Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 380 - AVS Forum
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post #11371 of 11400 Old Yesterday, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post
... Have not had a chance to do a full field test yet, but based on the reviews so far I am excited to...
I just finished watching the darkest film I have access to (Godzilla), and the black levels are back to what convinced me to go with this panel in the first place! The picture was excellent (yes, even after my "poor-man's video calibration"). I cannot thank you enough Dane!

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Originally Posted by audiodane View Post
... Your rear backlight is a well-known way to improve black levels of *any* TV.. It produces slightly more light into your eye which naturally compensates to think the content on the screen itself is darker.. This was *the* accepted workaround before mironto's DIY guide (and the PMCv1) ..

I am glad you are still able to tell a different in the black level even with the back-light in place!
I also use a back light (6500k), and found that it still enhances the (perceived) black level, reset or not...!
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post #11372 of 11400 Old Yesterday, 10:45 PM
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Has anyone tried Dane's device on a VT25?
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post #11373 of 11400 Old Yesterday, 11:24 PM
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Just pulled the trigger for my 58v10...Thank you for all of your hard work on this. I will post my findings after the install.

Side note: What are you guys using for video calibration after your installs? I've been out of the videophile game for a while to satisfy my audiophile needs. =)

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #11374 of 11400 Old Today, 12:04 AM
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Man, now that I've had a day to test a few different content sources, it really is apparent how amazing this fix is. I feel like I have a brand new TV! Audiodane and mironto, your work is truly appreciated. As far as I'm concerned, you two are avsforum legends Here's to many more years of life for our plasmas!
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post #11375 of 11400 Old Today, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post
Side note: What are you guys using for video calibration after your installs? I've been out of the videophile game for a while to satisfy my audiophile needs. =)

I still like to use AVS HD. I also have the BD of Disney WOW which is also very good.




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post #11376 of 11400 Old Today, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post
What are you guys using for video calibration ...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...FZSDaQodKysAjg

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post #11377 of 11400 Old Today, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane
(In fact, a little secret.. don't tell anyone else on AVSForum.. You can flip it to undo, turn it on, and undo all your black level correction, then flip it back to go, turn it on, and re-set all your black levels again.. You can do this (go, undo, go, undo, go, undo, ..) as many times as you want. What an annoying prospect, but if you really want to A/B the results, you can.. That's outside the scope of the user's manual though, as only a few customers would actually want to go to that level of hassle.. But remember, this is just between you and me... )

..dane
THIS is why I waited for the gizmo and was going to ask about it.
I have a VT25 and black is at .0047
new I think was .0027

Plasmas age and start getting bad at coming out of black.
It becomes hard to see differences in 10% black and 20%.


I would hate to reset and have crushed blacks.

I feel like a buzz kill.

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post #11378 of 11400 Old Today, 11:01 AM
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Another successful (and easy) install in at TC50V10. Everything looks better defined and punchier; although not that punchy that it looks like an LED produced image. The 3-D-ish, photographic quality of the screen images remains, although somewhat enhanced. As I have said before and as many other have said: Dane, you are the man! Thanks loads for helping me to bring back the excellent viewing qualities of my Panasonic plasma.

BTW, for all you electronic/engineering folks, I wonder what Panasonic will have to say (if anything) about this handy-dandy solution to a problem that they turned their backs on. I'm quite sure that Panasonic could have easily developed this or a similar fix, but for some strange reason(s) they decided to bury their heads up their a**es.
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post #11379 of 11400 Old Today, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
Plasmas age and start getting bad at coming out of black.
It becomes hard to see differences in 10% black and 20%.

I would hate to reset and have crushed blacks.

I feel like a buzz kill.
Not at all CalWldLif-- I would *LOVE* a professional review of the issue of black levels versus dynamic range (if I'm understanding things correctly).. I have been under the impression that the black levels were crushed DUE TO the black level rise and that they are restored with the PMCv1. If you have equipment that can measure with a significant amount of certainty (or even if the results are "too close to call"), that would be a really good piece of information for people when considering whether or not to buy a PMCv1.

The more information available, the better a decision can be made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
Another successful (and easy) install in at TC50V10. Everything looks better defined and punchier; although not that punchy that it looks like an LED produced image. The 3-D-ish, photographic quality of the screen images remains, although somewhat enhanced. As I have said before and as many other have said: Dane, you are the man! Thanks loads for helping me to bring back the excellent viewing qualities of my Panasonic plasma.
Glad you are satisfied, flycaster. With as many (good) questions as you asked, if you are satisfied, I take that as a significant compliment. Thank you!

..dane
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post #11380 of 11400 Old Today, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post
Not at all CalWldLif-- I would *LOVE* a professional review of the issue of black levels versus dynamic range (if I'm understanding things correctly).. I have been under the impression that the black levels were crushed DUE TO the black level rise and that they are restored with the PMCv1. If you have equipment that can measure with a significant amount of certainty (or even if the results are "too close to call"), that would be a really good piece of information for people when considering whether or not to buy a PMCv1.

