Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 349 - AVS Forum
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post #10441 of 11238 Old 02-22-2011, 09:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Noah View Post

Please note the following reviews:

That review is for the UK model C6900. The C7000/8000 does not have floating black of any kind.


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How can you possibly run Samsung's internal test patterns on a Panasonic?

You use AVSHD709 or any other test disc with a gray ramp pattern.
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post #10442 of 11238 Old 02-22-2011, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post

That review is for the UK model C6900. The C7000/8000 does not have floating black of any kind.

Please cite your references to verify that.

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You use AVSHD709 or any other test disc with a gray ramp pattern.

Why don't you run the same disc on both displays and at least get to an apples-to-apples comparison?
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post #10443 of 11238 Old 02-22-2011, 10:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Noah View Post

Please cite your references to verify that.

There simply haven't been any reports or complaints of floating black level on Samsung C7000/8000 TV's. If you can show me some reports that this problem exists then please do.

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Why don't you run the same disc on both displays and at least get to an apples-to-apples comparison?

They are the same pattern (gray ramp showing gray steps 17-235). The Panasonic can't even produce a smooth gradient on a stationary gray ramp, let alone anything that moves. The C7000/8000 can produce the pattern correctly stationary and in motion.
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post #10444 of 11238 Old 02-22-2011, 11:43 PM
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One site isn't nearly enough to stick the floating black badge of shame on Samsung. Even if it turns out to be the case, it's clearly a non-issue given how people haven't noticed after all this time.
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post #10445 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatic View Post

There simply haven't been any reports or complaints of floating black level on Samsung C7000/8000 TV's.

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Originally Posted by Mastperf View Post

One site isn't nearly enough to stick the floating black badge of shame on Samsung.

These are fallacious arguments. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

I'm not saying those reviews necessarily confirm floating blacks on Samsung, but it should call into question the commonly-held belief that they all do not have floating blacks.

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Even if it turns out to be the case, it's clearly a non-issue given how people haven't noticed after all this time.

It's a non issue on most Panasonics, IMO.
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post #10446 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 08:19 AM
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If Samsung had floating blacks, believe me, you would have heard about it right here at AVS, where ever display is analysed, and critiqued to the max.

The fact that it only HDTest UK only reported seeing it on a lonr display, could mean it was a defective display. Show me a few other floating black reports, and your deduction will have credibility.

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post #10447 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dsskid View Post

If Samsung had floating blacks, believe me, you would have heard about it right here at AVS, where ever display is analysed, and critiqued to the max.

The fact that it only HDTest UK only reported seeing it on a lonr display, could mean it was a defective display. Show me a few other floating black reports, and your deduction will have credibility.

I'm not making a deduction. I'm just relaying these two data points.

Why don't you show me reports that they do not have floating blacks?
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post #10448 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Noah View Post

I'm not making a deduction. I'm just relaying these two data points.

Why don't you show me reports that they do not have floating blacks?

I think the point is that AVS members are infamous for nitpicking every minute flaw so the fact that you rarely or never hear about floating blacks from 'regular' members nor professional calibrators says a lot...not saying there are no floating blacks but if they do exist it is much less of an issue then with Panny

there's no such thing as proving something does not exist...same as in the legal system where the burden of proof is always with the plantiff to prove guilt not for the defendant to prove their innocence
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post #10449 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 09:43 AM
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So, APB was the ONLY reason the VT25 won the shootout comparison and overall #1 spot on cnet in comparison to the 8000 and 7000 and the two LGs?
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post #10450 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by John Kramer View Post

So, APB was the ONLY reason the VT25 won the shootout comparison and overall #1 spot on cnet in comparison to the 8000 and 7000 and the two LGs?

Panasonic fans point to the numerous awards that the VT25 and the fact that CNET said it was still the best looking TV for 2010 even after black levels on it went up over 2X.

Samsung fans say this is a travesty and point to a couple of well known and respected calibrators who have either outright said, or hinted that once calibrated that the C8000 was the better set.

