Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 359 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10741 of 11930 Old 08-30-2012, 11:55 AM
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You could start your own business resetting black levels, $100 a pop and I'll be your first customer!
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post #10742 of 11930 Old 08-30-2012, 12:11 PM
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Best post, ever. Made quite a difference. Mucho kudos.

A couple of questions:
1. How long can we expect this fix to last?
2. Will performing the fix mean that all other settings will have to be changed? Or, if not which ones?
3. And just out of pure curiosity, how did you figure this one out? What is your field of expertise?
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post #10743 of 11930 Old 08-30-2012, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster View Post

Best post, ever. Made quite a difference. Mucho kudos.

Wow, nice that you were able to get this to work on your TC-P50V10.

IC9003 pin 10 is marked "P20" in the service manual, and this chip appears to be used on Panasonic 2008 plasmas and newer.

That which may be known of God is evident within man, for God has shown it to them, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20)
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post #10744 of 11930 Old 08-30-2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwil View Post

Also, if you could mention what model you did your modification on, and whether it would be applicable to other Panasonic models.
This was done on a TX-P42S10 from germany, I don't know the model number in other countries. I'm pretty sure that this will work on all the models of that generation. I also guess that current generations use i2c bus too, but perhaps there are differences in EEPROM addresses and layout/design.
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Originally Posted by flycaster View Post

1. How long can we expect this fix to last?
2. Will performing the fix mean that all other settings will have to be changed? Or, if not which ones?
3. And just out of pure curiosity, how did you figure this one out? What is your field of expertise?

The clock will start from zero, so you need to do this again after your blacks rise again. But I am thinking about an ATtiny which I would program to reset the value periodically, eg. once an hour. The only Problem is the write protection of the EEPROM. Without the write protection there wouldn't be a reason to open the case, everything could be done from the adjusment connector. Im sure there is a way to disable the write protection over the service connector, but i couldn't figure out how.
No other settings are affected by this, you just set the age of your panel. But it is possible that setting the panels age has influence on other voltages too, because this value is used to configure the panels processor each time you switch your tv on.
I am studying electronic and information technologies with focus on telecommunications. With the service manual and schematics it was really straight forward to hook into the i2c bus. At first I used an AVR to monitor the bus. I was able to see when which part of the EEPROM was written or read. Then I dumped the hole EEPROM, waited a few minutes, switched TV on/off and dumped it again. I compared the different dumps with a diff viewer and found the clock quickly.

I really hope that some of you dump their EEPROMS too. By comparing them we could find more values for tweaking. And we could test alot, because I don't think we need to be afraid of bricking our TVs, since we can flash the original hexfile into the EEPROM whenever we want. By the way, the PEAKS EEPROM (digital video processing) and the STANDBY EEPROM are also accessible over the i2c bus, but I just dumped them, didn't try to tweak anything yet...

I will write a HOW-TO this weekend, but be aware that you will need an i2c master for this. I am glad to see you still interested in this!
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post #10745 of 11930 Old 09-03-2012, 02:53 PM
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[HOW-TO] Resetting the panels age

This How-To applies to the TX-P42S10 model, in the hope it applies to other models too.
  1. Disassembly: Remove the screws you can see in the picture and remove the rear cover.

    Remove the claw on the top of the side terminal, then remove the side terminal.

    Remove the screws you can see in the picture and remove the rear terminal cover. The location of the adjustment connector is marked red.
  2. You should now see the following adjustment connector:

    I found a matching counterpiece in an old DVD-player, but it's up to you how you connect to it. The pin assignment is (from the top):
    Code:
    1 +5V
    2 SRQ (probably Service Request)
    3 GND
    4 GENX8_SCL (STBY EEPROM)
    5 GENX8_SDA (STBY EEPROM)
    6 PEAKS_SCL (PEAKS EEPROM)
    7 PEAKS_SDA (PEAKS EEPROM)
    8 PANEL_SCL (PANEL EEPROM)
    9 PANEL_SDA (PANEL EEPROM)
    10 I2C_CONT
    11 D_PCB_MODE (Process Control Block or Printed Circuit Board?)
    

