Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 35 - AVS Forum
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post #1021 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

With the correct knowledge, software and equipment yes.

Would a professional calibrator be likely to have the requisite knowledge, software and equipment? A service technician?

Could manual adjustment of the voltage be done via software or would it be necessary to physically access whatever part of the circuitry controls the voltage?

Thank you for finally shedding some light on the cause of this issue, by the way.
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post #1022 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 06:40 PM
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oh man.... this is like overclocking a CPU increasing the voltage 1 by 1 and in the same time watching the heat ... then rising the FSB but not to much because the RAM will be screwed up.... lol. I would do it for the tv but i need more documentation
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post #1023 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2 View Post

Would a professional calibrator be likely to have the requisite knowledge, software and equipment?

No.

Quote:


A service technician?

Depends. Not all are the same.

Quote:


Could manual adjustment of the voltage be done via software or would it be necessary to physically access whatever part of the circuitry controls the voltage?

Thank you for finally shedding some light on the cause of this issue, by the way.

The adjustments are built into the firmware. Certain people may be able to adjust the drive voltage, but they would not be able to stop the pre-defined adjustments.
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post #1024 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 07:38 PM
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If I would reset the internal clock, that is displayed in the SRV-tool, would this bring the black level back to the original values?

Or could I prevent the S10 from my brother to rise the black level, when I reset the clock time after time?
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post #1025 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 07:48 PM
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or maybe to stop the clock but who know how
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post #1026 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 07:50 PM
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I ended up getting a different TV due to this thread, but my Dad has a G10.
Thanks for posting D-Nice, much appreciated.
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post #1027 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 07:50 PM
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I need the EEPROM-Values of a S10 that is only a few hours old. The differences in the memorytable should contain the hours and the minutes of the clock, I guess.
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post #1028 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

or maybe to stop the clock but who know how

I don't think it can be done, if it's possible i want to know how.
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post #1029 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 08:01 PM
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If I am reading this new info from d-nice correctly ... this sounds like a firmware (or eprom) software controllable function.

What that means ... is that no local techs can address the problem ... other than possibly replacing a board where the rom software resides , thereby temporarily resetting the state of the panel to "new" ... but even then the problem would come back in due time.

Really , only software engineers at Panasonic could make the necessary code changes to permanently fix the problem ... only the in house engineers have access to the panel's software source code.

Of course, Panasonic could raise an "Engineering Support" ticket to address the problem ... to create a new software load as a fix ... and supply techs with access to the modified code ... but that is anyones guess as to whether that will EVER happen.

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post #1030 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 08:09 PM
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My guessing is:

If I have a brand new S10, write down the complete EEPROM-Tables and look after a couple of hours, which hexadecimal entries have changed, then I should be able to reset the internal clock via the memory-editor in the SRV-Tool-section of the service menu.
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post #1031 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 08:12 PM
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Just to put things in perspective, here are the measured black level values for my 50X1.





Larry
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post #1032 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 08:27 PM
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I still don't get why this voltage adjustment is necessary as the panel breaks in a bit.
maybe this is just the inheirant nature of plasma displays? Panasonic cannot be the only plasma maker doing this.

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post #1033 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Just to put things in perspective, here are the measured black level values for my 50X1.





Larry

Are you noticing this increase during normal viewing?

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post #1034 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Are you noticing this increase during normal viewing?

I only notice it when I look for it. It is annoying only because the final measurement

on my px60 was 0.032,
on my px75 was 0.019, and
on my px80 was 0.016 ftL.


And my x1 is now at 0.024 ftL.


Larry
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post #1035 of 11198 Old 12-28-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Just to put things in perspective, here are the measured black level values for my 50X1.





Larry

Mine went definitely up out of the sudden and it is very very disturbing..
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post #1036 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 01:04 AM
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Planned obsolescence? -- Is this how Panny intends to destroy their plasma TV division? They must not be concerned about their reputation.

I was thinking about buying a Viera TC-P54V10 P58V10, but not anymore... at least not without STEEP discounting.

Thanks to all for posting this info.
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post #1037 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 03:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

lmao. wow. it's obvious your buttering up your statements. and i attacked you? please refer back to your link and try again. and i made it very obvious i said i read samsung outsourced low quality panels. whether they do or not, i, and only i, made a decision based upon something i read. it's common for corp's to outsource things like that, and it's not uncommon for display models to be cherry picked or in house. anyways, you were very specific in your "attacks" in the other thread, and now you are being more accurate with your generalizations here. and then you come to another thread making false accusations. please refer back to your link, numbnuts. i just got the tv a week ago. my black levels are not defective nor do i fall under your imposed assumptions. if and when my black levels do rise, numbnuts, you can hee and haw all you want at me? fair enough?

Not a very Darn Nice post, please take the HIGH road or are you already?
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post #1038 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 04:34 AM
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His screen name is appropriate

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post #1039 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No.

Depends. Not all are the same.

The adjustments are built into the firmware. Certain people may be able to adjust the drive voltage, but they would not be able to stop the pre-defined adjustments.

So is a firmware fix the true solution? Do you have any current MLL readings for a G10 series? BTW what are the pre-defined adjustments? At what point are they set to kick in?
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post #1040 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I only notice it when I look for it. It is annoying only because the final measurement

on my px60 was 0.032,
on my px75 was 0.019, and
on my px80 was 0.016 ftL.


And my x1 is now at 0.024 ftL.