However, the fact that the sets are so close should indicate that either one was a very good choice last year.
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post #10451 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Panasonic fans point to the numerous awards that the VT25 and the fact that CNET said it was still the best looking TV for 2010 even after black levels on it went up over 2X.

Samsung fans say this is a travesty and point to a couple of well known and respected calibrators who have either outright said, or hinted that once calibrated that the C8000 was the better set.

However, the fact that the sets are so close should indicate that either one was a very good choice last year.

I agree that both are good sets. But what i cant understand is the second point. Are the people claiming the VT25 the best not respectable people compared to the ones saying the calibrated sammys are better?

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post #10452 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 10:34 AM
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I agree that both are good sets. But what i cant understand is the second point. Are the people claiming the VT25 the best not respectable people compared to the ones saying the calibrated sammys are better?

Apparently not. Certain people seem to hold tremendous weight in the opinions of certain calibrators, etc, largely because they have a huge reputation and following and have been in the business for many years.

However, everyone's brain is not wired the same way. Two completely competent people who work in the industry can look at two TVs and pick different ones as their personal favorite for "eyeball" effect.

This does not invalidate the opinions of either user.

I believe that a couple of people from the VE shootout panel even said that on paper, and with measurements the C8000 was better than the VT25, but they still preferred the picture of the VT25. Would that hold true if the VT25 MLL goes up to 2.5X as it is expected to do? In the case of CNET the answer was yes, they still thought the VT25 was better all around.

The type of viewing a person does is also a factor. Someone who watches a lot of SD content would probably prefer the Samsung because it has better 2D processing, less image noise, etc.

For someone who watches a lot of 24P content and likes the "film look" the cinemasmooth bug was possibly a deal breaker on the C8000.

For someone who is really into 3D, there was no question that Panasonic's 3D processing, faster phosphors, etc, really made it stand out.

So, like I said, you can't go wrong with either of these sets, but your opinion to choose one over the other very possibly has to do with personal preference, aesthetics, viewing habits, etc.

Which is why the continued barbs against Panasonic are particularly unfounded. You can buy the Panasonic TV knowing that the MLL is going to go up and still be pleased as punch with the set. Maybe your wife will let you buy the VT30 because of the modern clean styling, but says thumbs down to the D8000 because of the stand on it.
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post #10453 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Apparently not. Certain people seem to hold tremendous weight in the opinions of certain calibrators, etc, largely because they have a huge reputation and following and have been in the business for many years.

However, everyone's brain is not wired the same way. Two completely competent people who work in the industry can look at two TVs and pick different ones as their personal favorite for "eyeball" effect.

This does not invalidate the opinions of either user.

I believe that a couple of people from the VE shootout panel even said that on paper, and with measurements the C8000 was better than the VT25, but they still preferred the picture of the VT25. Would that hold true if the VT25 MLL goes up to 2.5X as it is expected to do? In the case of CNET the answer was yes, they still thought the VT25 was better all around.

The type of viewing a person does is also a factor. Someone who watches a lot of SD content would probably prefer the Samsung because it has better 2D processing, less image noise, etc.

For someone who watches a lot of 24P content and likes the "film look" the cinemasmooth bug was possibly a deal breaker on the C8000.

For someone who is really into 3D, there was no question that Panasonic's 3D processing, faster phosphors, etc, really made it stand out.

So, like I said, you can't go wrong with either of these sets, but your opinion to choose one over the other very possibly has to do with personal preference, aesthetics, viewing habits, etc.

Which is why the continued barbs against Panasonic are particularly unfounded. You can buy the Panasonic TV knowing that the MLL is going to go up and still be pleased as punch with the set. Maybe your wife will let you buy the VT30 because of the modern clean styling, but says thumbs D down to the D8000 because of the stand on it.

