to 100 (max), all the lights off in the room, and I've tried fiddling around with the other settings, but nothing makes it bright enough to see the symbol.

I just can't believe a TV that I bought a year ago is already becoming borderline-unwatchable... especially since one of the reasons I bought this model was for great black levels. Any solution at all to this problem?

The issue that you are describing does not sound like the rise in mll that affects these panels. Make sure that you have the black level setting in the picture menu set to light and not dark.
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post #10370 of 11198 Old 02-04-2011, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billtimbob View Post

Hi, new to the forums. I got this TV a little over a year ago, and it seems like lately it is impossible to see scenes with low-light. I just played Dead Space 2, and at the beginning when it says to adjust your brightness so you can see the symbol, I could barely see the symbol. Now, I'm playing the Killzone 3 demo, and I can't see the symbol at all! I have the brightness and contrast set to 100 (max), all the lights off in the room, and I've tried fiddling around with the other settings, but nothing makes it bright enough to see the symbol.

I just can't believe a TV that I bought a year ago is already becoming borderline-unwatchable... especially since one of the reasons I bought this model was for great black levels. Any solution at all to this problem?

Yea it sounds like what you're experiencing is just a case of wrong settings. You need to set your "Black Level" in the TV's menu (Picture > Advanced Picture > Black Level) to "Light" and your PS3 Menu's Display Setting to RGB "Limited". I would guess you've probably got one or both of them set to just the opposite.
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post #10371 of 11198 Old 02-05-2011, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Orta View Post

PS3 Menu's Display Setting to RGB "Limited".

This was it! I had it set to full. Thanks a lot! Now it shows up even with the in-game brightness set to minimum.

I really wish I didn't play through Dead Space 2 with the setting on Full... made it impossible to see, haha.
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post #10372 of 11198 Old 02-08-2011, 11:59 AM
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Dear Sir or Madam,

I am an owner of a Panasonic TC-P42G15, one of a number of Panasonic PDPs affected by a peculiar black level problem. After several hundred hours of panel usage the black level is three times as bright, cutting the contrast ratio in half. Panasonic has revealed that their 2009 plasmas are programmed to make scheduled adjustments to "an internal driving voltage" in order to compensate for gradual changes to "various elements and material characteristics". Panasonic claims this is necessary to maintain "optimal picture performance" over the life of the panel. All I know is that my plasma's picture now lacks the excellent black level and contrast it had when it was new.

I call this a peculiar problem because it seems to be exclusive to Panasonic PDPs. According to expert calibrators on avsforum.com this behavior is not seen in competitors' PDPs, indicating an outdated or improper approach to phosphor driving on their part. There is much controversy over this matter. But it clear at least that Panasonic made a mistake with their 2009 plasmas, since the black level adjustments in the 2010+ models occur at longer intervals. Nevertheless, they will not admit the 2009 plasma are problematic, nor address the issue with a firmware update.

In any case, I wanted to make your company aware how this experience has soured my opinion of "THX Certification". I had expected a stamp of approval from your company to imply a certain amount of oversight on your part---the kind of oversight which would prevent such mistakes from occurring. In the future I am unlikely to consider "THX Certification" an asset to any product.

Sincerely,

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post #10373 of 11198 Old 02-08-2011, 12:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown View Post

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am an owner of a Panasonic TC-P42G15, one of a number of Panasonic PDPs affected by a peculiar black level problem. After several hundred hours of panel usage the black level is three times as bright, cutting the contrast ratio in half. Panasonic has revealed that their 2009 plasmas are programmed to make scheduled adjustments to "an internal driving voltage" in order to compensate for gradual changes to "various elements and material characteristics". Panasonic claims this is necessary to maintain "optimal picture performance" over the life of the panel. All I know is that my plasma's picture now lacks the excellent black level and contrast it had when it was new.

I call this a peculiar problem because it seems to be exclusive to Panasonic PDPs. According to expert calibrators on avsforum.com this behavior is not seen in competitors' PDPs, indicating an outdated or improper approach to phosphor driving on their part. There is much controversy over this matter. But it clear at least that Panasonic made a mistake with their 2009 plasmas, since the black level adjustments in the 2010+ models occur at longer intervals. Nevertheless, they will not admit the 2009 plasma are problematic, nor address the issue with a firmware update.
y
In any case, I wanted to make your company aware how this experience has soured my opinion of "THX Certification". I had expected a stamp of approval from your company to imply a certain amount of oversight on your part---the kind of oversight which would prevent such mistakes from occurring. In the future I am unlikely to consider "THX Certification" an asset to any product.

Sincerely,

Ploppity Drown

No one cares, that's the problem and the reason to not purchase a Panasonic, I am sorry for the thousands of people who were screwed by Panasonic.
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post #10374 of 11198 Old 02-08-2011, 11:04 PM
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+1.
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post #10375 of 11198 Old 02-09-2011, 12:13 PM
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I feel worse for the two other people I recommended Panasonic 50" and 42" plasmas to, than I do for myself. I will never recommend Panasonic again to anyone.
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post #10376 of 11198 Old 02-12-2011, 03:28 PM
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The funny thing is, lots of people are blindly pre-ordering the 2011 Panasonic models after all of this. Amazing to me.

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post #10377 of 11198 Old 02-12-2011, 04:33 PM
 
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Short of an exploding panel, some folks will buy anything. ;-)
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post #10378 of 11198 Old 02-15-2011, 12:39 AM
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What is astonishing about this whole thing is that there is still no explanation as to why a technical fix is not possible. You would expect in the normal course of things that a firmware update would be able to fix bugs.

No company, surely, would release an expensive product whose firmware cannot be touched by mass availability updates. Even the best pre production testing can miss bugs and so it is astounding that Panasonic provided no means to correct the worst possible software goof that a television can experience. There are even washing machines on the market that can have their firmware and wash programmes updated by PC link software.

Even taking down the MLL a little bit would be a great improvement.

Some of the posts by D-Nice suggested that a fix was possible but that an engineer install would be needed. That, for reasons of cost, it was not then going to happen. I can't believe that there is no middle ground. The MLL settings have to, surely, be accessible by a user deployable firmware update even if, in terms of risk, Panasonic prefer not to use this method.
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post #10379 of 11198 Old 02-15-2011, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retty View Post

What is astonishing about this whole thing is that there is still no explanation as to why a technical fix is not possible. You would expect in the normal course of things that a firmware update would be able to fix bugs.

No company, surely, would release an expensive product whose firmware cannot be touched by mass availability updates. Even the best pre production testing can miss bugs and so it is astounding that Panasonic provided no means to correct the worst possible software goof that a television can experience. There are even washing machines on the market that can have their firmware and wash programmes updated by PC link software.

Even taking down the MLL a little bit would be a great improvement.

Some of the posts by D-Nice suggested that a fix was possible but that an engineer install would be needed. That, for reasons of cost, it was not then going to happen. I can't believe that there is no middle ground. The MLL settings have to, surely, be accessible by a user deployable firmware update even if, in terms of risk, Panasonic prefer not to use this method.



I totally agree, but if they were going to do anything about it, they would have a long time ago.

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post #10380 of 11198 Old 02-15-2011, 02:19 AM
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I guess this thread scared me enough not to get the 2011 panasonic plasma.

A 2011 LG with nano led and full local dimming might be a better choice.
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