Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHound View Post

I am a prospective Panasonic customer who feels very cold about this company's TVs now. I emailed my thoughts to them, including a link to this thread. Here's Panny's email support link for anyone else who wants to do likewise:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...t/Contact-Us.2

If FUTURE customers can't get their attention, who can? My wallet remains firmly closed to Panasonic until these problems are addressed.


No matter if your wallet remains firm, the v10's are mostly on waiting lists anyways. The v10's are selling like hot cakes and there is a reason for that. remember

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post #1082 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Maybe you haven't hit the magic number of hours yet. Can you post the before and now pictures or better yet, meter measurements?

well i hope thats not the case. haha. i do not have the USB with me at work

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post #1083 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 02:02 PM
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After a little digging I found the following from Panasonic:

The voltage required to reset the panel sufficiently (reset is the cause of black level) increases as the panel is used due to material changes within the pixels. To compensate there are pre-programmed increases in reset drive voltage at specific hours used.

In other words, If the voltage required to reset is 150Volts and the panel is driving the reset step at 150Volts then the panel operates fine. But after many hours of use the voltage required to reset jumps to 160Volts but the panel is still only driving the reset at 150Volts then the reset is not reliable and the pixels will begin to misfire when called upon during the firing stage (sustain stage). If the panel automatically adjusts the reset drive voltage up to compensate the pixels will not misfire.

Ideally this should not have much affect on MLL unless the compensation is too aggressive or not needed at the time. I'll post the actual paragraph from Panasonic when I get home from work.

Cheers

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post #1084 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 02:04 PM
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I wonder if there's a watch battery on the motherboard, that controls the clock...

like there are on PC motherboards...

And if you took them out briefly, it would reset the tv to day-1.
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post #1085 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 02:17 PM
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Thanks, xrox. I've been waiting for your input. Looking forward to what else you can find.

Larry
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post #1086 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHound View Post

I am a prospective Panasonic customer who feels very cold about this company's TVs now. I emailed my thoughts to them, including a link to this thread. Here's Panny's email support link for anyone else who wants to do likewise:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...t/Contact-Us.2

If FUTURE customers can't get their attention, who can? My wallet remains firmly closed to Panasonic until these problems are addressed.

Too bad you listen to the purveyors of doom in this forum, you will be missing out on one great TV. I have a 65V10 and it has a beautiful and I do mean amazingly beautiful picture. Maybe I am fortunate to have a good panel, but there is a reason you can't get these panels, they are sold out in most places and there is a long wait to get one because demand out paced forecasts. Many of the posts in forums like this are about bitches people have, you have to take it all with a "grain of salt". That is not to say these forums are not useful, they do help solve operational issues for many here, me included. Out of all the problems that PENDRAG0ON lists the only one I see on my panel is the AR filter is minimal, but for me it is still better than my former 65 CRT-RP unit and really a non-issue, but again that is for me. I feel for those that have substandard panels and they deserve a fix from Panasonic, especially those with the THX issues. We paid extra to have a THX mode and it should be fixed on those panels that have problems. If you think there is a "perfect" panel out there you will be sorely disappointed in anything you buy, there is no such thing. If you want the perfect visual experience go outside in the daylight and enjoy. If you want a great entertainment experience get yourself a 65V10 and a nice surround system, it will blow your doors off.

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post #1087 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

No matter if your wallet remains firm, the v10's are mostly on waiting lists anyways. The v10's are selling like hot cakes and there is a reason for that. remember

I'm pleased to report my wallet opened this afternoon for a Kuro Signature Elite 101FD. (That's the Pro version of the 500M.)

Why waste time screwing around with Panasonic to save a few measly bucks? I'm not trying to start display wars here -- just stating my time is worth something. Monkeying around with motherboard batteries, eeproms, hacking firmware, etc., all sort of defeats the purpose of having a TV to enjoy watching.

I hope my email does Panny owners some good. Maybe if a few hundred others write in that will get management's attention. I'll be pulling for you -- if only as a Pioneer owner.
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post #1088 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 03:29 PM
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not all of us have wallets big enough like yours. so we're stuck debating over samsung's and panasonics. it's the fanboys that ruin the fun. it seems too many peeps get their panties in a wad when somebody mention something negative about their favorite brand, or worse, get jealous of pioneer and panasonic owners. pioneer's are not without their own issues, though. i still would've got one in a heartbeat if i was working at the moment. enjoy your purchase. hope it doesn't have any problems.
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post #1089 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD1225 View Post

Too bad you listen to the purveyors of doom in this forum, you will be missing out on one great TV. I have a 65V10 and it has a beautiful and I do mean amazingly beautiful picture.

Rick, I am pleased that your set performs exactly as expected. That's all any of us hope for. Perhaps my tone in my last post was too negative. No condescension was intended.

