Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 38 - AVS Forum
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post #1111 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

this could be a likely scenario. i think members here who have their black level increase should definitely update the scenario when their set reaches ~1000 hours. in the meantime, i think all member who own a 12g panel should inquire panasonic about it so we can get a firmware fix or a decent answer. if enough members hound panasonic, then it's more likely we'll get a resolution.

There is no such thing as "black levels catching up". Once your black level rises, crossing your fingers and hoping it will drop after xxxx hours isn't going to happen.
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post #1112 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 06:59 AM
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So D-Nice is there a way to fix this problem? Firmware? Hardware? Or is it a sit back and enjoy the TV for what it is and say should have bought a Kuro Elite.
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post #1113 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vistekrebel View Post

So D-Nice is there a way to fix this problem? Firmware? Hardware? Or is it a sit back and enjoy the TV for what it is and say should have bought a Kuro Elite.

yep it sounds like there could be a firmware solution if Panasonic gets enough complaints generated ... here's d-nice's previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.

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post #1114 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 07:15 AM
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Panasonic Support Contact Information

Looks like you can contact by phone, mail, email.

Might even be worth finding out contact information for people in their executive staff and letting them know how this black level change is going to hurt Panasonics Plasma TV brand reputation if it's not fixed soon.
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post #1115 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 07:15 AM
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Well, we could create an online petition and present it to Panasonic (google "petition online" to create a petition)...what do you think?
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post #1116 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by numbelino View Post

Well, we could create an online petition and present it to Panasonic (http://www.**************.com/create...n.html)...what do you think?

Internet Petitions are useless, they never get anything accomplished.

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post #1117 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.

What we really need is someone at a major media outlet, one that Panasonic would care about, to make this public and scare Panasonic PR people into feeling that they have to respond to the outlet with clear plans to product firmware to fix the problem.
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post #1118 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

What we really need is someone at a major media outlet, one that Panasonic would care about, to make this public and scare Panasonic PR people into feeling that they have to respond to the outlet with clear plans to product firmware to fix the problem.

yes, I agree!
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post #1119 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 07:53 AM
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So, as someone who has Panasonic at the top of their list, the question is: Should I be concerned about this issue or should I look elsewhere for my next plasma? Does it affect "every" Panasonic panel or is it a crap shoot as to whether MY panel will be affected?
From reading the reviews, one main reason to purchase a Panasonic is the great black levels, but if that isn't going to remain constant over the life of the panel, doesnt that negate this reasoning?

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post #1120 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Internet Petitions are useless, they never get anything accomplished.

As someone who is a freelance writer in the computer industry (my "side job") and who thus talks to a lot of contacts high up in companies like Microsoft, Electronic Arts, Dell, etc. I can tell you that this is correct. The credibility of online petitions is zero with higher ups.

HOWEVER - if you got a LOT of people to contact Panasonic with the wording that D-Nice used wrt the MLL/Idle Black Level and the cause, and report that your TV has lost the contrast levels and black levels that were the reason you selected this TV, comment that you are also writing to as many places as you can (forums, online hometheater sites, magazines, friends, AMAZON RATINGS!!!! (this is a big one) etc.) and will only be satisfied with a firmware fix, and enough people flood Panasonic with this (enough = more than 10 people from this thread) - there's a decent chance of a positive response.

Panasonic has to feel that current sales and futures sales and their reputation is threatened before they will act.
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post #1121 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

As someone who is a freelance writer in the computer industry (my "side job") and who thus talks to a lot of contacts high up in companies like Microsoft, Electronic Arts, Dell, etc. I can tell you that this is correct. The credibility of online petitions is zero with higher ups.

HOWEVER - if you got a LOT of people to contact Panasonic with the wording that D-Nice used wrt the MLL/Idle Black Level and the cause, and report that your TV has lost the contrast levels and black levels that were the reason you selected this TV, comment that you are also writing to as many places as you can (forums, online hometheater sites, magazines, friends, AMAZON RATINGS!!!! (this is a big one) etc.) and will only be satisfied with a firmware fix, and enough people flood Panasonic with this (enough = more than 10 people from this thread) - there's a decent chance of a positive response.

