Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 353 - AVS Forum
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post #10561 of 11198 Old 04-16-2011, 05:11 PM
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It's already been done to my v-10 before. I was an idiot and never asked how to do it by the guy I know who worked as a tech. He disappeared and I have no access to anyone "in the know" anymore.

It's a standard procedure when given proper instructions would not wind up bricking any tv's, I'm sure. If someone has access to a tech, any tech, without saying "why" - ask them how it's done, and the problem is solved.
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post #10562 of 11198 Old 04-19-2011, 07:16 PM
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congrats. don't spend all of your winnings in one place. lol
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post #10563 of 11198 Old 04-21-2011, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kramer View Post

It's already been done to my v-10 before. I was an idiot and never asked how to do it by the guy I know who worked as a tech. He disappeared and I have no access to anyone "in the know" anymore.

It's a standard procedure when given proper instructions would not wind up bricking any tv's, I'm sure. If someone has access to a tech, any tech, without saying "why" - ask them how it's done, and the problem is solved.

Well thanks a LOT, man!

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Originally Posted by John Kramer View Post

Bottom line - If I decrease the lifespan of my v-10 by 5 years it will be worth it if I can get my black levels back for a year or two.

I would love to make this tradeoff myself as well.
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post #10564 of 11198 Old 04-23-2011, 09:38 AM
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I'm sitting at a friends house watching his Samsung 52" B series CFL backlit LCD (at factory settings) and it runs circles around my G10. I guess my black levels have gotten that bad. I'm at a loss what to do. My TV technically is functioning properly but just looks horrible in comparison, do I try to get a tech to come out or just write this TV off as a complete loss? I've been able to get the wife to sign off on moving it to the bedroom but it seems like such a waste to replace a TV that's only about 18 months old. I can say that this will be my last Panasonic. This whole black level debacle has cost them another customer for life. I tried to tell myself that my G10 was still a good display even with its problems but today has completely changed my mind, my TV is a POS.

Rant over....
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post #10565 of 11198 Old 04-23-2011, 11:15 AM
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Are the lights on? Many basic lcds look like they have deep blacks with the lights on (esp at default settings with contrast jacked up) but won't retain that with lights low wacthing a movie.

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post #10566 of 11198 Old 04-23-2011, 12:08 PM
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It's more the depth and reality of the picture, my TV just looks so flat now. When we first got it, it had a "looking out a window" quality. Now it looks on par with the $200 little LCD in my guest room and about the same as my 7 year old EDTV plasma. On top of that' the image retention is at a whole new level of bad. My old EDTV has zero problems with IR and shows no burn in after all this time. I did baby at first but really have not in the last few years. I just bought the cheapo Insigna/Samsung 720P plasma for my Mother for X-mas and it also looks much better than my G10. Maybe it's just time to quit complaining and use it as an excuse to upgrade to 3D. I guess I just keep hoping someone will come up with a fix/reset to make my TV perform the way it did when I purchased it.
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post #10567 of 11198 Old 04-23-2011, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdolen View Post

It's more the depth and reality of the picture, my TV just looks so flat now. When we first got it, it had a "looking out a window" quality. Now it looks on par with the $200 little LCD in my guest room and about the same as my 7 year old EDTV plasma. On top of that' the image retention is at a whole new level of bad. My old EDTV has zero problems with IR and shows no burn in after all this time. I did baby at first but really have not in the last few years. I just bought the cheapo Insigna/Samsung 720P plasma for my Mother for X-mas and it also looks much better than my G10. Maybe it's just time to quit complaining and use it as an excuse to upgrade to 3D. I guess I just keep hoping someone will come up with a fix/reset to make my TV perform the way it did when I purchased it.

