Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 358 - AVS Forum
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post #10711 of 11201 Old 05-21-2012, 03:11 PM
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Alright that makes a little more sense. I would assume the poster lives in one of those areas then as he said he has a px70. You made it sound like they don't exist 0o. What review sites would you most reccomend? I usually just find whatever tv i'm looking into on as many review sites as i can so i can get a good average. The ones that actually post measurements that seem to pop up the most are cnet and television info.
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post #10712 of 11201 Old 05-21-2012, 03:42 PM
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Yes, I'm from the UK. The PX70 screen size I had was the 37 inch. I think Panasonic ceased making 37 inch Plasma screens last year?

Not sure if anyone in the states has heard of the LG 32 inch plasma screen that was released in 2008?

Just wondered how LG black levels compare to the Panasonics? I hear that the 'va' panel drive voltage could be tweaked, which gave stunning black levels. I must admit tweaking the 'va' control in my Panasonic and did notice an improvement, but an improvement that was hardly noticeable.

What voltages are changed with the Panasonic automatic aging compensator? I kind of think that Panasonic cheat in respect to getting pure black levels, as I have observered the 'Floating black' effect, which appears to be a slow reacting processing, that only reduces the accuracy of a display???? Only guessing...
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post #10713 of 11201 Old 05-21-2012, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I'm always open to good reliable review sites though.
What do you reccomend?


You might find some basic PX75U settings here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=843204.

If I remember correctly, we were not posting service menu grayscale adjustment values (or offset values) back then.

Larry
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post #10714 of 11201 Old 05-21-2012, 04:53 PM
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From what i read on the black level tweak thread for lg's most of the users were tweaking because the plasmas had poor blacks to begin with. A few select models actually got down to pretty deep mlls (0.012 cd) but the biggest complaints on that thread are of noise and inaccuracies in the deepest shades of black, as well as pixel misfires. I suppose if you could find one of the decent models for a couple hundred or so used, it would be a decent project display. Did you witness a rise in mll on your panasonic or did you buy it used?
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post #10715 of 11201 Old 05-21-2012, 05:01 PM
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Thanks for the link Larry but Mine's a px80u, i've been trying to sell it though cause it's no where near deep enough for me. I wouldn't want to do anything to screw it up before i sell it so i haven't touched the service menu. I noticed a slight green/orange push but the tint control took care of it, really nice color otherwise compared to what i've owned before (alot more subtle shades).
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post #10716 of 11201 Old 05-21-2012, 06:47 PM
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For those interested in what what older models (few years back) had for their minimum luminance level, I find the first page of this thread interesting to look at.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=418113
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post #10717 of 11201 Old 05-22-2012, 12:55 PM
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I bought this display second hand. In the UK small is best, due to our small houses. If I'm not mistaken, the px80 was the last 37inch plasma. Even though LCD displays are improving, and bettering plasma in black levels, there are plenty more areas that plasma displays excel in pq. My Sony is a fantastic plasma, only missing out the deep blacks of crt. However, the bias lighting kills the black issues. I'm toying with getting a secondhand 32inch HD LG plasma, as it appears they can be tweaked to get black levels very near to crt.
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post #10718 of 11201 Old 05-22-2012, 02:57 PM
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Most lcd's aren't battering plasmas at all. Only local dimming sets can get darker
and they start at around 2000$. You have to take into account the panel tech used on lcd's as well. I don't think a 32" HDTV plasma exist, I've heard of the 32" lg your referring to and it's an edtv 852x480 resolution which means a lot less detail. You also have to take into account that lg aren't doing very well compared to other brands with dark shadow detail, accuracy and video noise, which basically means tweaked lg's have relatively deep blacks but not very good blacks overall. I personally wouldn't pay for an edtv as they just aren't worth more than 40-50$. Decent samsungs are dirt cheap over here in Canada and start out with a good deep black that I would find acceptable. Good luck on your search
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post #10719 of 11201 Old 05-22-2012, 04:15 PM
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In Europe LG developed the 32pg6000, which, although not full HD, had an native resolution 720 lines. It was produced in 2008
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post #10720 of 11201 Old 05-22-2012, 08:41 PM
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We'll ya learn something new everyday
I can only imagine it was a incredible pain to fit 1024x768 pixels on a 32 inch screen. I wuldn't think they would have sold alot of them. Have you found one used for a decent price? You can get 42 inch lg plasmas used for around 300 in my area, which puts it just outside my price range as a project display.
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post #10721 of 11201 Old 05-23-2012, 03:00 PM
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The LG 32inch plasma is very desirable here in the UK. You don't see many around and when you do they are still fairly pricey.