    You now need an i2c master, a device which can read and write on an i2c bus. I used an ATmega which I programmed by myself, I will release the source code on request. But perhaps you can find something on google. Try searching for "USB i2c interface". This is german, but as an example:
    http://www.elv.de/usb-i2c-interface-komplettbausatz-inkl-gehaeuse-bearbeitet-und-bedruckt-usb-kabel-3-anschlusskabel.html/refid/googlebase
    The i2c bus (aka two wire interface) consists of the SCL and SDA lines. As you can see, there are three different busses. On each bus are multiple devices, each with it's own address. But on each of the three there is an EEPROM with the address 0xa0. Reading from an EEPROM is done by addressing it and then writing two bytes which contain the position you want to read. Next, address the EEPROM in read mode and read as much bytes as you want. You can now verify if your i2c master works by connecting it to the PEAKS or STBY EEPROM and read something. As you can see these EEPROMS also in the Service Menu, you can check if you're doing it right. For reading from position 1, write 0x00 0x01 to the EEPROM, then start reading.
  3. Now, connect your i2c master to the PANELS EEPROM. Then connect I2C_CONT to GND, so no other masters will talk on the bus. Since the EEPROM is write protected, you need to connect the following VIA to GND. You can find it on the top-left of your A-Board.

    But be careful, connecting something else to GND can damage your hardware. So I suggest attaching a thin wire to the VIA while the TV is switched off and connecting it to GND while writing to the EEPROM. You should also recheck if this VIA is attached to the EEPROM if you are using another TV model.
    If the write protection VIA and I2C_CONT are grounded, you can start writing to the EEPROM. Writing is similar to reading, first start an i2c transfer by addressing the EEPROM (0xa0), then write the position where you want to write (0x00 0x01), then write the new bytes (0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00). This will set the bytes one to six to zero. These bytes contain your Panels age. To check if you were successful, read the bytes out again. You should see an improvement on your black level after switching the TV off and on again.

I hope this will help anyone.
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post #10746 of 11930 Old 09-03-2012, 03:04 PM
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I dumped two EEPROMs of two different TX-P42S10. Perhaps someone is interested in this. One of them is version 33.01, the other is 33.00. In the 33.01 the clock was reset by me. The 33.00 version is not modified.

panel_e2p-33.00.txt 25k .txt file
panel_e2p-33.01.txt 25k .txt file
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File Type: txt panel_e2p-33.00.txt (25.0 KB, 147 views)
File Type: txt panel_e2p-33.01.txt (25.0 KB, 120 views)
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post #10747 of 11930 Old 09-04-2012, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clktmr View Post

[HOW-TO] Resetting the panels age

Thank you so much, clktmr, for posting this how-to, and differentiating the pins on that 11-pin connector.

I haven't fully explored everything yet, but Panasonic does allow data setting transfers between A-boards, when an A-board is replaced during servicing. Probably so settings can remain the same and transparent to the owner.

This document explains the procedure using a SD card, starting at page 85. It says that it copies customer setting data, channel scanned data, adjustment data, and shipping data. I'm not sure what all that means, but if an A-board is replaced, I would think the panel usage hours would be important to transfer also.

I haven't had the chance yet to copy my data onto a SD card and examine the contents, to see if the hours are indeed copied. But if the hours are copied, it may be simple to change those hours before copying that data back onto the A-board.

Also, that pin 10 on IC9003 is underneath the chip on my set, and inaccessible without removing the board. However, according to the service manual, it ties into pin 7 of EEPROM IC9001, and called EEP_WR_CTL.

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post #10748 of 11930 Old 09-04-2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwil View Post

I would think the panel usage hours would be important to transfer also.
Agreed. I just tried this, but I couldn't find the clock in the data on the SD-Card. Also, I don't know what the svl_file contains. Perhaps it is encrypted or saved in another format.
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post #10749 of 11930 Old 09-05-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clktmr View Post

Agreed. I just tried this, but I couldn't find the clock in the data on the SD-Card. Also, I don't know what the svl_file contains. Perhaps it is encrypted or saved in another format.

Have you tried to save that file twice, with a few hours in between with the TV on, and compare the two files?