Before you totally give up on this tv download this calibration disc for free and do yourself a basic set-up. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496 You can do Contrast, Brightness, sharpness, color and tint. Actually you need color filters for the color and tint. If you want a calibration disc with color filters there are a couple of options. For about $25 you can use DVE or Spears&Munsil. Just by setting contrast and brightness correctly you should see a nice difference. What picture mode are you using? Have you tried D-nice settings? Have you turned off all unnecessary enhancements? You should either be in CUSTOM or THX mode. All others aren't very accurate.
I own a V10 and I feel your pain with the rising black level. There will be no fix from Panasonic unfortunately.

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post #10568 of 11198 Old 04-23-2011, 01:30 PM
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If were talking about the B8500 Samsung LCD isnt that one of the best TV's on the market? I've read reviews that has it holding its own next to a Kuro so that might be why you expect more out of your set? Ask what model his TV is.
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post #10569 of 11198 Old 04-23-2011, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51

Before you totally give up on this tv download this calibration disc for free and do yourself a basic set-up. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496 You can do Contrast, Brightness, sharpness, color and tint. Actually you need color filters for the color and tint. If you want a calibration disc with color filters there are a couple of options. For about $25 you can use DVE or Spears&Munsil. Just by setting contrast and brightness correctly you should see a nice difference. What picture mode are you using? Have you tried D-nice settings? Have you turned off all unnecessary enhancements? You should either be in CUSTOM or THX mode. All others aren't very accurate.
I own a V10 and I feel your pain with the rising black level. There will be no fix from Panasonic unfortunately.
Yeah man. Make sure your settings are as best as you can get them. Use bias lighting, the g10 is still a good tv. It still maintains 1080 lines of resolution that LCD does not do, probably. Unless its 240hz. Oh, and off angle that LCD sucks most likely too. Something your tv doesn't have to worry about.
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post #10570 of 11198 Old 04-24-2011, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdolen View Post

It's more the depth and reality of the picture, my TV just looks so flat now. When we first got it, it had a "looking out a window" quality. Now it looks on par with the $200 little LCD in my guest room and about the same as my 7 year old EDTV plasma. On top of that' the image retention is at a whole new level of bad. My old EDTV has zero problems with IR and shows no burn in after all this time. I did baby at first but really have not in the last few years. I just bought the cheapo Insigna/Samsung 720P plasma for my Mother for X-mas and it also looks much better than my G10. Maybe it's just time to quit complaining and use it as an excuse to upgrade to 3D. I guess I just keep hoping someone will come up with a fix/reset to make my TV perform the way it did when I purchased it.

Hehe quite much agree with you, i already spend many days trying to fix the blacks of my pz85, even managed to kill the tv once, by adjusting a pot without a insulated screw driver (lol pot looked like plastic, but had metal inside).
At least in that matter panasonic support was ok, since they send me a replacement component i thought i killed, which was normally only available in Japan. I paid them 20 euro for 2 of those and got my tv back running as before.

Then i started hacking the firmware, with no real avail either. I still have some ways to get further in, by writing bash scripts which i can load, but i kinda gave up wasting time on it. (especially after the near death of it).

So at the moment ill just keep it, till there are decent 3d tvs, and upgrade then.
So yea, no pannie for me again, especially since my tv still has a 'flickering color' bug, which pannie fixed for USA models, but not for the european model.. asked them 2x by mail to send me the latest firmware but they didnt.

I guess people just expect more if they pay 1500+ euro on a tv. Otherwise i can just buy ****** ones every 2 years, and end up with better image quality and reserve tvs.
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post #10571 of 11198 Old 04-24-2011, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post


Before you totally give up on this tv download this calibration disc for free and do yourself a basic set-up. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496 You can do Contrast, Brightness, sharpness, color and tint. Actually you need color filters for the color and tint. If you want a calibration disc with color filters there are a couple of options. For about $25 you can use DVE or Spears&Munsil. Just by setting contrast and brightness correctly you should see a nice difference. What picture mode are you using? Have you tried D-nice settings? Have you turned off all unnecessary enhancements? You should either be in CUSTOM or THX mode. All others aren't very accurate.
I own a V10 and I feel your pain with the rising black level. There will be no fix from Panasonic unfortunately.