Who better to trust? Cnet gets a hand picked display to review. Professional calibrators are in the field maximizing each displays potential (multiples of each make and model). Accomplished calibrators can spot reference displays (and flawed ones) better than most people here. Why wouldn't you value their professional opinion? They have nothing to gain by saying one model is better than the other. And what do they get for their effort to inform the forum members? Attacks on their credibility. It's no wonder the best ones are frequenting this forum less and less.

I was at the shootout. The 3D processing was a toss up betwen the Samsung and the Panasonic. Too bad we can't hold a shootout after the panels have aged a year. We'd see some interesting results.

Newsflash, the Cinemasmooth bug was acknowledged and fixed by Samsung? Did Panasonic acknowledge the rising black levels and floating blacks other than to claim they are features? And did they state they were fixed for 2011?

This is the difference. This is why Panasonic's faults keep surfacing.

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post #10454 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 10:59 AM
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Who better to trust? Cnet gets a hand picked display to review. Professional calibrators are in the field maximizing each displays potential (multiples of each make and model). Accomplished calibrators can spot reference displays (and flawed ones) better than most people here. Why wouldn't you value their professional opinion? They have nothing to gain by saying one model is better than the other. And what do they get for their effort to inform the forum members? Attacks on their credibility. It's no wonder the best ones are frequenting this forum less and less.

I was at the shootout. The 3D processing was a toss up betwen the Samsung and the Panasonic. Too bad we can't hold a shootout after the panels have aged a year. We'd see some interesting results.

Newsflash, the Cinemasmooth bug was acknowledged and fixed by Samsung? Did Panasonic acknowledge the rising black levels and floating blacks other than to claim they are features? And did they state they were fixed for 2011?

This is the difference. This is why Panasonic's faults keep surfacing.

Samsung had a floor rep who reported that they "believed" it had been corrected. That's not very reliable info to me. I would be far more concerned about that bug than some of the other stuff that were problematic last year.

Are you saying that most of the professional calibrators believe that the C8000 was the best TV last year? If that is the case, then why did it not win the shootout?

I do agree with you that it would be tremendously helpful to test all of these panels after a year or 18 months of hours being racked onto them. There's nothing to say that this would leave Samsung or other manufacturers unscathed however.

It obviously would be a huge cost for someone like VE who would have nothing to gain in the way of sales, etc, for doing it.

Do you believe that Panasonic has not made any strides in the area of MLL rise in their new sets? I would imagine that they have done something for this year, although obviously we won't know what it is until close to the end of the year when panels rack up large hours.
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post #10455 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Samsung had a floor rep who reported that they "believed" it had been corrected. That's not very reliable info to me. I would be far more concerned about that bug than some of the other stuff that were problematic last year.

At least they acknowledged it, and have said it was fixed. What has Panasonic said about their issues?

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Are you saying that most of the professional calibrators believe that the C8000 was the best TV last year? If that is the case, then why did it not win the shootout?

No that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying you should put more faith in calibrator's reviews than sites sponsored by manufacturers.
We already know what D-Nice thought of the Shootout outcome...
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Originally Posted by D-Nice
Sorry, per my score card, the VT25 was not the winner. Per my card it was right there with the LX9500. You can have Robert pull my card for verification.

I, as well as others, have clearly stated in the past that the VT25 won the shootout because it had a higher APB compared to all other displays there. That can be verified via my posts from that time period.

I know exactly who you are now, including how to are related to Panasonic Why don't you post some raw stats regarding sales that break out OEM vs Panasonic badged sales.

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Originally Posted by D-Nice
Correct. APB (Average Picture Brightness) was the factor.

And go look at Kevin Miller's review of the VT25 at Tweak.com


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I do agree with you that it would be tremendously helpful to test all of these panels after a year or 18 months of hours being racked onto them. There's nothing to say that this would leave Samsung or other manufacturers unscathed however.

It obviously would be a huge cost for someone like VE who would have nothing to gain in the way of sales, etc, for doing it.