Panasonic has to feel that current sales and futures sales and their reputation is threatened before they will act.


I think this is the best advice given here on this issue and hope for the best. Thanks to all the contributors on this thread that have shedded some light on this issue.
I think that no matter what the AVS members here (about 1% of Panny plasma owners out there) say about this, Panasonic will not give a care anyway. This is an issue that will go unnoticed by 99.9% of the public which means Panasonic will take ZERO action on it.
I remember when Sony CRT RPTV's had their infamous "flicker" problem with their CRT's what hell I went through to get the proper attention on this issue. This was far worse then this current Panasonic black level issue because the problem became more noticable to most people due to flickering pictures and color hue shifts. Sony did finally step up to the plate on this issue, but could never resolve it due to their inferior CRT design. In the end, it was Panasonic CRT's that Sony started using for their CRT's in their RPTV.
So we have to do our part and let Panasonic know what we now know, and hope for some type of fix. In the meantime, we are going to have to deal with this issue and maybe someone here will figure out how to either stop this from happening or even lessen the effects.




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post #1122 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:35 AM
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I do not know if this was answered but is this for every panny 11-12g plasma. Or does this only happen to some panels? I have about 400-500 hours on my v10 and so far have not noticed anything. thanks.

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post #1123 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

I know how to reset the internal clock! It's codes in four hexadecimal letters in two lines of the EEPROM.

It didn't help the black level, since my S10 had it's first out of three voltagejumps already.

But If I understand the patent papers correctly, then another voltagejump would not happen, if I set my internal clock to about 3000 hours?

Is there a way for a Joe Six-Pack to reset his (or her) own set?
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post #1124 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

I have about 400-500 hours on my v10 and so far have not noticed anything. thanks.

If that would be FW error - 100% panels would be involved. IMHO some hardware element is malfunctioning and needs to be identified to solve problem.

There should be my signature
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post #1125 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

That is exactly right.

If this patent just describes the general phenomenon and system to compensate then a bug or faulty system has a good chance of exaggerating the contrast changes. We could speculate on many different possible bugs such as:

1 - Use of an old FW voltage system on newer low black (low initialization) panels

2 - Over aggressive voltage increases

3 - Premature voltage increases (as you stated)

Maybe combinations of all three

Quote:
Originally Posted by pj325is View Post

If the changes are just premature, then there's no point in worrying since it would happen eventually anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

Also, if the voltage increases stop at 1000 hours or so, like the chart shows, then the panel may 'catch up' to the increases eventually.

aka, "the black may get better over time" ...we can only hope...


Well, as xrox mentioned above, it looks like it's more than just a "premature" rise of the initializing voltage. Doubling of black levels is not explained by the contrast chart which only changes slightly over time w or w/o the tracking adjustment. It's more likely that xrox's #2 case is in play. That is, FW is overly aggressive in raising the voltage.
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post #1126 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kotlec View Post

If that would be FW error - 100% panels would be involved. ...

100% panels would carry the FW in question. But we don't know if the FW bug hits all panels or not.
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post #1127 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Panasonic has to feel that current sales and futures sales and their reputation is threatened before they will act.

Sorry to poke my nose back into this Panny owner's thread, but there's another way to get their attention. Check out the bold words in my email to Panasonic yesterday:

Quote:


I am a prospective Panasonic plasma TV buyer who was ready to make a 54-58 inch V10 plasma TV purchase until I read about this serious design flaw affecting all 11th and 12th generation Viera TVs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...167339&page=36

The Idle Black Rise firmware bug is well known by Panasonic Support. There are apparently no plans to do anything about it. I would be surprised if Viera TV owners don't organize class action litigation.

Panasonic needs to know that customers are aware of this design flaw & we make purchase decisions accordingly.