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post #10750 of 11930 Old 10-06-2012, 10:20 AM
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This is some awesome info...has anyone made any progress with the SD method? Much appreciated your efforts CLK!

ala Yoda...

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post #10751 of 11930 Old 10-13-2012, 10:05 PM
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wow I can't believe someone actually figured out how to fix this after all this time-- amazing work! I too would be super interested in the SD method-- the TV I wish to fix isn't mine, so I don't PARTICULARLY want to go messing around on the inside... but just letting you know theres more interest--- it wasn't super easy to find this on google! hopefully bumping this thread will keep some interest going...
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post #10752 of 11930 Old 10-17-2012, 06:35 PM
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I am interested as well.....I would like to hear more on this.

Main HT Room: Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV3, Sony BDP-S5100, Speakers: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers, Sierra Horizon and HTM-200SE, Dual Power Sound Audio XV15 Subwoofers
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post #10753 of 11930 Old 10-25-2012, 07:10 AM
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I would be very interested in this as well, if it is possible via the SD card. Thank you for looking into this.

I turn the sharpness on my TV all the way up, because that's how I like my picture... real sharp.
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post #10754 of 11930 Old 10-25-2012, 12:30 PM
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Yes I would be interested as well. Im not comfortable with tinkering in the back just yet.
58V10 still looks great, but woudl love for it to look better....smile.gif
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post #10755 of 11930 Old 10-25-2012, 01:50 PM
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I would be interested as well , but we do not know for sure if the hours are copied with all of the other A-board settings.
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post #10756 of 11930 Old 10-25-2012, 08:58 PM
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Dammit. Just when I got rid of my GT20 here comes the solution. I'm happy for everyone out there who can prolong their TVs performances.
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post #10757 of 11930 Old 10-26-2012, 08:22 AM
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I'd be interested in trying a simple SD Card type fix, just as long as it doesn't degrade the life span of the TV.

I thought it was the general consensus that the rising black levels issue was detrimental to the increased rated life span. Of course I understand few of us here would be keeping the same TV for upwards of 10+ years anyways.

TC-P46G10 build date May 2009
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post #10758 of 11930 Old 11-01-2012, 06:51 PM
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I, too, would be interested. I am curious however if it is absolutely REQUIRED that you solder-mod the board, or if the EEPROM signal can be grounded through some other connection mechanism. Do you have a copy of the schematic? I'm surprised that the EEPROM isn't software upgradable. I actually have a 50G10, but no schematic for it. I think someone gave me a schematic a while back for an S10, which I'm sure has very common circuitry. I also already went to the hassle a few years back of getting several connector samples, I think for the very one you mention, when there was active work being done on the I2C bus to try and solve the problem. I myself ran out of time to work on it any further, though I still have the connectors and S10 schematic.

keep us posted..

..dane
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post #10759 of 11930 Old 11-02-2012, 03:54 AM
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If you are interested in a manual for your G10, try here: http://elektrotanya.com/?q=keres

I'm still interested in this as well.
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post #10760 of 11930 Old 11-02-2012, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipit View Post

If you are interested in a manual for your G10, try here: http://elektrotanya.com/?q=keres
I'm still interested in this as well.

Sweeeeeet! Thanks so much!

..dane
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post #10761 of 11930 Old 11-02-2012, 12:06 PM
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Nice work!
But do you know what could be even better...? -> Finding a way to tweak the black levels (manipulate the pre-discharge control parameters in the EEPROM until you find the sweet spot of your own panel)! biggrin.gif

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #10762 of 11930 Old 11-13-2012, 04:41 AM
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Still no solution using SD card?
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post #10763 of 11930 Old 11-14-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
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Still no solution using SD card?

+1
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post #10764 of 11930 Old 11-14-2012, 05:03 PM
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Fixing this problem by manually programming the EPROM is a fantastic achievement. But few end users would be capable of fixing their black levels this way.

An SD card solution would reach SO many more people. But to me that seems like it would add an entire additional level of complexity.
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post #10765 of 11930 Old 11-20-2012, 09:28 AM
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Updating via SD card is fantasy.

It's going to be an expert level task. That's why Panasonic never admitted to this to begin with.

