Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 389 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11641 of 11670 Old 05-26-2015, 09:27 AM
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Any feedback from people who have reset units with a lot of hours on them and then put many more hours on? Since these rising blacks were by design, I imagine there has to be some sort of impact on the set by reverting to the original levels.

I ask because I just picked up a used P50G10 built in April 2009. Entering the service menu shows a whopping 7,211 hours of usage and 4120 on/off cycles.

As you'd expect, the blacks are shot accordingly. As much as I'd love to revert the set to new, I'm a little hesitant to do so given the age and heavy usage of the panel.

Perhaps I'd be better off going the homebrew route and editing the EEPROM to something like 500 hours of usage (so after the first black rise step) rather than going all the way to 0?
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post #11642 of 11670 Old 05-26-2015, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWells55 View Post
Any feedback from people who have reset units with a lot of hours on them and then put many more hours on? Since these rising blacks were by design, I imagine there has to be some sort of impact on the set by reverting to the original levels.

I ask because I just picked up a used P50G10 built in April 2009. Entering the service menu shows a whopping 7,211 hours of usage and 4120 on/off cycles.

As you'd expect, the blacks are shot accordingly. As much as I'd love to revert the set to new, I'm a little hesitant to do so given the age and heavy usage of the panel.

Perhaps I'd be better off going the homebrew route and editing the EEPROM to something like 500 hours of usage (so after the first black rise step) rather than going all the way to 0?
The PMCv2 has an "undo" switch that, well, undoes the clear, in case you are nervous about anything. That said, there are folks with well over 10k out there using the PCMv1/v2 just fine.. If you want to force it to 500hrs though, yes, you'll need to use mironto's DIY method..

cheers,
..dane
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post #11643 of 11670 Old 05-26-2015, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWells55 View Post
I ask because I just picked up a used P50G10 built in April 2009. Entering the service menu shows a whopping 7,211 hours of usage and 4120 on/off cycles.

Perhaps I'd be better off going the homebrew route and editing the EEPROM to something like 500 hours of usage (so after the first black rise step) rather than going all the way to 0?
7210 hours isn't that much. I wouldn't hesitate to reset the tv back to 0. I'm getting ready to reset my V10. Tried to find out the number of hours today via the service menu but the instructions for checking the hours in the service menu didn't work on my V10. Even if mine is over 10,000 I'll reset it back to 0.
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post #11644 of 11670 Old 05-26-2015, 08:20 PM
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Just reset my 54" V10 and all I can say, the result were dramatic. My set had over 10,300 hours on it so the rise was significant. I've had my PMCv2 since October, 2014 but never got around to installing it. Wish I hadn't waited. Even my wife could not believe how much better the picture was improved by the PMCv2. Wish I could upload the before and after photos, but can't get it to work tonight. I try later when not so tired.

Thanks to Dane and everyone who contributed to the thread and the fix!
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post #11645 of 11670 Old 05-27-2015, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWells55 View Post
Any feedback from people who have reset units with a lot of hours on them and then put many more hours on? Since these rising blacks were by design, I imagine there has to be some sort of impact on the set by reverting to the original levels.

I ask because I just picked up a used P50G10 built in April 2009. Entering the service menu shows a whopping 7,211 hours of usage and 4120 on/off cycles.

As you'd expect, the blacks are shot accordingly. As much as I'd love to revert the set to new, I'm a little hesitant to do so given the age and heavy usage of the panel.

Perhaps I'd be better off going the homebrew route and editing the EEPROM to something like 500 hours of usage (so after the first black rise step) rather than going all the way to 0?
I am not sure how many actual hours are on my V10, but it has reset at least 5 or 6 times since adding the PMC1, and it still looks great and I haven't seen anything weird happen.
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post #11646 of 11670 Old 05-27-2015, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post
The PMCv2 has an "undo" switch that, well, undoes the clear, in case you are nervous about anything. That said, there are folks with well over 10k out there using the PCMv1/v2 just fine.. If you want to force it to 500hrs though, yes, you'll need to use mironto's DIY method..

cheers,
..dane
10,000 hours, huh? Well damn, so much for my worries. Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

I wonder what in the world Panasonic was thinking/afraid of when they decided to implement the rising black levels?

