Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 36 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Plasma Flat Panel Displays > Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight?
mmoh00's Avatar mmoh00 10:07 AM 12-29-2009
Well, assuming what Dnice said is true, I would recommend everyone to return their new sets to the retailers if possible. You do NOT want a plasma tv that looks like a dirt cheap LCD like in some pictures here. LOL. On top of this, there's the big green push and the THX bug. Panasonic screwed up BIG TIME this year. Unless they fix the black level issue soon, I will probably get rid of mine on craigslist too. Now I can see why 54S1s were going for sub $1K last month.

chad473's Avatar chad473 10:13 AM 12-29-2009
would these voltage adjustments keep going through the life of the panel..essentially meaning the black level is just going to continue rising and rising..or does it only happen a few times? I'm willing to accept a slight rise that I may not even perceive under regular viewing, but if I can expect it to keep rising every few months and essentially become very noticeable in a year or two, I may look into a replacement.
D-Nice's Avatar D-Nice 10:16 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Well, assuming what Dnice said is true, I would recommend everyone to return their new sets to the retailers if possible. You do NOT want a plasma tv that looks like a dirt cheap LCD like in some pictures here. LOL. On top of this, there's the big green push and the THX bug. Panasonic screwed up BIG TIME this year. Unless they fix the black level issue soon, I will probably get rid of mine on craigslist too. Now I can see why 54S1s were going for sub $1K last month.

No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar PENDRAG0ON 10:21 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Well, assuming what Dnice said is true, I would recommend everyone to return their new sets to the retailers if possible. You do NOT want a plasma tv that looks like a dirt cheap LCD like in some pictures here. LOL. On top of this, there's the big green push and the THX bug. Panasonic screwed up BIG TIME this year. Unless they fix the black level issue soon, I will probably get rid of mine on craigslist too. Now I can see why 54S1s were going for sub $1K last month.

I've got a 54V10 on the way as a replacment and I will either get a 13g replacment set or a refund sometime this June, since I am only one person, they don't hear my complaints, the tech said it takes thousands of complaints before Panasonic considers it worth fixing, I say we give them those complaints.

List of flaws with the 12g Plasma sets that I have found

DSE like streaks in the AR coating on every unit (most never notice it)
Hyper Agressive ABL that makes brighter picture settings useless
Black levels rise rappidly around the time your return period is up
THX mode is dim and green (green push has a FW fix availible)
Standard mode has motion dither in dark scenes that is very obvious
Brighter picture modes produce more buzz than they should (no where near Kuro levels though)
The AR filter is pretty useless in daylight conditions, even a single energy saver bulb washes it out
All picture modes have this odd adjustment to shadow details randomly (happens differently for each picture mode)
cristian_ro's Avatar cristian_ro 10:26 AM 12-29-2009
D-nice definitely you know the whole story. I have two questions ... what board holds the internally clock of the PDP, since my a-board was replaced i thought that was the board with all the video processing. And how can i reset my internal clock without opening the panel
mmoh00's Avatar mmoh00 10:30 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

I have seen some pictures here and I wouldn't call them "good displays" with that kind of black level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.

With the next year models coming up shortly, I doubt they would suddenly change their mind and decide to come up with a FW fix. If I have just spent $2K on a TV this month, I certainly wouldn't assume that to happen. These (panny) people will listen to the sales number mainly. If people keep buying them and keep them, there's no black level problem as far as they are concerned. For owners without a return option, I agree it's a good idea to keep pressure on them with service calls.
pukemon's Avatar pukemon 10:39 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.

this is what i wanted to hear. i think this is probably the only thing that will make panasonic cough up a solution. complaints about black levels and threats to buy the competition along with demands for refunds should make their way to whoever needs to hear this. if panasonic market share makes a steep decline, then the complaints with or without a firmware fix should make them a little more meticulous about their little screwup and future tv's. right now i am not too worried, and will call should i have a problem. panasonic's customer service was a big part in my decision to buy a panasonic over a samsung and even if they don't issue a fix, i will politely demand a refund for my tv or a 13g. i urge everybody to do the same.
Rpresner's Avatar Rpresner 10:51 AM 12-29-2009
is this the real housewives of avs forums. I appreciate D Nice with his knowledge and information sharing, but come on.. I have a 58 v10 and to my eyes my black levels are the same as when I bought it. Maybe something did change but I can not tell at all. To me my set has gotten better since I first got it. All tv's have issues just deal with it.
D-Nice's Avatar D-Nice 10:52 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

is this the real housewives of avs forums. I appreciate D Nice with his knowledge and information sharing, but come on.. I have a 58 v10 and to my eyes my black levels are the same as when I bought it. Maybe something did change but I can not tell at all. To me my set has gotten better since I first got it. All tv's have issues just deal with it.