Larry

Have you seen the same/similar results from a G10 series screen?
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post #1041 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 06:44 AM
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Just talked to local Panasonic service technician.
Initialy he didnt knew nothing about problem as nobody complained before. But after my "tale" he was willing to believe and said that this can be fixed via reseting clock only. There I understood that reseting clock isnt a big problem for him. It can become uncomfortable inviting technician every 200-300 hours though. Also he didnt liked idea of the voltage adjustment.
What other parameters can suffer doing so ? I suppose other preprogramed alterations was necesary ?
I will sadly hold myself from buying either of 09 pannels (was leaning toward v10) until this will be resolwed.

There should be my signature
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post #1042 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 06:49 AM
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I'm just glad to know that the black level rise may stay put.

Hopefully Panasonic does not continue to bump the voltage in firmware, in a way that makes blacks worse over time.

What is the engineering reason for the automatic drive voltage changes?
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post #1043 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 06:56 AM
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So basically, we need someone to hire a hot woman to sleep with a Panasonic FW engineer, get him drunk, and come back to us with a copy of the FW so someone can make some modifications.

Seriously though, I'd be careful getting the voltages adjusted even if it's possible, as they may have done that based on what voltages are the most stable during set periods during a plasma's life (and also to avoid things like IR/BI). Without an official word from someone at Panasonic, it'd be hard to know exactly why they they designed it that way.

There's basically three options:
1) they were unaware of it and are too lazy to fix it
2) they intentionally engineered their plasmas to get worse over time to make people want to upgrade
3) they intentionally engineered their plasmas to operate as best as possible over the course of their life, taking into account the changing phosphors and electric tendencies therein.

So if 1 or 2 are the case, you're fine - but if it's 3, you could potentially fry your set by providing voltage outside the acceptable range for that period of its life. This is speculation though, so maybe someone more knowledgable than I can comment on it.
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post #1044 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 07:44 AM
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thats terrible...how do black levels rise?? Panny just keeps kicking themselves in teh butt this year with these new models. The PQ looks great on them but i guess after day 1 that all changes. Sucks i got rid of my "other" TV, damn buzzing, i hope this can be fixed cuz alot of people seem to like these TV's and I was planning on getting one if some Pioneers arent still round but as long as this issue is still out there i wont be getting any TV's anytime soon. Here an idea for teh TV companies, instead of trying to improve every year why dont you try and make a TV that works and get down one piece of technology before you fiddle and ruin another. Thanks
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post #1045 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

An adjustment is purposeful. What is going on with the 11/12G consumer Panasonics is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The adjustments are built into the firmware. Certain people may be able to adjust the drive voltage, but they would not be able to stop the pre-defined adjustments.

You continue to contradict yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Thanks for the investigation and confirmation D. Like Larry mentioned though, why in the world would they be doing this?

Really????
What is known that wasn't already?
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post #1046 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STILESP113 View Post

thats terrible...how do black levels rise?? Panny just keeps kicking themselves in teh butt this year with these new models. The PQ looks great on them but i guess after day 1 that all changes. Sucks i got rid of my "other" TV, damn buzzing, i hope this can be fixed cuz alot of people seem to like these TV's and I was planning on getting one if some Pioneers arent still round but as long as this issue is still out there i wont be getting any TV's anytime soon. Here an idea for teh TV companies, instead of trying to improve every year why dont you try and make a TV that works and get down one piece of technology before you fiddle and ruin another. Thanks

I would like to add that even with the THX and MLL bugs, this is a damn good panel, after dialed-in, in Custom mode. I still go WOW to my wife, which annoys her to no end. Other picture qualities get better with agea and no TV I have ever seen, other than a KURU in Magnolia, is better.

The Samsung plasma's may have slightly better colors at the start, but who know what happens as they age.

As long a min. black levels do not get worse then they are now, it is a damn good TV.
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post #1047 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 08:11 AM
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You continue to contradict yourself.

Help me out here. Where are you seeing a contradiction within those two statements?
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post #1048 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Help me out here. Where are you seeing a contradiction within those two statements?

I can see where he is coming from with that, but I think that he is over reading into it.

Quote:
An adjustment is purposeful. What is going on with the 11/12G consumer Panasonics is not.

The adjustments are built into the firmware. Certain people may be able to adjust the drive voltage, but they would not be able to stop the pre-defined adjustments.

The adjustments are built into the firmware, VFR thinks that this makes them purposeful, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. They can easily be built into the firmware but are causing an unintentional increase, something Panasonic never expected nor intended. There is probably some other reason that they haven't fixed it.

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post #1049 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

You continue to contradict yourself.

Exactly how am i contradicting myself. Drive voltage adjustments are necessary and happen on most, if not all, plasmas. The pre-defined drive voltage changes are built into the firmware and happen at manufacturer specific display "On" hours. Some people have the capability of changing the drive voltage (like I can on my Kuros). However, no one should touch the voltage controls unless they know exactly how and what they are doing..... any changing the drive voltage settings will not circumvent the pre-defined firmware based drive voltage adjustments.

Panasonic made a goof on how they drive their PDP phosphors. If you don't like/accept what has happened, stop reading these threads.
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post #1050 of 11198 Old 12-29-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I can see where he is coming from with that, but I think that he is over reading into it.



The adjustments are built into the firmware, VFR thinks that this makes them purposeful, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. They can easily be built into the firmware but are causing an unintentional increase, something Panasonic never expected nor intended. There is probably some other reason that they haven't fixed it.

The voltage adjustments are purposeful, and are standard operating procedure.

The black level increases as a result of the adjustments are not.

At least, that's what I took away from D-Nice's statements.
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