Do you believe that Panasonic has not made any strides in the area of MLL rise in their new sets? I would imagine that they have done something for this year, although obviously we won't know what it is until close to the end of the year when panels rack up large hours.

It would be nice to see the results, but will never happen. Robert already goes through enough effort and expense to put on the shootout. It would be unreasonable to expect him to do a followup a year later for the "last year's" models, which would have already have been replaced.

But you're right, both sets are excellent displays, and have the potential to be better.

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post #10456 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 11:23 AM
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Here's what I don't get about the VE shootout: why didn't they calibrate to a peak brightness target?

Or did they do that, but the VT25's APB was still higher due to gamma and/or white crush issues?



IMO, if brightness was such a factor, they should've tried to remove that variable to the extent possible.
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post #10457 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 01:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Apparently not. Certain people seem to hold tremendous weight in the opinions of certain calibrators, etc, largely because they have a huge reputation and following and have been in the business for many years.

However, everyone's brain is not wired the same way. Two completely competent people who work in the industry can look at two TVs and pick different ones as their personal favorite for "eyeball" effect.

This does not invalidate the opinions of either user.

I believe that a couple of people from the VE shootout panel even said that on paper, and with measurements the C8000 was better than the VT25, but they still preferred the picture of the VT25. Would that hold true if the VT25 MLL goes up to 2.5X as it is expected to do? In the case of CNET the answer was yes, they still thought the VT25 was better all around.

The type of viewing a person does is also a factor. Someone who watches a lot of SD content would probably prefer the Samsung because it has better 2D processing, less image noise, etc.

For someone who watches a lot of 24P content and likes the "film look" the cinemasmooth bug was possibly a deal breaker on the C8000.

For someone who is really into 3D, there was no question that Panasonic's 3D processing, faster phosphors, etc, really made it stand out.

So, like I said, you can't go wrong with either of these sets, but your opinion to choose one over the other very possibly has to do with personal preference, aesthetics, viewing habits, etc.

Which is why the continued barbs against Panasonic are particularly unfounded. You can buy the Panasonic TV knowing that the MLL is going to go up and still be pleased as punch with the set. Maybe your wife will let you buy the VT30 because of the modern clean styling, but says thumbs down to the D8000 because of the stand on it.

Panny defenders, untie!
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post #10458 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 01:11 PM
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Panny defenders, untie!

I didn't realize panasonic defenders were tied together.

Sounds uncomfortable.
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post #10459 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Panny defenders, untie!

Well, they don't really need defenders per se, as they are selling quite a lot of TVs regardless of what you or I have to say about them.

I have demoed the VT25 extensively, it is an awesome TV. The VT30 will be even better.

The D8000? Probably a very good TV as well, and potentially better than the VT30, but other things beyond total PQ performance factor into the decision making for me.
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post #10460 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 04:15 PM
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No that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying you should put more faith in calibrator's reviews than sites sponsored by manufacturers.
We already know what D-Nice thought of the Shootout outcome...

I am confused you say to put more faith in the Calibrators & yet they voted the VT25 the best set as did CNET or am I missing something? I really don't care which set is better as I own neither but I am confused by your statement.

And I thought the VT25 used in the shootout had something like 2000 hours on it or did I recall this incorrectly? If they said it scored lower & we didn't like the picture I could accept that.

And as others have said at some point it comes down to what people like as it appears to have happened with the calibrators...
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post #10461 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 04:34 PM
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Cnet has a weird Panny bias...they downgraded the 2009 Panny scores due to the black rise but didn't do the same for 2010 even though the 2010 Samsung's were much better then the 2009 models...let's see what 2011 rankings David K comes up with
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post #10462 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 05:54 PM
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I am confused you say to put more faith in the Calibrators & yet they voted the VT25 the best set as did CNET or am I missing something? I really don't care which set is better as I own neither but I am confused by your statement.