If you cannot see it, don't worry about it... and don't look for it.
pj325is's Avatar pj325is 10:53 AM 12-29-2009
The tech replaced the "SS Board" on my tv. I assume that's different than the "A Board" other people had replaced? Any idea what the SS board does?

I can't tell if it has made a difference yet since there's too much light during the day.
Rpresner's Avatar Rpresner 10:57 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

If you cannot see it, don't worry about it... and don't look for it.

Im not. I do thank you for the information you provided to these forums but some people on here are way over there heads. Besides the Kuro's, I doubt there is a overall better plasma then the v10 i got. Especially in regards to price and performance. Every TV has issues and thats how it always will be.
tunatime's Avatar tunatime 11:10 AM 12-29-2009
I just bought a 42s1 last week and I noticed that on sd the black bars are less black then on my samsung 40 b640 lcd. It looks like a shade of gray like thers a back light behind the scren and if I put a black side the corens and the side are lighter then the center. Will it get lighter then this still? Is there any way I can fix it? My set is and aug bulid
cristian_ro's Avatar cristian_ro 11:15 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tunatime View Post

I just bought a 42s1 last week and I noticed that on sd the black bars are less black then on my samsung 40 b640 lcd. It looks like a shade of gray like thers a back light behind the scren and if I put a black side the corens and the side are lighter then the center. Will it get lighter then this still? Is there any way I can fix it? My set is and aug bulid

SD is not a good source of measurement . Use HD only HD!!!!!!
tunatime's Avatar tunatime 11:31 AM 12-29-2009
The black bars on the side are a black gray shade and on a full black form my pc or a slide its looks like and uneven grayish glow not black at all darker in the midle lighter on the sides even if I put brightness to 0 it looks about the same.
Rpresner's Avatar Rpresner 11:37 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tunatime View Post

The black bars on the side are a black gray shade and on a full black form my pc or a slide its looks like and uneven grayish glow not black at all darker in the midle lighter on the sides even if I put brightness to 0 it looks about the same.

where is this TV located in your house.
tunatime's Avatar tunatime 11:48 AM 12-29-2009
In the den and at night whit all the lights out it lookcs just a litle better its a litle darker but lookcs more uneven
jlsavs's Avatar jlsavs 11:55 AM 12-29-2009
THAT is a very good question ... because if the firmware in question is NOT on this A-board thingy ... then who knows what owners of an a-board swap are seeing (or NOT seeing) when they noted a MLL fix by this means !

jls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

D-nice definitely you know the whole story. I have two questions ... what board holds the internally clock of the PDP, since my a-board was replaced i thought that was the board with all the video processing. And how can i reset my internal clock without opening the panel


Rpresner's Avatar Rpresner 11:59 AM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tunatime View Post

In the den and at night whit all the lights out it lookcs just a litle better its a litle darker but lookcs more uneven

\\

I mean standard def is not going to look inky black no matter what tv it is. Most tvs will be greyish on the side and top and bottom bars. I mean I have the v10 and the black bars and blacks in general are fine to me with HD and BD. They are not super inky but I dont really care if they are as long as the picture quality is great and the contrast and shadow detail is there. I have lights on the back of my tv reflecting on a dark accent wall so it makes my blacks seem darker then they are. Thats the way i fixed it. Make my eyes adjust
SpeedDemon's Avatar SpeedDemon 12:01 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tunatime View Post

I just bought a 42s1 last week and I noticed that on sd the black bars are less black then on my samsung 40 b640 lcd. It looks like a shade of gray like thers a back light behind the scren and if I put a black side the corens and the side are lighter then the center. Will it get lighter then this still? Is there any way I can fix it? My set is and aug bulid

This is completely off-topic
tunatime's Avatar tunatime 12:08 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post

This is completely off-topic

How is it off topic? I'm asking if I could have a set that's already has the black problem out the box
Chris100's Avatar Chris100 12:14 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.

I would love to call and tell them this. The first thing they gonna tell me is, 'we need a tech to come out and check your display'.
TommyV's Avatar TommyV 12:26 PM 12-29-2009
So is this problem of rising black levels applicable to ALL 12g models (including the X1 and professional models)?
Slickman's Avatar Slickman 12:29 PM 12-29-2009
Does the V10 suffer from this as well?
mmoh00's Avatar mmoh00 12:41 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

So is this problem of rising black levels applicable to ALL 12g models (including the X1 and professional models)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

Does the V10 suffer from this as well?

