Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

Rpresner, this is like 8th times in two days that you said your set is not suffering from the black level problem.

actually it was 3 times, and everytime is was in response to something else.

ps. do you really have a point in mentioning that or is your life that boring. just wondering.

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post #1172 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 01:53 PM
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With Samsung buzzing and Panasonic loosing their black levels, I just can't make up my buying decision. G10 or B860? I had Samsung B750 before and now definitely set for a plasma. Just can't pick one after reading all this.
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post #1173 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 02:10 PM
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Even when the Panasonic blacks rise they are often still better than the Sammy Plasma sets. (each unit has different black levels ranging from .012 to .022 based on all I have read on them no unit is the same) The Panasonic's start at .08 and increase from there to roughly .018 at most if memory serves.

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post #1174 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpresner View Post

actually it was 3 times, and everytime is was in response to something else.

ps. do you really have a point in mentioning that or is your life that boring. just wondering.

My mistake -- It's actually more like 10 or 11 times since two days ago. For someone who claims to have no problem with the black level, you seem to spend awful lot of time here. I just found it interesting.
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post #1175 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 02:54 PM
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That is the question. If the problem is time sensitive and not enough time has elapsed since these models came out, the panny could keep getting higher and higher black levels. I would still consider buying the set if panny would announce a possible fix. Is there a fix on the horizon?

P.S. Even with the current black level doubling, these are still better than the Samsung black levels. Is that an accurate statment?
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post #1176 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

From past experience, the new models will priced very close to the previous model, maybe a bit lower, but include NEW & IMPROVED (?) features. After several months you can expect these prices to reduce from 10% to 20%.

To clarify, that will almost surely be true, as long as we are comparing MSRP of each TV when each was released. The closer we get to the new TVs' releases, the more the older ones are reduced, thus creating a greater price disparity. Just an FYI, for those reading that haven't been in the game that long.
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post #1177 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

My mistake -- It's actually more like 10 or 11 times since two days ago. For someone who claims to have no problem with the black level, you seem to spend awful lot of time here. I just found it interesting.

mmoh00, this is hardly contributing to the thread.

I dont have this issue either, yet I watch this thread because it pertains to my tv. I just want to stay informed and I would assume Rpresner does too.

If my G10 did started experiencing rising blacks I'd want to already know all about it and not have to read through this big thread all at once to get all the known info. If anything this should be encouraged rather than frowned upon as no one likes a new guy walking into a long thread asking to be briefed on everything that's already been discussed.

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post #1178 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mmoh00 View Post

My mistake -- It's actually more like 10 or 11 times since two days ago. For someone who claims to have no problem with the black level, you seem to spend awful lot of time here. I just found it interesting.

I don't even have this display. I have a Kuro, which actually I personally consider a much better display. I have friends with Panasonics though and therefore I check up on this (as well as so I know in case anyone asks me about buying advice).
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post #1179 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

mmoh00, this is hardly contributing to the thread.

I dont have this issue either, yet I watch this thread because it pertains to my tv. I just want to stay informed and I would assume Rpresner does too.

If my G10 did started experiencing rising blacks I'd want to already know all about it and not have to read through this big thread all at once to get all the known info. If anything this should be encouraged rather than frowned upon as no one likes a new guy walking into a long thread asking to be briefed on everything that's already been discussed.

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Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

I don't even have this display. I have a Kuro, which actually I personally consider a much better display. I have friends with Panasonics though and therefore I check up on this (as well as so I know in case anyone asks me about buying advice).

LOL. I have no idea where you guys are coming from. I think you misread my point. I was just pointing out that Rpresner is not adding anything new with his "no problem with my v10" comments. He made basically the same comment 11 times since 2 days ago after things started to get a little hot here after D-nice's post! If he has any new info to share, great! If anyone has a question or just want to lurk around, that's great too! Why am I making a fuss out of Rpresner's repetitive comments? If you have read my post couple days ago, you would understand. LOL. Anyway, I think I made my point and don't want to clutter the thread with this. Logging off for tonight. Happy new year to all.
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post #1180 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

If he's smart and values his job I suggest he does not respond to your email. Releasing internal memos or information is a quick way to get terminated.

Now if you guys were having a beer............

This is so true.............email is "Not" your friend. Never ever put it in writing.
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post #1181 of 11205 Old 12-31-2009, 06:29 PM
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How about writing cnet as they have a vast audience.
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post #1182 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

How about writing cnet as they have a vast audience.