Now it's a matter of deciding how to go about this. On one hand, the PCM being "set it and forget it" is extremely convenient. On the other hand, DIY gives me an excuse to do some EEPROM programming which is always fun...
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post #11647 of 11670 Old 06-02-2015, 11:55 AM
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This past Sunday I had a touch-up calibration done on both my Panasonic V-50 and V-10. The calibrator asked what had I done to the V-10 as my black levels were as good as it was the first time he calibrated my set at the 200 hrs. mark. I explained it to him that I purchased and installed a PMCv1. I introduced him to this site and he was going to pass it on to some of his customers as he thought that the improvement was simply amazing.
Great work Dane
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post #11648 of 11670 Old 06-02-2015, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fcroadking View Post
This past Sunday I had a touch-up calibration done on both my Panasonic V-50 and V-10. The calibrator asked what had I done to the V-10 as my black levels were as good as it was the first time he calibrated my set at the 200 hrs. mark. I explained it to him that I purchased and installed a PMCv1. I introduced him to this site and he was going to pass it on to some of his customers as he thought that the improvement was simply amazing. Great work Dane
Orders for Dane may pickup.
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post #11649 of 11670 Old 06-05-2015, 09:41 AM
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I've been away from this thread for a little while. The reason...

Dane's PMCv2! I think I have watched more movies over the past 3 months, since getting it, than I did in the 6-12 months prior! The PMCv2 did wonders for my V10 - I am enjoying movies again and no longer find myself gravitating to the grey blacks and getting frustrated. I'm sorry to hear that sales have slowed down. If I had more Panny's I would buy one for each set. If anyone is on the fence, buy one now! The $60 spent is peanuts compared to what I was about to spend on a new TV...

Thanks Dane!
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post #11650 of 11670 Old 06-08-2015, 12:47 PM
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I just placed an order for the PMCv2! Wow, I was super surprised to see that the community came up with a fix, and a product! Very impressed. I had really given up hope and actually came back to this forum to start my research on a new TV. I'm really looking forward to resetting my 58" V10 back to 0 hours. I'll make sure I take before and after photos and post them here.
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post #11651 of 11670 Old 06-10-2015, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcroadking View Post
This past Sunday I had a touch-up calibration done on both my Panasonic V-50 and V-10. The calibrator asked what had I done to the V-10 as my black levels were as good as it was the first time he calibrated my set at the 200 hrs. mark. I explained it to him that I purchased and installed a PMCv1. I introduced him to this site and he was going to pass it on to some of his customers as he thought that the improvement was simply amazing.
Great work Dane
I'd love to get in touch with them if you wanted to PM or email me their contact information..

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Originally Posted by eaayoung View Post
Orders for Dane may pickup.
Here's hoping-- I actually shipped five in the the last three days, and I think zero in the entire previous week.. so maybe you're right.

As with most products, I think marketing is a necessary evil, but I wouldn't even know the first place to start, and even if I did, I highly doubt I could afford advertising costs. As I understand it from talking with people casually over the years, marketing is some of their highest expense.

I've really been blessed to have so many people purchase strictly from word-of-mouth, and this forum (and several others overseas that I've stumbled across).. David K. at CNET was "this close" to reviewing it but lost access to the panels previously tested (I can't blame them, CNET reviews TONS of electronics) so I lost out on that opportunity. I may have only built 250 PMCv2's instead of 500 if I knew that was going to fall through. Live and learn though!

I just this week started transitioning to a new e-commerce tool for the website that will give me some opportunities to better setup the discount program for PMCv2 purchases for un-tested models. I needed a better way than just email to coordinate customers taking advantage of the discount. It will be a few more days yet before I have it up-and-running, but hopefully by next week sometime I'll roll it out and send out another email update. The new e-commerce tool also allows me to automatically add customers to the email newsletter -- a feature not offered by the 'free' e-commerce tool that I have been using up-to-now.