I am optimistic that Panny's 13th generation firmware may fix the remaining issues, and that they release updated firmware to help 11th & 12th generation owners too.
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post #1090 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

it seems too many peeps get their panties in a wad when somebody mention something negative about their favorite brand, or worse, get jealous of pioneer and panasonic owners. pioneer's are not without their own issues, though. i still would've got one in a heartbeat if i was working at the moment. enjoy your purchase. hope it doesn't have any problems.

Thanks. The 101FD wasn't cheap, but it was slightly less expensive (shipped) than our five year old 7th generation 42 inch Fujitsu plasma EDTV it replaces. Considering how the dollar has crumbled in that time, the 101FD represents an incredible value.

... and now back to the main topic.
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post #1091 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHound View Post

I'm pleased to report my wallet opened this afternoon for a Kuro Signature Elite 101FD. (That's the Pro version of the 500M.)

Why waste time screwing around with Panasonic to save a few measly bucks? I'm not trying to start display wars here -- just stating my time is worth something. Monkeying around with motherboard batteries, eeproms, hacking firmware, etc., all sort of defeats the purpose of having a TV to enjoy watching.

I hope my email does Panny owners some good. Maybe if a few hundred others write in that will get management's attention. I'll be pulling for you -- if only as a Pioneer owner.

I owned a pro 141 and loved the set. There is no way it justified what I paid for it compared to my panny 58 v10. I actually sold my 141 and it paid for my panny v10 and some other gear. best move I have ever made. There is not 2-3K difference between those tvs. If you can now find it for a great price, power to you. To me the buzzing on it was more annoying then the this doubling blacks issue that i hear on this forum. Its been 400 hours and this TV is stunning for the price. Best TV out there IMHO.. For me I usually buy a new TV every 2-3 years as the Tech gets better so Ill enjoy this TV for now..

PSN: Biggsmooth
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post #1092 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

The Samsung plasma's may have slightly better colors at the start, but who know what happens as they age.

At this point, sure we do know, actually more, since the Sammys have been out a bit more time. Now, as we move forward, we don't know what could happen with these TVs from either brand, but that goes for any TV.
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post #1093 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.

Is there still time for them to make changes to 13G?
Production should be very soon for some of their new TVs.
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post #1094 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

At this point, sure we do know, actually more, since the Sammys have been out a bit more time. Now, as we move forward, we don't know what could happen with these TVs from either brand, but that goes for any TV.

That's what I said.
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post #1095 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 06:16 PM
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I found a few patents on this subject. I found the info below in the following patent application: (#20090021452)

While it may not describe the exact issue you are seeing it sure sounds like it. There is tons of info in these paragraphs but I’ve highlighted (bold) the most important parts IMO. If you want any of this translated into plain English(LOL) just let me know

Quote:


Next, the relationship between the power-on accumulated time and initializing voltage Vr is described. FIG. 13 is a pattern diagram showing the relationship between the power-on accumulated time and discharge start voltage of panel 10 of exemplary embodiment 2 of the present invention. As the power-on accumulated time of panel 10 increases, the discharge start voltage gradually increases . The discharge characteristics vary over time, so that the following problems occur. When initializing voltage Vr is set with reference to the discharge start voltage of panel 10 having a short power-on accumulated time, extending the power-on accumulated time increases the discharge start voltage. At this time, initializing voltage Vr becomes relatively low with respect to the discharge start voltage, hence the initializing discharge becomes weak, and sufficient wall voltage cannot be generated or the priming runs short. Thus, the initializing discharge can be insufficient. While, when initializing voltage Vr is previously set to be high in expectation of the variation over time of the discharge characteristics, initializing discharge becomes stronger than necessary in panel 10 having a short power-on accumulated time, light emission that is not related to the image display becomes strong, the black luminance increases, and the contrast can degrade.

However, the panel of the present embodiment has accumulated time measuring circuit 83, measures the power-on accumulated time, and performs control so that initializing voltage Vr increases with extension in power-on accumulated time. An image with sharp contrast can be displayed without un-stabilizing the initializing discharge regardless of the power-on accumulated time from the initial stage of the manufacturing of plasma display device 1.

An example of the method of controlling initializing voltage Vr based on the power-on accumulated time is a method of continuously increasing initializing voltage Vr with extension in power-on accumulated time. In the present embodiment, a plurality of accumulated time thresholds are set, the power-on accumulated time supplied from accumulated time measuring circuit 83 is compared with the accumulated time thresholds, and initializing voltage Vr is increased whenever the power-on accumulated time exceeds the accumulated time thresholds. FIG. 14A and FIG. 14B show a control method of the initializing voltage and a transition of the contrast ratio in accordance with exemplary embodiment 2. FIG. 14A shows the relationship between the power-on accumulated time and initializing voltage Vr, and FIG. 14B shows the relationship between the power-on accumulated time and the contrast ratio. In exemplary embodiment 2, three accumulated time thresholds of 650 hours, 850 hours, and 1000 hours are set, and initializing voltage Vr is increased by 5 (V) when the power-on accumulated time exceeds 650 hours. The increase in initializing voltage is performed not only in normal-temperature driving mode but also in low-temperature driving mode and high-temperature driving mode, and regardless of the APL value. When the power-on accumulated time exceeds 850 hours, initializing voltage Vr is further increased by 5 (V). When the power-on accumulated time exceeds 1000 hours, initializing voltage Vr is further increased by 5 (V).