Apparently all 12th gen Pannys will be subject to this problem.

If I had known about this, I would have returned my S1 earlier without any hesitation. I can live with the buzz noise and somewhat inaccurate colors, etc. But I don't think I can live with a grey black that's worse than a cheap computer LCD. Many people consider the black level to be the single most important aspect of the picture quality. That's why I switched over from LCD. And now this.
Rpresner's Avatar Rpresner 12:49 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Apparently all 12th gen Pannys will be subject to this problem.

If I had known about this, I would have returned my S1 earlier without any hesitation. I can live with the buzz noise and somewhat inaccurate colors, etc. But I don't think I can live with a grey black that's worse than a cheap computer LCD. Many people consider the black level to be the single most important aspect of the picture quality. That's why I switched over from LCD. And now this.

well i got 400 hours on my 58 v10 and there is no noticeable difference in black levels. I actually have pictures taken of course when I got it, and as of now. I put on the same black bar BD movie from the original pictures and its identical from picture to picture. I do not know if you need 1000 hours or so before this happens but my v10 kicks azz as of now. I could not be any happier.
smeg36's Avatar smeg36 01:05 PM 12-29-2009
I sent an email to Panasonic a couple hours ago about my measured black level increase. Here's the reply:

Quote:


Thank you for your inquiry. *We regret to hear that you are having
difficulties with your product. *There is no firmware update for this
issue. *We weill forward your message to the appropriate personnel for
review. *Thank you for contacting Panasonic.

Thank You,
Panasonic Consumer Support


mmoh00's Avatar mmoh00 01:08 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

well i got 400 hours on my 58 v10 and there is no noticeable difference in black levels. I actually have pictures taken of course when I got it, and as of now. I put on the same black bar BD movie from the original pictures and its identical from picture to picture. I do not know if you need 1000 hours or so before this happens but my v10 kicks azz as of now. I could not be any happier.

Maybe you haven't hit the magic number of hours yet. Can you post the before and now pictures or better yet, meter measurements?
exbagboy's Avatar exbagboy 01:10 PM 12-29-2009
I did the same thing by putting a light behind my G10, much better blacks but still, just wish I knew they were selling the KRP-500m for 1500$ including a base at the same time I paid 1400$ for my 50G10.
MacHound's Avatar MacHound 01:14 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I've got a 54V10 on the way as a replacment and I will either get a 13g replacment set or a refund sometime this June, since I am only one person, they don't hear my complaints, the tech said it takes thousands of complaints before Panasonic considers it worth fixing, I say we give them those complaints.

List of flaws with the 12g Plasma sets that I have found

DSE like streaks in the AR coating on every unit (most never notice it)
Hyper Agressive ABL that makes brighter picture settings useless
Black levels rise rappidly around the time your return period is up
THX mode is dim and green (green push has a FW fix availible)
Standard mode has motion dither in dark scenes that is very obvious
Brighter picture modes produce more buzz than they should (no where near Kuro levels though)
The AR filter is pretty useless in daylight conditions, even a single energy saver bulb washes it out
All picture modes have this odd adjustment to shadow details randomly (happens differently for each picture mode)

I am a prospective Panasonic customer who feels very cold about this company's TVs now. I emailed my thoughts to them, including a link to this thread. Here's Panny's email support link for anyone else who wants to do likewise:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...t/Contact-Us.2

If FUTURE customers can't get their attention, who can? My wallet remains firmly closed to Panasonic until these problems are addressed.
Rpresner's Avatar Rpresner 02:02 PM 12-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Apparently all 12th gen Pannys will be subject to this problem.

If I had known about this, I would have returned my S1 earlier without any hesitation. I can live with the buzz noise and somewhat inaccurate colors, etc. But I don't think I can live with a grey black that's worse than a cheap computer LCD. Many people consider the black level to be the single most important aspect of the picture quality. That's why I switched over from LCD. And now this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exbagboy View Post

I did the same thing by putting a light behind my G10, much better blacks but still, just wish I knew they were selling the KRP-500m for 1500$ including a base at the same time I paid 1400$ for my 50G10.

I agree...i saw a pro 141 for a really good price.. but still it was more than the 58 v10. I personally do not notice a huge difference in those tvs.. i can see the blacks are better but its not like OMG WOW this is crazy better... i had a 50in Kuro before this and it had its issues.. buzzed like crazy
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