Thank you

As expected I've had no response.

I'm so glad I went ahead with my Pioneer purchase yesterday.

Best luck with your efforts!
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post #1128 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kotlec View Post

If that would be FW error - 100% panels would be involved. IMHO some hardware element is malfunctioning and needs to be identified to solve problem.

I hope I just dont notice it. I have excellent vision and so far the set still impresses me. Watched inglorious basterds last night on BD and the blacks to me were excellent.

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post #1129 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I think a class action lawsuit (a la the Sony RPLCD/SXRD Optical Block problem) is the only thing that is going to see results at this point. These display lines are dead as far as Panasonic is concerned.
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post #1130 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I think a class action lawsuit (a la the Sony RPLCD/SXRD Optical Block problem) is the only thing that is going to see results at this point. These display lines are dead as far as Panasonic is concerned.

That or everyone with this problem demands a replacment or a refund. I've got a V10 on the way and if it has any of the problems that my G10 has, then I will be getting a full refund.

I don't think that there are enough of us to get a class action lawsuit going but I could be wrong.

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post #1131 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

HOWEVER - if you got a LOT of people to contact Panasonic with the wording that D-Nice used wrt the MLL/Idle Black Level and the cause, and report that your TV has lost the contrast levels and black levels that were the reason you selected this TV, comment that you are also writing to as many places as you can (forums, online hometheater sites, magazines, friends, AMAZON RATINGS!!!! (this is a big one) etc.) and will only be satisfied with a firmware fix, and enough people flood Panasonic with this (enough = more than 10 people from this thread) - there's a decent chance of a positive response.

Amazon ratings would be a great way to start getting their attention. Even ten or twenty reviews from Panasonic owners will really get people aware of the issue.

Online home theater sites would be good too, but I would go a little further and contact people who have already published reviews on these sets. Letting them know about this firmware issue and seeing if they can investigate and maybe publish something.

And obviously continuing to post complaints to Panasonic as that's the best way to get this taken care of:

Panasonic Support Contact Information
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post #1132 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 10:12 AM
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Just a reminder:

As we talk about the serious product defect and possible legal actions, watch out for poster(s) who are paid to work the forums in situations like this.
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post #1133 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kotlec View Post

If that would be FW error - 100% panels would be involved. IMHO some hardware element is malfunctioning and needs to be identified to solve problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

That or everyone with this problem demands a replacment or a refund. I've got a V10 on the way and if it has any of the problems that my G10 has, then I will be getting a full refund.

I don't think that there are enough of us to get a class action lawsuit going but I could be wrong.

I have the v10 now and I do not see this as a problem with my set(as of now i guess). Its a fantastic TV that keeps on selling like hot cakes. I have not had one issue since oct 1st when I received it. The blacks to me are perfect at this point. Not on an elite level but those tvs were 5-7K depending on size. But in reference to any other TV the blacks to me are better...I have had in my HT a sammy 860, elite 141fd, and now the 58 v10. for the price and performance, the v10 wins. the elite was better but not 3000K better.

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post #1134 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 10:30 AM
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I bought mine from Amazon so I can type up a review for the set.

If someone who is good at writing reviews on this kind of stuff could come up with a basic review template for everyone to go off of it would be a big help for everyone.

Here is a review I wrote of the set back when it was new (pre swap out), I'll probably modify it for my Amazon posting.

Quote:


This is my first impressions review of the Panasonic 54g10, this set marks TV #5 since February on my quest to find a TV that I am happy with, is my quest over, or do I still have a ways to go, to find out, read on.

(Flat Panel TV history for reference)
4254 Samsung Plasma, summer 2007, returned
42px75 Panasonic Plasma, Fall 2007, still have
5020 Pioneer Kuro Plasma, February 2009, returned
52a630 Samsung LCD, March 2009/April 2009, returned X2
52a750 Samsung LCD, May 2009, returned
54g10 Panasonic Plasma, July 2009, ?? ?? ??