I contact HDGuru after their V10 review where they compared its blacks to G10 and they found V10 has way better blacks. I suggested if their G10 may have "inflated blacks" problem and suggesting to measure it if thats the case.
Should be easy as they seemed to have that G10 still.
I haven't heard anything from them.
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post #1183 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 08:03 AM
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No trying to stir the pot, but, to all those who are contemplating the purchase of a v10 panny, keep in mind that the folks who post here are NOT representative of the mainstream TV viewers, and, unless you have an incredible eye for detail, or are an engineer who cant sleep if something is out of spec, chances are you will abosolutely LOVE this TV..
I got mine a couple of days ago, and I must say it blows away every other tv I have ever had; including my sony sxrd, my pioneer elite, my samsung lcds. and everthing else i am aware of.
I find it amusing how people can say the Kuro just "blows away" this tv; is that based on you owning BOTH of these Tv's, and having them set up in YOUR HOUSE, or, is it from your observation in a retail store, which is absolutely the WORST POSSIBLE place to compare 2 tv's, side by side..signal loss, ambient lighting, voltage variations, and everything else that occurs in a retail store will render any meaningful comparison impossible..
And, if you pay attention to the doom and gloom that people are espousing on this board about this tv, you will be even more confused.
Buy this tv, get the extended warranty, if you are planning on keeping it more than a year, and sit back and be prepared to be blown away...If your set develops problems, just like EVERY OTHER TV MAY OR MAY NOT, have it serviced..thats what warranties are for!
and, I do not work for any consumer electronics company at this point in my life. I am just a realist, who knows that EVERYTHING electronic will have its quirks and oddities, so if you cant live with that, go outside, and look at nature and the sky all day, since that is closest thing to a "perfect picture" you will ever see!
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post #1184 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wase4711 View Post

No trying to stir the pot, but, to all those who are contemplating the purchase of a v10 panny, keep in mind that the folks who post here are NOT representative of the mainstream TV viewers, and, unless you have an incredible eye for detail, or are an engineer who cant sleep if something is out of spec, chances are you will abosolutely LOVE this TV..
I got mine a couple of days ago, and I must say it blows away every other tv I have ever had; including my sony sxrd, my pioneer elite, my samsung lcds. and everthing else i am aware of.
I find it amusing how people can say the Kuro just "blows away" this tv; is that based on you owning BOTH of these Tv's, and having them set up in YOUR HOUSE, or, is it from your observation in a retail store, which is absolutely the WORST POSSIBLE place to compare 2 tv's, side by side..signal loss, ambient lighting, voltage variations, and everything else that occurs in a retail store will render any meaningful comparison impossible..
And, if you pay attention to the doom and gloom that people are espousing on this board about this tv, you will be even more confused.
Buy this tv, get the extended warranty, if you are planning on keeping it more than a year, and sit back and be prepared to be blown away...If your set develops problems, just like EVERY OTHER TV MAY OR MAY NOT, have it serviced..thats what warranties are for!
and, I do not work for any consumer electronics company at this point in my life. I am just a realist, who knows that EVERYTHING electronic will have its quirks and oddities, so if you cant live with that, go outside, and look at nature and the sky all day, since that is closest thing to a "perfect picture" you will ever see!

What Elite did you have? This is encouraging

bob
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post #1185 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 08:41 AM
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I had a pro 111fd..great picture, but we have a large family room.....

I wanted something bigger, so I had stepped up to the sony sxrd 70 incher..
got tired of that picture, and when I saw a 65v10, and read the reviews, I went for it, and we just love this set, so far!
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post #1186 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wase4711 View Post

I find it amusing how people can say the Kuro just "blows away" this tv; is that based on you owning BOTH of these Tv's, and having them set up in YOUR HOUSE, or, is it from your observation in a retail store, which is absolutely the WORST POSSIBLE place to compare 2 tv's, side by side..signal loss, ambient lighting, voltage variations, and everything else that occurs in a retail store will render any meaningful comparison impossible..

For those that read AVS avidly, like myself, though it is a great technical resource, there are too many people who only describe differences as either 'great' or 'small' (or similar words). They seem to lack the will or vocabulary to estimate more gradations of difference, like 'moderate', 'moderately great', and 'moderately small'; added together with 'great', and 'small', they would offer five points of gradation.
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post #1187 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by L7R View Post

I contact HDGuru after their V10 review where they compared its blacks to G10 and they found V10 has way better blacks. I suggested if their G10 may have "inflated blacks" problem and suggesting to measure it if thats the case.
Should be easy as they seemed to have that G10 still.
I haven't heard anything from them.