In the present embodiment, as the discharge start voltage is increased in response to extension in power-on accumulated time, initializing voltage Vr is increased. Therefore, image display with a contrast stabilized at a high level is allowed regardless of the power-on accumulated time.


It is considered that the panel is hardly affected by increase over time in discharge start voltage when initializing voltage Vr is high, so that increase rate of the initializing voltage may be decreased as initializing voltage Vr becomes high.


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post #1096 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 07:10 PM
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WOW!!!!!!!!!! ^^^^^

I think I know a bit more about this now, but in English would be nice

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post #1097 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:09 PM
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let's have it.
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post #1098 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:11 PM
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Panel needs more voltage as it ages
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post #1099 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:14 PM
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My 50S1 started doing this today, after only 140 hours. Blacks are now a medium gray shade. Really upsetting. Looks just like my old LCD.
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post #1100 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:15 PM
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xrox, thanks for the info.

So basically the firmware is supposed to raise the "initializing voltage" at certain stages of use to track the rise of the "discharge start voltage" over time. And according to D-Nice, they apparently have a FW bug in this tracking logic. If the initializing voltage is somehow raised prematurely, it would result in poor black levels. Makes sense. What's not clear to me is whether this bug is supposed to trigger for every unit in the field or may stay dormant for some lucky ones.
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post #1101 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:24 PM
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xrox,

Thanks. I just read the full patent application. Interesting.

I'd love to see figures 13 and 14 that are referenced. Any chance that you might have access to them?

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post #1102 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:41 PM
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Sounds like the voltage changes are constant, but the loss of black level side effect is more random depending on the "health" of the pixels.
So all units will suffer from this in varying degrees over time.
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post #1103 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:48 PM
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The patent also describes that if the initial black level is low enough than the voltage changes will have an effect on contrast. This maybe why only the recent models are becoming a problem

Note that this is only a patent and that only D-Nice knows the actual details with what is actually on the market.



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post #1104 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hikarate View Post

Sounds like the voltage changes are constant, but the loss of black level side effect is more random depending on the "health" of the pixels.
So all units will suffer from this in varying degrees over time.

I think you are talking about the small tracking error inherent in the implementation of the concept. The one I am more concerned about is the erupt and large voltage error caused by a blatant FW bug. I suspect this is what caused the overnight doubling of black levels reported here.
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post #1105 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

So basically the firmware is supposed to raise the "initializing voltage" at certain stages of use to track the rise of the "discharge start voltage" over time.

That is exactly right.

Quote:


And according to D-Nice, they apparently have a FW bug in this tracking logic
. If the initializing voltage is somehow raised prematurely, it would result in poor black levels. Makes sense. What's not clear to me is whether this bug is supposed to trigger for every unit in the field or may stay dormant for some lucky ones.

If this patent just describes the general phenomenon and system to compensate then a bug or faulty system has a good chance of exaggerating the contrast changes. We could speculate on many different possible bugs such as:

1 - Use of an old FW voltage system on newer low black (low initialization) panels

2 - Over aggressive voltage increases

3 - Premature voltage increases (as you stated)

Maybe combinations of all three

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post #1106 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 09:29 PM
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If the changes are just premature, then there's no point in worrying since it would happen eventually anyway.
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post #1107 of 11232 Old 12-29-2009, 11:06 PM
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Also, if the voltage increases stop at 1000 hours or so, like the chart shows, then the panel may 'catch up' to the increases eventually.

aka, "the black may get better over time" ...we can only hope...
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post #1108 of 11232 Old 12-30-2009, 03:06 AM
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I know how to reset the internal clock! It's codes in four hexadecimal letters in two lines of the EEPROM.

It didn't help the black level, since my S10 had it's first out of three voltagejumps already.

But If I understand the patent papers correctly, then another voltagejump would not happen, if I set my internal clock to about 3000 hours?
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post #1109 of 11232 Old 12-30-2009, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

Also, if the voltage increases stop at 1000 hours or so, like the chart shows, then the panel may 'catch up' to the increases eventually.

aka, "the black may get better over time" ...we can only hope...

Interesting.. I was thinking this same thing after reading this thread. Let's hope that's the case, because I am really hating my display right now!
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post #1110 of 11232 Old 12-30-2009, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

Also, if the voltage increases stop at 1000 hours or so, like the chart shows, then the panel may 'catch up' to the increases eventually.

aka, "the black may get better over time" ...we can only hope...

this could be a likely scenario. i think members here who have their black level increase should definitely update the scenario when their set reaches ~1000 hours. in the meantime, i think all member who own a 12g panel should inquire panasonic about it so we can get a firmware fix or a decent answer. if enough members hound panasonic, then it's more likely we'll get a resolution.
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