Opening the box.
The first thing that jumped out at me when the top of the box was removed was that the screen coating was much darker than on my 42px75. This darker coating led to very little reflections and a very nice looking screen. There was no visible damage either, looking good so far.

First impressions
Once the set was on and the initial setup was through I started up my trust PS3 and threw up my screen uniformity test image (dark grey break-in slide), and nothing was visible, this test showed uniformity issues with all prior sets that I have had this year. Next up was a 1:1 dot mode test image, which has various colors to represent various amounts of overscan, and for some reason the red outer edge flickered in color for a few seconds before the set felt that the color was right.... very odd. Next up was a grey 1:1 test image, and again I got a similar color flicker on the right side darker grey section.... what is going on here? Also during this testing I noticed 1 bright red pixel about 7 inches to the upper right of the center of the screen, noticeable up to 8 feet away in normal content.
I decided to keep the set since Amazon's turn around time on refusal of deliveries is over two weeks for the return alone, not to mention getting a replacement.

Now on to the meat of the review.

First thing that I tested was input lag, something that always bugs me when there is too much of it. So I fired up Guitar Hero 3 and started Rock you like a Hurricane on hard, and I failed badly, I checked the lag offset and it was 61ms, which was what I had set it to to play well on the Samsung LCDs that I had sent back, so I adjusted it to a 16ms offset (because I like to strum before the note actually hits) and I played perfectly considering how out of practice I was (93% instead of my usual 98% on that song) I have since been playing GH:WT and have no issues with the lag at all. (didn't bother to set the lag offset on this game)

Next up I ran Call of Duty 4's level "Charlie Don't Surf" which I use as both a Screen Uniformity test and as a Green Phosphor Trails test. First thing that I noticed (or didn't notice in this case) was the almost complete lack of green phosphor trails on this set, it was a big surprise at how much they had improved them in comparison to my 42px75. Another thing I noticed was that I had some very mild vertical banding on my set that covered the screen. It is exactly like what Cnet saw in their review of the 50x1, I haven't found any reference to this on the G series so I might try for a swap out if they bug me enough.

Next I loaded the level "All Ghillied Up" which is probably my favorite level in the game. As I proceeded through the level I was just loving how smooth it looked and then I came to a building and had to stop and just look, it had been forever since I had seen great motion resolution on a TV, I had almost forgotten how important it was. Having LCDs for the last few months I hadn't realized how I had gotten used to poor motion, to the point that I just accepted it, Call of Duty 4 was a slap in the face wake up call reminding me that no LCD is acceptable when it comes to moving picture performance. (more on LCD vs Plasma motion later when I compare blu-ray)

Next up was the black level testing, and what better test than The Dark Knight, I chose the nighttime IMAX escort scene about half way through the film. I watched this scene in the day and it wasn't any better or worse than the Kuro in similar lighting conditions, somewhat washed out. However in a dark room the set absolutely shocked me, I haven't seen a set this dark since I returned the Kuro, at first I honestly thought that they were at Kuro levels, then my eyes adjusted and I realized that while they weren't Kuro levels, they were actually really close, close enough that only someone who had seen a Kuro would be able to tell. 100% uniform blacks that are also really dark is a very nice thing. Another thing that I noticed during this testing was the complete lack of Panasonic's Real Black Drive, which causes some nasty floating blacks on my 42px75. It is really nice to no longer have that eye sore of a feature to deal with. (this is also a major complaint against Plasma sets by a few of the more vocal LCD fans, so it isn't a valid complaint anymore.

About this point I was wondering why I hadn't seen a hint of IR during this testing, so I did a quick test with a movie to leave some black bar IR, after watching about an hour of TDK I switched to a blank input and could make out some faint IR but nothing major at all. This set is far better than my 2 year old 42px75 is, even though it is fresh out of the box, a massive improvement on Panasonic's part.