42inch would leave most UK householders cramped in their small living rooms.

For now, I'm going to do some more tweaking on the Panasonic. Just wondered if there are the 'Ramp' controls that are mentioned in the LG forum for better black levels?
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post #10722 of 11201 Old 05-23-2012, 04:22 PM
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Hmmmm...Just been reading 'Zero black level PDP research' and from what I have read, the Panasonic black level issues all revolve around the manufacturer trying to achieve high efficiency, reducing power consumption. This must be in relation to the 'eco' movement.

Other manufacturer Plasma screens may not provide the deep blacks that Panasonic achieve, but Panasonic blacks are artificial, which gives the 'floating black' effect.

I think I would rather opt for a display that has natural, consistent blacks, that does not rely on artificial processing to shift the black level in such a poor way that it becomes a distraction.

It appears that Pioneer do not use artificial processing to achieve deeper black, rather, they have re-designed the actual plasma panel structure.

At the end of the day, power consumption is the selling point. Power consumption will be the selling point for OLED screens.
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post #10723 of 11201 Old 05-24-2012, 12:23 PM
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That seems kinda odd to me
If the voltages going to the plasma cells increases like it does on the panasonics to much higher voltages i would imagine it would be far less efficient and negatively impact the life of the panel. I'd imagine those 32 inchers do cost alot, it was probably never cost effective for lg to create them in the first place. I'd easily drop 1000$ on a decent pioneer kuro but i'll likely never find one at that price or anywhere near the $500 i actually want to spend on a decent plasma.
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post #10724 of 11201 Old 05-24-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

Other manufacturer Plasma screens may not provide the deep blacks that Panasonic achieve, but Panasonic blacks are artificial, which gives the 'floating black' effect.

I think I would rather opt for a display that has natural, consistent blacks, that does not rely on artificial processing to shift the black level in such a poor way that it becomes a distraction.

No.

Panasonid did this 2010. They did it not 2010 with G14 and they do it not with G15 this year.

So, they awesome blacks are not artificial anymore.
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post #10725 of 11201 Old 05-24-2012, 02:27 PM
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What exactly is the floating black phenomenon everyone is talking about? Is it a form of dynamic contrast where the panel can't show as deep a black when there is more light on the screen?
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post #10726 of 11201 Old 05-24-2012, 05:02 PM
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Floating black...hard to describe. It's noticeable on films with cinemascope black bars. The picture content doesn't necessarily need to be full white screen. The effect is like someone altering the brightness control to suit the on screen image. Yes, and the response is slow. I remember the days of crt with poorly implement ABL which fed back into the brightness circuit, so when a bright science came up the black level would drop big time. Some manufacturers then started feeding back into the contrast circuit, which gave a more acceptable picture. In one of the patents from Panasonic, they state that black level would take priority over picture quality? Makes me wonder? I'll see if I can dig that patent out
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post #10727 of 11201 Old 05-24-2012, 08:27 PM
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I'm curious if anyone has measured mll on a 2010 Panasonic beyond 2000 hours?

My March 2010 build G25 has more than 6500 hours (used ~9 hours a day), the black level looks brighter compared to new (I don't have tools to measure; just veiwing high contrast demos) but I wonder how high it might get.

The OP shows 0.012 as the highest measured G series from 2010. The final 3x rise predicted, would put it at ~0.018 I think.

I use my display in a moderatly bright environment so it still has a bit of "pop" and this display gets plenty bright so the perception of deep blacks also appears in some scenes.

It would be disapointing if the blacks were to rise much more. I just don't know if they would have stopped already with so many hours on my display.

Are other 2010 Panasonic owners still happy with their display's black level?
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post #10728 of 11201 Old 05-24-2012, 09:02 PM
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I am definitely not happy. I have European 42GT20. I will post measurements later.
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post #10729 of 11201 Old 05-28-2012, 07:54 AM
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Anyone have an idea of whether or not the higher voltages in the risen panels will negatively impact panel life? I know they claim 100000 hours but i can just imagine mass panel failure after 5-10 years and another uproar starting
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post #10730 of 11201 Old 06-01-2012, 01:14 PM
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you can modify the time (number of hours) and number of ON/OFF, in service menu... may help to restore black level for begining...
I have panasonic plasma TX-P42V10E
press volume- on tv, an press 0 0 0 on remote
select svr tool
in right column, in last blank space if press mute for 3 seconds, will see time and numbers of on/off.
in right column in FIRST BLANK SPACE , (in the top) if press mute for 3 seconds, will see MEMORY EDITOR....
PRESS OK...
will see a menu with four memories in left column
in the third line is EEPROM (PEAKS)
at adress 6CF and 6D0 is number of hours in hexa, and
at adress 6CB and 6CC is number of on/off in hexa
you can modify the values
i have 04430:00 hours, in hexa is 11 4E
at adress 6CF is value 4E an at adress 6D0 is value 11
i put at 6CF value 01 and at 6D0 value 00
finally a have one hour on the last space in right column.
may be the modification, is usefull for restore initial black level
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post #10731 of 11201 Old 06-01-2012, 04:40 PM
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Great first post. Not sure if this will work on a US tv.
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post #10732 of 11201 Old 06-03-2012, 02:14 AM
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Reset post looks good. Just to clarify the 'floating blacks' issue. This only occurs on a bright screen. So, if you start with a black screen and add a white windows display, the black level gets worse. Hope that makes sense? Would be nice if this auto brightness could somehow be switched off
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post #10733 of 11201 Old 06-03-2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plop View Post