Call me a skeptic ... but I'm not buying that the V,G, or S g12 differ at all in blacks ... same physical panel ... maybe reviewers get specially tweaked or "best of the bunch" panels selected especially for review sampling.

jls.
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post #1188 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Call me a skeptic ... but I'm not buying that the V,G, or S g12 differ at all in blacks ... same physical panel ... maybe reviewers get specially tweaked or "best of the bunch" panels selected especially for review sampling.

jls.

Why not? You can make the argument then that all their models are the same. Why then is there a noticeable visual difference (not to mention a huge price difference) between the top and low end models? Clearly the higher end models have better processing and color camuts...why would black level be the only thing not affected?

LCD is the MP3 of the TV world
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post #1189 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Call me a skeptic ... but I'm not buying that the V,G, or S g12 differ at all in blacks ... same physical panel ... maybe reviewers get specially tweaked or "best of the bunch" panels selected especially for review sampling.

jls.

the g and v series have more settings available and i'm sure better processing. s and below i can't really comment on, as i haven't compared anything below the s series. i'm sure a calibrator would have a better answer to the comparison between the g and v series.
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post #1190 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by robi1138 View Post

Why not? You can make the argument then that all their models are the same. Why then is there a noticeable visual difference (not to mention a huge price difference) between the top and low end models? Clearly the higher end models have better processing and color camuts...why would black level be the only thing not affected?

I said I was skeptical only ... they could be different ... but again, I would not expect the v,g,s panels to differ in their ability of MLL ... processing and color aside which I expect to be different.

Just my 02.
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post #1191 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

I said I was skeptical only ... they could be different ... but again, I would not expect the v,g,s panels to differ in their ability of MLL ... processing and color aside which I expect to be different.

Just my 02.

I agree that they could be the same but so many here (not you) insist they are the same. I just find it strange that this one aspect would be the same while everything else is different. It's also possible that they are factory-set at different levels. This would further the case that all the models are essentially the same but only the higher end ones are "allowed" to perform a certain way.

LCD is the MP3 of the TV world
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post #1192 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wase4711 View Post

No trying to stir the pot, but, to all those who are contemplating the purchase of a v10 panny, keep in mind that the folks who post here are NOT representative of the mainstream TV viewers, and, unless you have an incredible eye for detail, or are an engineer who cant sleep if something is out of spec, chances are you will absolutely LOVE this TV..
I got mine a couple of days ago, and I must say it blows away every other tv I have ever had; including my sony sxrd, my pioneer elite, my samsung lcds. and everything else i am aware of.
I find it amusing how people can say the Kuro just "blows away" this tv; is that based on you owning BOTH of these Tv's, and having them set up in YOUR HOUSE, or, is it from your observation in a retail store, which is absolutely the WORST POSSIBLE place to compare 2 tv's, side by side..signal loss, ambient lighting, voltage variations, and everything else that occurs in a retail store will render any meaningful comparison impossible..
And, if you pay attention to the doom and gloom that people are espousing on this board about this tv, you will be even more confused.
Buy this tv, get the extended warranty, if you are planning on keeping it more than a year, and sit back and be prepared to be blown away...If your set develops problems, just like EVERY OTHER TV MAY OR MAY NOT, have it serviced..thats what warranties are for!
and, I do not work for any consumer electronics company at this point in my life. I am just a realist, who knows that EVERYTHING electronic will have its quirks and oddities, so if you cant live with that, go outside, and look at nature and the sky all day, since that is closest thing to a "perfect picture" you will ever see!


Amen!

Loving the Blu-Revolution
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post #1193 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 04:44 PM
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Concerning the HDGuru review, Michael Fremer appears to have had the TC-P50G10 for over three months when he compared its black levels to that of a brand new TC-P54V10. Compared to the G10, he thought the V10's blacks were "about one half as dark." In other words the three month old G10's black level seemed to be double that of the new V10, which should sound familiar to anyone following this thread.

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Now I still haven't found the way to bring the blacks back to where they started, but I provide you with the info you need to prevent your S1, S10, GW10, G10, G15 and V10 to ever be plagued with the black level bug - that's for the G12 Plasmas that haven't reached the magical border yet.

One warning: The following procedure has been tested with several german GW10 and S10 so far! The specific way could be different to US-Models, but since the EEPROM of all G12-models is very close to one another, I doubt it.

Okay, we have to go into the servicemenu. Once you are there, got to the page with the SRV-Tool. Click "Ok" and the SRV-Tool will open.

Since you are users of this thread, you will probably know this SRV-Tool already.

If you went with the cursor down, mark the last field on the right hand and press the Mute-Button for more then five seconds, your amount of hours, that the display was used will be displayed along with the number of times, you powered it on.