I also noticed that there was far less Judder with blu-ray movies on the Plasma than the 120hz LCDs, it is almost like they added more judder to the LCDs to get you to use the Motion Enhancers that they have added to the LCDs, no need for any of that crap on these Panasonic Plasma sets.

Next up was a quick check of white levels, during normal content they are very bright, but when most of the screen is white they do dim, but never to the levels that my Kuro would dim to. Now do take into consideration that I run my set in THX mode, so your mileage may vary.

I also checked the buzz levels, which I could only get to audible levels on a test pattern in a completely silent room, so I don't consider the buzz with this set to be an issue at all, it is far better than the Pioneer Kuro that I returned, which sounded like a hornet's nest.

Another thing that I missed about Plasma was the depth that the colors had, even when there was extreme washout from sunlight they still had more punch to them than my old 52a750 LCD did at it's best.

Probably the most shocking thing about this Plasma was something that I didn't notice, the heat output, after 6 hours of the set being on, it was still fairly cool, much cooler than the any of the LCDs that I have had. This was a very nice surprise considering how much heat the Kuro put out. The LCDs also put out a large amount of heat, something this plasma just doesn't do. The science may say that this isn't possible, but it is a fact, this Plasma runs much cooler than an LCD that uses much less power.

About the only things that I can say in the LCDs favor was that their 10bit panel did it's job in eliminating color banding and the lack of dither was also nice as well. The Panasonic does have a good bit of Dithering to it, more so than my 42px75 does, which was a bit of a disappointment.

Last but not least was the viewing angles, it is so nice to once again have perfect viewing angles, something that no set, Kuro included can match.

Overall I would say that this Panasonic is a real winner, and I will be keeping it, but I do want to look into the few issues that I do have to see if I could get a set without them.

Not bad for the low price of $**** along with a free blu-ray player as well.

I really have to update some of the sections because further testing and different picture modes have changed my opinions of some of the sections (mainly dither, it is nowhere near as noisy as my 75 was, my memory was playing a trick on me) I will also heavily update the black level section about the increase that has happened on two different units so far.

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post #1135 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 11:25 AM
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Reportedly Panasonic has stated that a firmware will be released in the US within the next couple of weeks for customers with a hosed THX mode.
If that happens, I cannot see why they would not do the same for the black level problem at some point.
It is time to make some noise. The more noise, the quicker the chance of a firmware fix I would think.




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post #1136 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Reportedly Panasonic has stated that a firmware will be released in the US within the next couple of weeks for customers with a hosed THX mode.
If that happens, I cannot see why they would not do the same for the black level problem at some point.
It is time to make some noise. The more noise, the quicker the chance of a firmware fix I would think.

That THX firmware has been availible for weeks according to the tech I have been dealing with.

I never use THX so I haven't looked for it on the Panasonic website, but it is up for those using the Viera Link online thing.

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post #1137 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

That THX firmware has been availible for weeks according to the tech I have been dealing with.

I never use THX so I haven't looked for it on the Panasonic website, but it is up for those using the Viera Link online thing.

Pendragon... he means a newer fw than 1.28...
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post #1138 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 11:39 AM
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No one needs to return their displays. They are still good displays... they just have some issues.

What really needs to happen is for 12G Panasonic owners to contact Panasonic and demand they correct their unecessary idle black rise that is tied to their firmware coded panel "On" time pre-defined drive voltage adjustments. They currently have zero plans to correct this in their 12G consumer displays. Enough complaints may force them to actually do something about it.

Having caught up with this thread after a week of christmas vacation, I would say this is all anyone ever really needed to know - what the problem is and how to properly phrase a complaint about it to Panasonic

Rock on D-Nice.
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post #1139 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 12:08 PM
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I just sent another email to panasonic using d-nice's fancy words. Hopefully they don't try to send a tech out to replace another random, unrelated component..
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post #1140 of 11409 Old 12-30-2009, 12:15 PM
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Pendragon... he means a newer fw than 1.28...

I didn't know that they were working on another thx fix, like I said, I haven't been keeping up with the THX problems.

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