you can modify the time (number of hours) and number of ON/OFF, in service menu... may help to restore black level for begining...
I have panasonic plasma TX-P42V10E
press volume- on tv, an press 0 0 0 on remote
select svr tool
in right column, in last blank space if press mute for 3 seconds, will see time and numbers of on/off.
in right column in FIRST BLANK SPACE , (in the top) if press mute for 3 seconds, will see MEMORY EDITOR....
PRESS OK...
will see a menu with four memories in left column
in the third line is EEPROM (PEAKS)
at adress 6CF and 6D0 is number of hours in hexa, and
at adress 6CB and 6CC is number of on/off in hexa
you can modify the values
i have 04430:00 hours, in hexa is 11 4E
at adress 6CF is value 4E an at adress 6D0 is value 11
i put at 6CF value 01 and at 6D0 value 00
finally a have one hour on the last space in right column.
may be the modification, is usefull for restore initial black level

This has been discussed several (many) times. Reseting clock or on/off counters does nothing with black level. Only A board reset (performed by pana technician) can temporarily restore the black level (until the counters hit the programmed increments again).

Panasonic plasma black level restoration
Step-by-step guide for restoring the initial MLL on a Panasonic G10 plasma
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post #10734 of 11201 Old 06-06-2012, 05:46 PM
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If you know at what adress of one of four memory, " A board " read data for number of hours, you can modify , the value of that data, and restore black level, and repeat once / year this...
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post #10735 of 11201 Old 06-16-2012, 02:52 PM
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I've managed to reset the counters as plop suggested but saw no improved black levels, unfortunately. But it's a valuable information - how to access EEPROM. Maybe someone can even find an address for voltage...
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post #10736 of 11201 Old 08-30-2012, 10:01 AM
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I don't know if there is still someone interested in this, but I was able to fix this issue smile.gif . I don't know if my black levels are completely reset, but there is an improvement.

Here is what I did:
  1. Remove the rear cover and rear terminal cover, so you can access the A-Board
  2. There is a 11 pin connector for factory adjustment. connect an i2c master (I used an AVR with my own firmware) to pin 8 and 9 and pull 10 to GND, which will mute other masters on the bus.
  3. The panel eeprom has the address 0xa0 but is unfortunately write protected. Remove the write protection by pulling the following VIA to GND (I used a thin wire).
  4. Now we can write to the eeprom. the panel aging is saved from 0x0001 to 0x0006 (right at the beginning cool.gif ). Just set these 6 bytes to zero and you're finished. Note that this is not the same clock as in the PEAKS EEPROM, which was already reset by other users with no effect.

I don't have much time now, but if there is interest in this i can write a more detailed HOW-TO. Perhaps we can find even more settings in this EEPROM.

Here is the result:




Thanks to everyone in this thread for valuable information!!
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post #10737 of 11201 Old 08-30-2012, 10:24 AM
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What an incredible 1st post!

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post #10738 of 11201 Old 08-30-2012, 10:45 AM
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What an incredible 1st post!

Agreed! This could be the post of the year

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post #10739 of 11201 Old 08-30-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clktmr View Post

I don't have much time now, but if there is interest in this i can write a more detailed HOW-TO. Perhaps we can find even more settings in this EEPROM.

Please PLEASE PLEASE give us a more detailed how-to. Also, if you could mention what model you did your modification on, and whether it would be applicable to other Panasonic models.

Thanks for a great post!

That which may be known of God is evident within man, for God has shown it to them, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20)
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post #10740 of 11201 Old 08-30-2012, 11:24 AM
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I keep checking the calendar to make sure it's not April 1st! wink.gif This is amazing and unexpected news -- if you post a detailed How-To guide, you will surely go down in AVS history! THANK YOU!
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