I have all the calibration discs, been there, done that. Was a custom installer/HT salesman in a past life. Like everyone else, I'm just disappointed that my Ferrari is really a Yugo after a few years of use. Day one, this TV was stunning, now it's mediocre. I guess I just wanted to share my disappointment with an empathetic crowd. I had learned to live with it until my wife asked me yesterday why our TV didn't look nearly as good as our friends and she normally could not care less. Basically, if she noticed then there is a glaring difference. After some research, anything I would replace it with is close to 2k so it's going to stay but I don't think I will ever be able to accept its flaws and really ever have faith in Panasonic again. Sorry for adding to this never dying thread.
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post #10572 of 11198 Old 04-24-2011, 08:22 AM
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Mh. Should I calculate the On/Off MLL or the ANSI MLL in my gamma formula?
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post #10573 of 11198 Old 05-05-2011, 06:22 AM
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Amen to that. Like a lot a people on this site I get asked to recommend several TVs a year. Panasonic is not on that list anymore. In my opinion, you can't trust their manufacturing and design and you can't rely on their customer support to fix problems.
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post #10574 of 11198 Old 05-05-2011, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1701b View Post

Amen to that. Like a lot a people on this site I get asked to recommend several TVs a year. Panasonic is not on that list anymore. In my opinion, you can't trust their manufacturing and design and you can't rely on their customer support to fix problems.

lol okay whatever you say b/c Panasonic is the only company that has problems not Samsung and their panel lottery right? Please son theres a reason why Panasonic is king.
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post #10575 of 11198 Old 05-05-2011, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1701b View Post

Amen to that. Like a lot a people on this site I get asked to recommend several TVs a year. Panasonic is not on that list anymore. In my opinion, you can't trust their manufacturing and design and you can't rely on their customer support to fix problems.

And your qualifications are ?

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post #10576 of 11198 Old 05-05-2011, 10:28 AM
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I think he had a 54V10 so... But the same thing can be said about Samsung from what I gather. For instance, the thought of getting an internally cracked screen then no warranty for that would be a recommending disaster.
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post #10577 of 11198 Old 05-17-2011, 02:36 PM
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I was sold on the ST30 but ended up with a Samsung C630 46" instead. I am very impressed with it's blacks and it was much cheaper on sale. I sit in a totally black room and even then the amount of show through is amazing.

I would have loved the ST30 but got scared off.
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post #10578 of 11198 Old 05-17-2011, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithw1975 View Post

I was sold on the ST30 but ended up with a Samsung C630 46" instead. I am very impressed with it's blacks and it was much cheaper on sale. I sit in a totally black room and even then the amount of show through is amazing.

I would have loved the ST30 but got scared off.

I'm not sure what that exact model and panel produce, but it's probably not too far off from a (new) ST30 in MLL and CR. HDTVTest measured the native MLL of 40C580 at ~0.008fL (ANSI) and ~0.005fL full field (auto dimmed). This is of course going to depend what you've got your back light set to. The ST30 is generally accepted to be somewhere around 0.008fL.
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post #10579 of 11198 Old 05-18-2011, 09:52 AM
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I got the best settings for my AA06 panel at a UK site. They look fantastic and it measured the blacks at .01fl with the backlight set at 4.

So in reality I am guessing the ST30 wouldn't be much different or may even get worse if the black level problem does still exist?

Does anyone know exactly why the black levels change? Is it something that is inherent to PDP or is it a design problem?
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post #10580 of 11198 Old 05-18-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithw1975 View Post

I got the best settings for my AA06 panel at a UK site. They look fantastic and it measured the blacks at .01fl with the backlight set at 4.

So in reality I am guessing the ST30 wouldn't be much different or may even get worse if the black level problem does still exist?

Does anyone know exactly why the black levels change? Is it something that is inherent to PDP or is it a design problem?