I'm kinda glad Panasonic has this "prices cant drop x% policy". I'm contemplating upgrading the 50V10 to a 60 incher & relagating the rising black tv to the basement. But I cant justify $1900 for a 60G50 when there are 60 inch models for $699-$999 this black friday.
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post #10766 of 11930 Old 05-31-2013, 05:36 PM
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I'm aware that this 3ad is dead from awhile but what i'm going to say could be useful to someone :

performing the panel clock reset on mine 50G10 (european model) through the I2C service connector and CLKTMR procedure i discovered that the EEPROM my TV set is not write protected !

What i observed is:

- the panel EEPROM I2C address is 0x50 and not 0xA0.
- the panel EEPROM I2C write enable line (the small PCB via showed in above CLKMTR photo) goes spontaneously low as soon as i put the service connector pin 10 (I2C_CONT) to GND and i turn on the TV (in this condition the panel is disabled)


Black level dropped from (a shameful) 0.12 cd/m2 to 0.03 cd/m2 (I1 Display PRO reading), image quality restored to original level.

The change is huge, it's a shame that Panasonic left its customers without a solution for its design mistake.

My thank to CLKTMR for the precious hint.

The TV set has around 8000 work hours.



PS : for additional informations, take a look to :

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-149-11672.html
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-149-8313.html
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post #10767 of 11930 Old 05-31-2013, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKONE View Post

I'm aware that this 3ad is dead from awhile but what i'm going to say could be useful to someone :

performing the panel clock reset on mine 50G10 (european model) through the I2C service connector and CLKTMR procedure i discovered that the EEPROM my TV set is not write protected !

What i observed is:

- the panel EEPROM I2C address is 0x50 and not 0xA0.
- the panel EEPROM I2C write enable line (the small PCB via showed in above CLKMTR photo) goes spontaneously low as soon as i put the service connector pin 10 (I2C_CONT) to GND and i turn on the TV (in this condition the panel is disabled)


Black level dropped from (a shameful) 0.12 cd/m2 to 0.03 cd/m2 (I1 Display PRO reading), image quality restored to original level.

The change is huge, it's a shame that Panasonic left its customers without a solution for its design mistake.

My thank to CLKTMR for the precious hint.

The TV set has around 8000 work hours.



PS : for additional informations, take a look to :

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-149-11672.html
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-149-8313.html


Wow, major improvement on black levels!

I would be interested to hear how long until or if the black levels rise again using this procedure.
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post #10768 of 11930 Old 06-01-2013, 12:48 AM
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It's great to have so me measurements finally. And some models can be reset without being opened, that are great news
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post #10769 of 11930 Old 06-01-2013, 03:30 AM
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Yes, the improvement is substantial, now i remember how good this TV set was good at first.

A reason more to be angry with Panasonic, the TV set that i used for years was well under its specifications.

I just made another important check :

sadly to say, SD card dump/recovery service feature does not affect panel clock EEPROM registers.

I made a SD dump just after panel clock reset and i applied it after some hours of TV usage, the panel clock was NOT restored.

Forget definitively the SD method for this purpose.

IF the first BL increase step is actually around 500 hours, in my case a "reset cure" would be necessary every 3 month.

There is people on http://www.hifi-forum.de/ that is modding the SC board (a trimmer plus fixed resistor in place of R607) for an additional BL step down, but at least in my case the risk not worth the plausible result.

High voltages are involved inside that boards (different P/N depending on TV model) and you have to deal with a small trimmer on live circuit.

If you are not a tech guy, stay far from that.

To summarize :

- with my TX-P50G10E (8000 hours) the I2C panel EEPROM (I2C addr : 0x50) clock reset works wonderfully, without the very difficult PCB via to GND connection

- black level dropped from 0.12 cd/m2 to 0.03 cd/m2

- SD card dump does not affect panel clock, so useless for this purpose
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post #10770 of 11930 Old 06-01-2013, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clktmr View Post

It's great to have so me measurements finally. And some models can be reset without being opened, that are great news

Interesting, is there a list of which models can be reset without opening the case?

I have a G25 Gen 13 panel that has diminished black levels but I am not experienced in working with electronics, so I would be very hesitant to open my display to reset the clock.
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