I also have plans for an upcoming BlackHat+Defcon sale..

cheers,
..dane
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post #11652 of 11670 Old 06-13-2015, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by shubjero View Post
I just placed an order for the PMCv2! Wow, I was super surprised to see that the community came up with a fix, and a product! Very impressed. I had really given up hope and actually came back to this forum to start my research on a new TV. I'm really looking forward to resetting my 58" V10 back to 0 hours. I'll make sure I take before and after photos and post them here.
The results will surprise you. I was shocked by the difference. But my 54V10 had 10K hours on it.
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post #11653 of 11670 Old 06-17-2015, 08:22 AM
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NOTHING! Well, no more than domestic, anyway. We had a test case shipped a few months back and everything went very smoothly.. Except it took about four weeks to arrive. No import charges, no additional shipping or handling fees. Canada is included in the standard "domestic" purchase category. Yay!
Just to let you know that I ended up ordering one of these and it only took 9 days to get to Canada.. thanks Dane!

Mark
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post #11654 of 11670 Old 06-17-2015, 09:45 AM
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Just to let you know that I ended up ordering one of these and it only took 9 days to get to Canada.. thanks Dane!
Awesome! Thanks for the update, Mark. I am so glad it arrived much quicker than the previous attempt. The earlier one must have missed that left turn at Albuquerque..

cheers,
..dane
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post #11655 of 11670 Old 06-18-2015, 07:53 AM
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Mine came in 9 days too (Toronto)! Hooked it up last night, followed the instructions and proceeded to enjoy the better PQ. Thanks audiodane & community for all your hard work!
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post #11656 of 11670 Old 06-18-2015, 08:31 AM
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Mine performed another reset night before last. It never ceases to amaze me just how much the PQ improves after each reset.

Far and away the best $ I've ever spent on any A-V product. VERY well done, Dane -thanks again!
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post #11657 of 11670 Old 06-18-2015, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWells55 View Post
Any feedback from people who have reset units with a lot of hours on them and then put many more hours on? Since these rising blacks were by design, I imagine there has to be some sort of impact on the set by reverting to the original levels.

I ask because I just picked up a used P50G10 built in April 2009. Entering the service menu shows a whopping 7,211 hours of usage and 4120 on/off cycles.

As you'd expect, the blacks are shot accordingly. As much as I'd love to revert the set to new, I'm a little hesitant to do so given the age and heavy usage of the panel.

Perhaps I'd be better off going the homebrew route and editing the EEPROM to something like 500 hours of usage (so after the first black rise step) rather than going all the way to 0?
Eight months back when I installed my PMCv1 (c), my 65V10 panel menu indicated 22,547 hours and 6365 power cycles. Currently my set's hours are approaching 25,000 hours along with close to 7,000 power cycles, and 16 or 17 PMCv1 (c) automatic resets. Couldn't be happier!

Hope this helps!
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post #11658 of 11670 Old 06-23-2015, 11:46 AM
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May I ask what purpose the rising black serves? And what harm the PMC could do by reversing the process.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #11659 of 11670 Old 06-23-2015, 05:21 PM
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May I ask what purpose the rising black serves? And what harm the PMC could do by reversing the process.
Based on the complete lack of any reports of detrimental effects to date, I would say nothing. Indeed, this simply seems to bolster the theory that it was just an engineering screw-up, and the whole “rising black levels adds further life to the panel” line from Panasonic was just so much damage control. Never mind the fact that a 65V10 with well over 20k hours would show something (pixel mis-firings, etc), and yet…. Nothing. I am so glad I kept looking into this thread, because otherwise I would never have known that a solution (and an elegant one at that) was found. I will eventually upgrade, but for now I am happy with the original black levels (MORE than happy!)
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post #11660 of 11670 Old 06-23-2015, 09:03 PM
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...I will eventually upgrade, but for now I am happy with the original black levels (MORE than happy!)
At this point, other than expensive OLED, is there any really serious competition to our old plasmas when you consider motion blur, viewing angle, black level, etc? Not trying to derail the thread but I'm not jumping off until there is something significantly better at a reasonable price. When I see what all of my friends and relatives are watching, it makes me want to keep my old pannys forever! Thanks to Dane, I may do just that.
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post #11661 of 11670 Old 06-24-2015, 05:41 AM
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At this point, other than expensive OLED, is there any really serious competition to our old plasmas when you consider motion blur, viewing angle, black level, etc? Not trying to derail the thread but I'm not jumping off until there is something significantly better at a reasonable price. When I see what all of my friends and relatives are watching, it makes me want to keep my old pannys forever! Thanks to Dane, I may do just that.
I completely agree! I am waiting for technology to advance to the point where all of the benefits of plasma you mentioned and those of LED (no burn-in) come to fruition. Even the best OLED is still subject to burn-in (moreso than my panny AFAIK). Until then, you can have my plasma when you pry it... oh, you know...