And I thought the VT25 used in the shootout had something like 2000 hours on it or did I recall this incorrectly? If they said it scored lower & we didn't like the picture I could accept that.

And as others have said at some point it comes down to what people like as it appears to have happened with the calibrators...

I was asking myself the same thing.

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post #10463 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 05:57 PM
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The audience picked the VT25. I don't think the calibrators did.

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These are fallacious arguments. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

True. But you don't have any evidence either to show that the C7000/8000 have a floating black level. I have owned both brands and have clearly observed Panasonic's floating behaviour (automatic brightness flickering up/down on low APL scenes - highly noticeable) and none whatsoever on the C7000. Simple as that.

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I'm not saying those reviews necessarily confirm floating blacks on Samsung, but it should call into question the commonly-held belief that they all do not have floating blacks.

Dude, they don't float. Ask any of the calibrators like D-Nice on this forum, not one report of floating on C7000/8000. You're clutching at straws.

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It's a non issue on most Panasonics, IMO.

If it wasn't an issue then why is there this huge thread with all these complaints, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1236475
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post #10465 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 06:47 PM
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These are fallacious arguments. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

I'm not saying those reviews necessarily confirm floating blacks on Samsung, but it should call into question the commonly-held belief that they all do not have floating blacks.

It's a non issue on most Panasonics, IMO.

A single source isn't real evidence either.
The floating blacks on Pansonics are a well known and proven problem for many. We have only 1 source claiming it happens on a Samsung tv . If they too suffer from floating blacks, it's clearly a far better implementation and not an issue.
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post #10466 of 11238 Old 02-23-2011, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Camster View Post

I am confused you say to put more faith in the Calibrators & yet they voted the VT25 the best set as did CNET or am I missing something? I really don't care which set is better as I own neither but I am confused by your statement.

And I thought the VT25 used in the shootout had something like 2000 hours on it or did I recall this incorrectly? If they said it scored lower & we didn't like the picture I could accept that.

And as others have said at some point it comes down to what people like as it appears to have happened with the calibrators...

Ya, I have to wonder how all of these things mysteriously stack against Samsung and they are just getting robbed. Now I will grant that perhaps a two year old VT25 could not beat a 2 year old C8000 under similar testing conditions... but it seems to be a bit of a stretch that VT25 garnered awards and what not because Panasonic is buying off the CE press.
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post #10467 of 11238 Old 02-24-2011, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Samsung had a floor rep who reported that they "believed" it had been corrected. That's not very reliable info to me
I don't believe that a rep would outright lie about a product feature...if they had not fixed the issue or the rep did not know he would have been instructed to give the standard 'No Comment' response or find some other way to sidestep the question without answering it directly...the fact that he said that 'yes the issue has been fixed' leads me to believe that it is in fact fixed
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post #10468 of 11238 Old 02-24-2011, 01:55 AM
 
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I don't believe that a rep would outright lie about a product feature...if they had not fixed the issue or the rep did not know he would have been instructed to give the standard 'No Comment' response or find some other way to sidestep the question without answering it directly...the fact that he said that 'yes the issue has been fixed' leads me to believe that it is in fact fixed
Somebody in the Samsung thread talked to them this week, and they said again that they fixed it.
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post #10469 of 11238 Old 03-08-2011, 05:35 PM
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So how is the hour count stored... I am really tempted to open the set up and see if there is a way to reset through hardware. I find it hard to believe that the MLL needs to be jacked up after ~300 hours. Alternatively, I would like to explore a resistor mod to pull the drive voltage down.

The addiction is taking hold...
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post #10470 of 11238 Old 03-08-2011, 06:17 PM
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After months of waiting, I've found out that my connect no longer works for the company. In other words, the a-board-reset operation which would force temporary restoration of black levels on these panels has come to a complete stop. I was unable to find out how to do this. Sadly. If there's anyone else who ever figures this out, let us know. It involves connecting a computer to the tv and sending it various commands, perhaps if only one.
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