Its inherent with Panasonic plasmas.

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post #10581 of 11198 Old 05-18-2011, 10:45 AM
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I've had my 50G10 for over a year now and am still happy with it, of course I did install bias lighting as a preemptive strike. Hopefully that will hide the rising black level enough that I don't feel the need to buy another $1500 TV...that will really piss me off.

Boom
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post #10582 of 11198 Old 05-18-2011, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by degobah77 View Post

I've had my 50G10 for over a year now and am still happy with it, of course I did install bias lighting as a preemptive strike. Hopefully that will hide the rising black level enough that I don't feel the need to buy another $1500 TV...that will really piss me off.

I'm with you there didnt stop me from buying a Panny

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post #10583 of 11198 Old 05-18-2011, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithw1975 View Post

I got the best settings for my AA06 panel at a UK site. They look fantastic and it measured the blacks at .01fl with the backlight set at 4.

So in reality I am guessing the ST30 wouldn't be much different or may even get worse if the black level problem does still exist?

Does anyone know exactly why the black levels change? Is it something that is inherent to PDP or is it a design problem?

No one can confirm (yet), but D-Nice maintains the 14G's will still rise. He stops short of quantifying it though, so when or how far is entirely up in the air. He blames the "why" on Panasonic's driving method--"Real Black Drive". The irony is lost on no one, I'm sure.
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post #10584 of 11198 Old 05-22-2011, 02:19 AM
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Only Samsung have confirmed "officially" at CES their black levels are stable,
so there you ve the answer
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post #10585 of 11198 Old 05-23-2011, 08:30 AM
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Since the black level issue is related to the initialization voltage, could you use a Variac (http://www.variac.com/) to lower the voltage going to the TV? I'm no engineer, so someone else with the proper technical background might be able to determine if this would lower the MLL, and if there would be any negative side effects such as lower overall brightness, possible pixel misfiring, etc.
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post #10586 of 11198 Old 05-23-2011, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TC in EC View Post

Since the black level issue is related to the initialization voltage, could you use a Variac (http://www.variac.com/) to lower the voltage going to the TV? I'm no engineer, so someone else with the proper technical background might be able to determine if this would lower the MLL, and if there would be any negative side effects such as lower overall brightness, possible pixel misfiring, etc.

NO, that would not work: the adjustment is for a particular circuit only

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post #10587 of 11198 Old 05-23-2011, 01:15 PM
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Others (including myself) have attempted to adjust certain adjustment pots on certain boards on certain generations... With some limited success... But ultimately deemed it as not worth the limited mll decrease with potential pixel misfiring, ect. These panels were designed to work they way they work, lowing the voltage can and certainly might cause reliability problems. Unfortunately.
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post #10588 of 11198 Old 05-23-2011, 03:30 PM
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Oh well, it was worth a shot. Guitar players (including, most famously, Eddie Van Halen) have used Variacs for years on tube amplifiers with great results, so I was hoping there might be a glimmer of hope there. Guess I'll just need to stick with the bias lighting!
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post #10589 of 11198 Old 05-26-2011, 05:12 AM
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hello,

i don't have enough time to read the hole thread, i plan to buy an cheap 50PZ80. but of course i have doubts about the rising black level.

is black level potentiometer mode possible with the PZ80 ?

anyone has experience with this ?

regards
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post #10590 of 11198 Old 05-26-2011, 09:38 AM
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don't have time to repeat the whole thread, but if the price is right, does it really matter?

Seriously though, as stated even just a few posts back, no solution proposed to date, ultimately, has been believed to be "worth the risk/effort" in the long run. If you're getting such a great deal on a good screen, does it even matter? Have a dim lamp on in the room and your eyes probably won't even notice any "risen blacks." Works for us, and countless others.

If you absolutely must have the absolute blackest blacks for the life of the product, then you wouldn't be looking to save a few bucks. You'd probably be looking at a Kuro or the like.

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