Granted, that might be a good while, which is fine for me, as I have no intention of jumping on the 4k train at this point. What Dane's device has done (in my case) is completely subdue the upgrade bug (now if I can only find a way to do that with everything else HT...)
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post #11662 of 11670 Old 06-24-2015, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by audiodane View Post
I am wondering if the market is saturated.. I have plenty of these things left, only shipping a few per week at this point.. Maybe I built way too many the second time around..
Does everyone who wants one, have one, at this point?
Maybe I can find something else to do with them?
..dane
I'm on AVS a lot and just now saw this thread still has activity so a lot of people just don't know about the fix. I have a 42S1 that looks like a low budget LCD when it comes to black levels now so you can bet on me placing an order! I will be sure to take some before and after pictures that you can use for your website.

Good luck and thanks for the hard work and putting it in an idiot proof and reasonably priced package. Sometimes it takes a little bit of time to get the word out.

Edit: Ordered!
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post #11663 of 11670 Old 06-24-2015, 05:05 PM
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May I ask what purpose the rising black serves? And what harm the PMC could do by reversing the process.
For a technical explanation, see here.

Larry
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post #11664 of 11670 Old 06-24-2015, 05:59 PM
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For a technical explanation, see here.
I remember reading all of the technical speculation back then (and getting more and more depressed with each new theory). I can honestly say that I have had the PMC installed since it first became available, and have observed none of the effects described (no misfiring pixels here!). In fact, my picture has not been this good since I first bought the set.... It looks to me as if Panasonic went to more trouble and cost in damage control than if they had simply fessed up in the first place....
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post #11665 of 11670 Old 06-24-2015, 07:43 PM
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I'm sorry that I presented some technical information. I have been out of touch with reality and learned only a short while ago that engineering/scientific material is nothing more than speculation and opinion.

Thanks, Dane. Fantastic job.

Goodbye, thread.

Larry
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post #11666 of 11670 Old 06-24-2015, 07:54 PM
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I'm sorry that I presented some technical information. I have been out of touch with reality and learned only a short while ago that engineering/scientific material is nothing more than speculation and opinion.

Thanks, Dane. Fantastic job.

Goodbye, thread.

Larry
Larry,

I did not mean to imply that engineering or scientific material is nothing more than speculation or opinion (as you put it). If I came across that way, it was not intentional. I merely stated that I have not observed any detrimental effects, nor am I aware of anyone who has. Does that mean that these things will never happen? Of course not. Maybe they will, but if a Panny with well over 20k hours shows no signs of it, I am willing to bet it won't happen for a long while. As with any science, if theoretical predictions do not match empirical observation, the theoretical side may need to be revisited/revised. In any case, I meant no disrespect, my friend.

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post #11667 of 11670 Old Yesterday, 08:44 AM
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It looks to me as if Panasonic went to more trouble and cost in damage control than if they had simply fessed up in the first place....
I too was watching and reading weekly to see what new information popped up.. To your point about damage control, large companies have loads of lawyers that are actually paid to do one job-- protect the company. Now we as customers may not always enjoy how they do their job, or what they say, but they're doing their job. If Panasonic admitted to a design error then warranty issues could come into play (if within the window of warranty) and cost lots of money. Other scenarios are also possible..

(more after another quote)

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I'm sorry that I presented some technical information. I have been out of touch with reality and learned only a short while ago that engineering/scientific material is nothing more than speculation and opinion.
Larry, please don't go! I greatly appreciate your activity in every thread in which I find your name (which seems like a LOT of them, by the way, whew!).

As as engineer myself (by upbringing, education, and profession), I can admit that sometimes even the best engineers make mistakes. I've made them myself (no I'm not putting myself in the category of "the best engineers").