Okay, what we do now ist to mark the first field from above on the right hand instead. Again hold down the Mute-Button for more then 5 seconds. An option called "Memory Editor" appears.

You click "Ok" aka the actionbutton at your remotecontrol and voila, here is the heart of your TV, the EEPROM.

"EEPROM Peaks" is our next station. Mark it with the cursor and press "OK". You can navigate with the cursorbuttons of your remotecontrol and move with the channelcontrol up and down through the bunch of pages.

The lines of interest, which contain the internal clock are 6C8 and 6D0!

They can look like the following for example:

6C8: FF FF FF 52 00 00 1E 29
6D0: 02 00 00 00 FF FF 00 00

The fourth hexadecimal letter of line 6C8 represents the number of times, your TV were powered on. 52 means 82 times!

The seventh letter of line 6C8 are the minutes and the last letter same line represents the hours the display has been in use. 1E is 30 Minutes and 29 is 41 hours.

The first letter of line 6D0 makes the hours complete. In our case, it says "02", which means, the mark of 255 hours has been exceeded two times.

This means 256 hours * 2 + 41hours + 30 Minutes-> This panel has been used for 553 hours and 30 minutes!

What we do now? We mark all four letters each and reset them with our volumecontrol to zero! Save each entry to the EEPROM with the Action-Button (aka "OK") on your remote control.

After your changes, press "Exit" two times. You are back in the SRV-Tool. Now press the "Exit"-Button for more then 10 seconds and your TV will restart.

You now have a TV, that has been powered on only one time and has zero hours of use on its shoulders.

Repeat this regulary and the Black level Bug will never touch you.

Another possibility is to set the clock of a new G12 plasma to let's say four thousand hours, since the three voltagebumpmarks should never kick in. This would spare you the need to reset the clock again and again.
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post #1195 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2 View Post

Concerning the HDGuru review, Michael Fremer appears to have had the TC-P50G10 for over three months when he compared its black levels to that of a brand new TC-P54V10. Compared to the G10, he thought the V10's blacks were "about one half as dark." In other words the three month old G10's black level seemed to be double that of the new V10, which should sound familiar to anyone following this thread.


That's it!? That super slight difference is what everyone is going crying over?
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post #1196 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 05:54 PM
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That's it!? That super slight difference is what everyone is going crying over?

Are you kidding? First of, set the brightness of your PC-Display correct and second, look ath the picture in the startpost!

Also, when the black level doubles, your contrast is going down from above 3000:1 to just 2000:1!!!

You have to be blind to not see the difference in imagequality.

P.S.: Panasonic must love the kind of customers that are like you!
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post #1197 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 06:02 PM
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I'm just going by that pic just posted, and it looks very slight to me. Also, even when the brightness doubles, it's still better than 95% of the tvs out there from what I've heard.
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post #1198 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

Now I still haven't found the way to bring the blacks back to where they started, but I provide you with the info you need to prevent your S1, S10, GW10, G10, G15 and V10 to ever be plagued with the black level bug - that's for the G12 Plasmas that haven't reached the magical border yet.

...

Another possibility is to set the clock of a new G12 plasma to let's say four thousand hours, since the three voltagebumsmarks should never kick in. This would spear you the need to reset the clock again and again.
....

Why do you say it doesn't bring back the good black? I am aware D-Nice has said that once the black level gets worse, you can't bring it back. Are you just going by his statement or some other knowledge? Just curious.

On more general note, isn't it true that the "initializing voltage" is raised by FW for a particular performance reason and the black problem is just an unintended byproduct? If we somehow fool the FW not to raise this voltage at all, wouldn't it cause other performance problems later on?

At the minimum, I think some people will make use of this clock-reset method if they decide to sell their tvs on craigslist.
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post #1199 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

Are you kidding? First of, set the brightness of your PC-Display correct and second, look ath the picture in the startpost!

Also, when the black level doubles, your contrast is going down from above 3000:1 to just 2000:1!!!

You have to be blind to not see the difference in imagequality.

P.S.: Panasonic must love the kind of customers that are like you!


Yeah, that was pretty obvious difference to me. But the inexpensive TN panel computer LCDs these days can give very false looks depending on the view angle.
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post #1200 of 11205 Old 01-01-2010, 06:09 PM
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Why does everyone recommend the Panny's if it's garbage like people in this thread are saying I wanted to get one but I don't know now. Then of course the Sammy's have blue levels instead of black levels. I might just have to get an LH90 or something, everything else has major issues.
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