The more information available, the better a decision can be made.



Glad you are satisfied, flycaster. With as many (good) questions as you asked, if you are satisfied, I take that as a significant compliment. Thank you!

..dane
yes I have meters and software.
basically it is GAMMA. this is the TVs transition from 0 black to 100 white.
each level should be the same amount of increase as the previous level.(just a summary, math is actually different)
what happens to older plasma and CRT is that it stays blacker than it should when input is just above 0.So the blacks get crushed.
A higher black to start just lowers over all contrast ratio.

My VT25 has 13,000 hours and it really wants to stay black when it should
come out quicker.
this results in a high gamma at low brightness scenes.
result, crushed blacks.

I was able to get it to behave just barely.

My fear is when I use the gizmo, it will increase the difficulty of coming out of black.

I ordered one of the PCMv1a and I will need the instructions on restoring
the original values.

I am curious if at 150 hours after rest, and I don't reset it, what influence it will have. whether an aged screen will benefit from the voltage increase without
a mll rise.

just some thoughts I have had about whether or not to reset.
I will say, thank you for your device. And many owners with seriously
bright blacks will be very happy.

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post #11381 of 11400 Old Today, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
My fear is when I use the gizmo, it will increase the difficulty of coming out of black.
Fear not the blacks were already being crushed severely due to the MLL increase. IMHO, even if this does result in what you're describing, I'd be willing to bet that the blacks would be crushed far less than they were before the fix. Just my two cents!
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post #11382 of 11400 Old Today, 03:30 PM
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Fear not the blacks were already being crushed severely due to the MLL increase. IMHO, even if this does result in what you're describing, I'd be willing to bet that the blacks would be crushed far less than they were before the fix. Just my two cents!
how does brighter black crush?

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post #11383 of 11400 Old Today, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
how does brighter black crush?
Think of it like this:

Before: http://i.imgur.com/W0Ao2qn.jpg
After: http://i.imgur.com/BmJhOMg.jpg

The MLL rise didn't increase the brightness for all levels. Instead, it just created a floor that didn't allow the pixels to show below a certain level of black. In other words, the "whites" didn't actually get brighter or anything like that. I can see an incredibly significant increase in shadow detail after applying this fix.
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post #11384 of 11400 Old Today, 04:19 PM
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yes black level will give contrast, contrast gives depth and sharpness.

black crush

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post #11385 of 11400 Old Today, 04:35 PM
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But that isn't what is happening.

Your comparison photos are just showing overblown contrast. The black level in the top screenshot isn't actually any darker than the bottom screenshot.
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post #11386 of 11400 Old Today, 04:37 PM
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but that isn't what is happening.

Your comparison photos are just showing overblown contrast.
ok
...

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post #11387 of 11400 Old Today, 04:45 PM
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I'm really not trying to argue just for argument's sake, man. There are many posts earlier in this thread that back up what I'm saying. Bottom line, PMCv1 works. And if it turns out you don't like it, you can always flip those switches on the unit and it'll bring everything back to the risen MLL.
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post #11388 of 11400 Old Today, 05:03 PM
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I'm really not trying to argue just for argument's sake, man. There are many posts earlier in this thread that back up what I'm saying. Bottom line, PMCv1 works. And if it turns out you don't like it, you can always flip those switches on the unit and it'll bring everything back to the risen MLL.
you say that is not what is happening.
correct. taking a black of say .015 and then after PCMv1 adjust goes to .005
gives better perceived contrast and sense of sharpness and pop.

the picture I posted shows a condition called black crush.
black features blend together and lose detail.
the bricks and guys pants.
this is controlled by "brightness setting."

regardless, plasmas age and the ability to have a proper brightness setting is reduced.
the absolute black mll setting will show lack of detail like the pic I posted.
cure is to raise brightness and then lose that low mll.

so to get to see all the elements in a dark scene you have to raise the brightness
control and thus lose that black mll.If you are lucky.
Usually the amount of increase is so much that it just ruins the pic.

LIKE I posted, my TV barely allows the low brightness setting to have good mll
and not lose that pattern in the bricks.

This is common to CRTs and plasmas as they age.

So, black crush is a brightness setting to low to show dark detail.
Lowering the mll gives better contrast thus perceived pop.
they are different elements of a pic.

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post #11389 of 11400 Old Today, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
so to get to see all the elements in a dark scene you have to raise the brightness
control and thus lose that black mll.If you are lucky.
Correct. This is only necessary due to the risen MLL. It wasn't necessary when your TV was new.

*sigh*

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Your argument is essentially, "the TV's original performance is inferior to the performance after the erroneous MLL rise".

I guess you're happy with the current performance of your display. In that case, keep on keepin' on

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post #11390 of 11400 Old Today, 05:37 PM
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*sigh*

I guess just we'll have to agree to disagree. Your argument is essentially, "the TV's original performance is inferior to the performance after the erroneous MLL rise".