You (not you Larry, but "the reader") better believe that it is much easier for an engineer to admit making a mistake than a large multinational corporation. Consider that these Plasma TV's were shipped to at least a dozen different countries who all have their own set of legal requirements and other laws, it's not surprising that unless it caused a safety concern or an unacceptably high failure rate, then there is never going to be much that comes out of corporate. It takes an anonymous insider to 'leak' information in a hidden way, and even then they would be breaking so many company policies that while beneficial to the customer, may be very dishonorable considering the company heritage (Japanese).

As a product architect who also works in areas of research at times, I will quote a little piece of paper that I have taped above my office door:

"If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called 'research,' would it?"
- Albert Einstein

There are several realities here that must be acknowledged:
  • Design mistakes happen
  • Design mistakes do not necessarily legally trigger warranty issues even though it may upset some customers
  • The percentage of customers affected by a design mistake make not justify the cost of repair, that couldn't otherwise be fixed in a next generation model (e.g. happy customers keep their current product and remain happy; unhappy customers complain but see a new version come out and become happy with the new version). (NOTE: although it did take several generations to resolve the issues, there is no one who would argue that a 2009 panny is better than the VT60 panny when it comes to black levels.)
Now those are all design MISTAKES. The other reality is that sometimes what hits the production floor is different than the laboratory research. Take re-writeable CD's for example. Original laboratory research indicated that a re-writeable CD would have a shelf life of some crazy high number of years (I can't remember now what it was.. 25? 50?), yet today when pressed to find documentation on a pack of CDR's from <bigboxretailernamehere>, if you can find it at all, they claim less than 5 years, sometimes far less. What happened? Pricing pressures caused them to adjust the original laboratory design to enable production at higher volumes and lower cost. Well those design changes affect the shelf life.


Bringing that back around to TVs, it is not only possible, but I dare say probable, that the time between the panel research (firing voltages, etc) and the product manufacturing, things changed. Maybe THIS time, instead of changing for the worse (as normally causes upset customers), manufacturing tolerances and processes IMPROVED, thus making the panels MORE reliable than before, and reducing the need for the adjustment in voltage levels. It would be a much different scenario entirely if the panels got worse with higher production volume and the age compensation circuitry was insufficient and people started having mis-fires. As it is, however, I think the fact that we can use this reset workaround to restore our original black levels WITHOUT any ill side effects, IMO, is a HUGE success.


Panasonic may or may not ever say anything more on the matter. No worries. Until the FIRST panny owner comes and starts talking about mis-firing pixels, we're golden.. And even then, it will be really interesting to see what happens. Maybe the PMCv2 just gets updated to reset not to zero but the first 'adjustment age' or something..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post
...if a Panny with well over 20k hours shows no signs of it, I am willing to bet it won't happen for a long while.
And like with digital television (where you never know just how close you are to being "too far" from the tower for over-the-air reception until the image is too choppy to watch), we may never know "how close/far" we are from that cliff until it happens. It could be 21k-hrs that exhibits the problem for that set, or it could be 121k-hrs. Another set it might be 53k-hrs or 97k-hrs. Until the first unit exhibits the problem, we have no clue. And even then, it takes two points to make a line, three to make a curve, and over a dozen to create a population sufficient to attempt understand the situation. (That's why the Gx2x and Vx2x models are such a conundrum, too.)

cheers,
..dane
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Any way to reset the levels on a TX-P50G20B?
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Panasonic may or may not ever say anything more on the matter.
Their statements at the time that the rising blacks was normal and planned was enough. Seriously? Absolute rubbish BS on Panasonic's part.

And LarryinRI, don't go. Some of us non-engineer types need your explanations. You're a great contributor to this forum.
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Originally Posted by Dick Emery View Post
Any way to reset the levels on a TX-P50G20B?
Sorry, even now I'm not an expert on model numbers -- what country code is "B?"

As far as data gathered from the PMCv1/v2 feedback, as well as communications with mironto, in general, the Gx2x models do not respond to the currently known black level reset mechanism. With that said, however, a European GT210E seems to respond well to the reset mechanism. It is unclear exactly why there are differences in the Gx2x and Vx2x series compared to other models.

If you're interested a PMCv2 and since your particular variant has not been tested, shoot me an email at the website and let's see what we can work out..

cheers,
..dane
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