I guess you're happy with the current performance of your display. In that case, keep on keepin' on
sigh.
I knew it was a waste of typing.
facts are facts and your disagreeing with them changes nothing.
I should have known after you incorrectly quoted and posted my first post that
the knowledge is beyond your experience.

So in your eyes the out of the box voltages never needed increasing.

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post #11391 of 11400 Old Today, 05:47 PM
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I just don't want others to be misinformed by your posts.

For the record, people: PMCv1 will make your TV behave as it originally did when you bought it -- the correct way.
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post #11392 of 11400 Old Today, 05:55 PM
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I just don't want others to be misinformed by your posts.

For the record, people: PMCv1 will make your TV behave as it originally did when you bought it -- the correct way.
typical Opinions from some one who can't understand that plasmas have their voltages increased for a reason.
you did not answer the question, do you think plasmas need voltage increases?

If I suffered from the crazy high black levels reported, I would use the device.
I would gladly trade some black crush for better contrast.
but I don't have horrible levels .005 is very good.

"make it behave as OTB".
so again, do plasmas need their voltages increased?

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post #11393 of 11400 Old Today, 06:20 PM
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My s1 looks so much better now its amazing to see blacks and not 50 shades of grey and to not really see the bars on movies now and I forgot how bad it was before.

To the guy saying it will look worst lol

Btw the ir is better now before if I left a dvd up in 10 mim I would get ir not anymore
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My s1 looks so much better now its amazing to see blacks and not 50 shades of grey and to not really see the bars on movies now and I forgot how bad it was before.

To the guy saying it will look worst lol

Btw the ir is better now before if I left a dvd up in 10 mim I would get ir not anymore
I missed where someone said that.


point it out.

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post #11395 of 11400 Old Today, 06:53 PM
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but I don't have horrible levels .005 is very good.
Either you got extremely lucky and have a "defective" set, that just so happens to only have the "defect" of a super deep black level, or you don't know what you're talking about. Or you're trolling. I'm really not sure at this point.
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post #11396 of 11400 Old Today, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by djbrettb View Post
Either you got extremely lucky and have a "defective" set, that just so happens to only have the "defect" of a super deep black level, or you don't know what you're talking about. Or you're trolling. I'm really not sure at this point.
so now I lie too?
VT25 late manu, after the fix.

as far as luck, yup. waited until a fix was put in the firmware.
"less aggressive volt increase" late manu TVs

don't feel bad, a lot of people like crushed blacks. you know that pic you thought was "contrast" controlled.

Seeing as how I have been calibrating for 3 years and use the latest meters and software, what I say is from experience.
a meter is not dependent on eyeballs.

hey I am happy you are stoked. really.
Me, I value gamma, you know what I said earlier, as well as mll.



so I see you still have not answered the question.
does plasma need volt increases?

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post #11397 of 11400 Old Today, 07:28 PM
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Could someone just do a full 21-point Luminance reading before and after the reset and post the numbers?

If someone wants to mail their PMCv1 (2008) to Canada I will do it. I will even pay for it.

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post #11398 of 11400 Old Today, 07:51 PM
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so I see you still have not answered the question.
does plasma need volt increases?
If I may chime in here.. I do not believe we need to reduce ourselves to name-calling..

Whether or not plasma's actually *need* voltage increase in indeed I think a hotly debated topic, and I suspect it varies year to year, model to model as technology changes.. Certainly the panasonic patents seem to indicate that plasma cells need higher voltages over time, however one PMCv1 customer is reporting that they are seeing no pixel anamalies after the PMCv1's reset even though their panel has over 20k hours logged. This example shows that there are unexplained discrepancies for sure (since the first voltage noticeable voltage adjustment happens around only 200 hours).

I, for one, admit that I understand little of the plasma firing voltage technology requirements -- not because I can't understand it, but because I haven't taken the proper time to try. Anecdotal evidence was enough for me to venture out to produce the PMCv1. I stand by my earlier comment-- that I would be very interested in accurate measurement details and controlled-exposure/whitebalance/aperture photographs to explain said measurements (test patterns, sample images, etc) so that they may be understood by more people.

The PMCv1 offers an easy-to-use solution to clear-and-restore the hours counter (and therefore voltage adjustment settings) back and forth as many times as necessary to make such measurements. As with most tests however, data can always be taken to support either side of the argument. Determining which sets of test data accurately answer the question is almost more important than the test results themselves. (Human perception is at least (if not more) important than the measurement reality-- just look at audio reproduction and how some of the "best sounding" systems are not at all along a flat frequency response.. Misunderstanding the data can cause even more problems than misunderstanding the question.)

At the end of the day, I think there are people who appreciate what clktmr, mironto, and the PMCv1 are able to offer..

cheers,
..dane
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post #11399 of 11400 Old Today, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
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Could someone just do a full 21-point Luminance reading before and after the reset and post the numbers?
Yes, I think such data would be a good addition to the conversation..

..dane
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