Panasonic 11G/12G/13G black levels have seemingly doubled overnight? - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

We, all of us, should be so lucky.

Typical very good values for any plasma (Kuro excluded) would be 0.010 to 0.014 ftL.

Larry

OK. So I just measured my 42G15 for the first time with approximately 100 hours on it.

My "black" screen luminance: 0.012 ftL

From the start, the blacks have looked disappointingly grey to me in a dark room, during darkly lit scenes especially.

I have two questions: 1) If there are indeed G10/G15s out there with 0.008 ftL black luminance, does this mean that my screen has 50% brighter blacks than is actually possible with this set? (It sure FEELS like there is room for improvement.)

2) If my G15 does NOT suffer from the doubling/increasing black level issue, would my blacks theoretically get darker as the panel ages?

I guess I would also like to get someone else's thoughts regarding exchanging my set for a new one (I have 5 more days to decide). With a new set, is there a great variance in initial black level, from .008 ftL to .014 ftL? Did I get a brighter-black-than-usual G15? Or do I have -- as LarryInRI stated -- a G15 that falls right in the middle of what I should expect from a "very good" plasma?

Thanks for all of your help! (Including LarryInRI, who is a rock star on this site!)
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post #1262 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 11:35 AM
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I think I spoke too soon....

491 hours in on my 54G10 and my black levels have increased noticeably. It happened last night.

In all honesty, It doesn't really affect my viewing when I'm playing games, but when there are dark scenes in a movie, I feel like there is a dramatic difference from the extremely dark blacks before the change.

Before the change viewing a completely black screen at night with all the lights off almost made it look like the tv was off, now it's distinctly gray.

I don't know what the hell happened to cause it to just change like that.

It bothers me more because I've been visiting these forums and I know the issue exists. Perhaps if I didn't, I could be blissful in my ignorance.

I can still return/exchange it at Sears, but I don't know if I really want to. Yes, the black levels have increased, but the picture still looks great, especially in games. I can notice the difference in movies but I'm hoping I'll just get used to it.

From what I've read, it seems like Panasonic has no intention of fixing the problem. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow and see what they say.
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post #1263 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulber View Post

Isn't a top line LCD significantly more expensive than the G10 line, for example?

check out cnet
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post #1264 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

check out cnet

Your point?
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post #1265 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 02:21 PM
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my point is that you could buy a LED TV samsung with 1800-2000 bucks rather than taking advantage of the panasonics infinite blacks or the buzz buzz from samsung, IR and other features
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post #1266 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msalles View Post

My line 38 is
02 01 00 01 00 00 3C 04

This second 01 is a strange one. If I change it to 00 but later turn off and on the TV, it goes back to 01.

And your blacks didn't improve between on and off?
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post #1267 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 02:43 PM
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The tv probably only checks that stuff on start up. I'm guessing that when you turn it on, it checks the clock, sets that value, then determines the drive voltages based on the value.

Maybe it would do something if you reset the clock and set that number to 0?
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post #1268 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristian_ro View Post

my point is that you could buy a LED TV samsung with 1800-2000 bucks rather than taking advantage of the panasonics infinite blacks or the buzz buzz from samsung, IR and other features

I understand what you're trying to say but those are 50% more expensive than the TC-P50G10, for example. If this problem was overwhelmingly annoying I would pay that much more. What some people are trying to understand is beyond the technical issues, how much does this take away from the value of these plasma TVs.
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post #1269 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Orta, or anyone that has called Panasonic out for this problem How were you able to convince Panasonic to replace your panel. I have dealt with Panasonic before and they replaced my first G10 because it was a louder buzzer, but there is no doubt on my g10 that the black levels have raised alot. On a black screen it looks like a cheap lcd. It seems like messing with my contrast or brightness have little effect on the picture. I can leave my contrast on 64 and lower my brightness to 0 and the picture hardly changes. I didnt realize how bad it was until I moved my Panny in the basement and hooked up Call of Duty MW2 up. My new Bravia has much deeper black levels. I guess I will call Panasonic tonight, if that doesnt work I guess I will sell it on Craigs list for 600 bucks or so. Sad because my is 6 mos old.

Anyone have any insight. What I have noticed the most is that with great source (blue ray) my blacks look pretty good, but other hd stations at timesw look washed out. Also, my contrast and brightness adjustments in the user menu, dont appear to alter my picture a whole lot, I can drop my brightness to 0, with contrast around 55, and the picture still looks normal. Orta, does this sound like what you had with your g10 ?

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post #1270 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

And your blacks diddn't improve between on and off?

No they did not. But it's not the clock that is changing it. Since I started changing the EEPROM values you suggested, I have reset the clock so as to prevent the fact that it could rise again.
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post #1271 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pj325is View Post

The tv probably only checks that stuff on start up. I'm guessing that when you turn it on, it checks the clock, sets that value, then determines the drive voltages based on the value.

Maybe it would do something if you reset the clock and set that number to 0?

I thought of that too. My clock was already reset :-(
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post #1272 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulber View Post

I understand what you're trying to say but those are 50% more expensive than the TC-P50G10, for example. If this problem was overwhelmingly annoying I would pay that much more. What some people are trying to understand is beyond the technical issues, how much does this take away from the value of these plasma TVs.

While it wasn't really the case for me, I would hazard a guess that the purportedly strong CR/MLL was the major determinate in most people's decision--at least those savvy enough to visit a place like AVS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Anyone have any insight. What I have noticed the most is that with great source (blue ray) my blacks look pretty good, but other hd stations at timesw look washed out. Also, my contrast and brightness adjustments in the user menu, dont appear to alter my picture a whole lot, I can drop my brightness to 0, with contrast around 55, and the picture still looks normal. Orta, does this sound like what you had with your g10 ?

Tough to say. How good the blacks look is going to depend on how much contrast is in the scene and how high you have your peak white set. It's also very subjective obviously. The brightness setting doesn't do anything for this problem, there's no improvement dropping it down to 0. In general, decreasing the contrast will make this problem look worse while increasing will seem to improve it. Either case is just an illusion and function of our eyes though, the blacks aren't actually changing one way or the other (assuming the correct brightness setting).
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post #1273 of 11268 Old 01-03-2010, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Gil2K View Post

Gov,

Here in Brazilian Portuguese.

Here in English (Google Translated).

Thanks!

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post #1274 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 01:01 AM
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Panasonic Plasma Service Germany do know nothing about the blacklevel bug.

P.S.: Do your american S1-Model have fans or is it fanless?
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post #1275 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 02:07 AM
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So this is a bug that affects all 11/12G panasonic plasmas at some point but Panasonic doesn´t "know anything" about the bug? My 42G10E has about 350h on it and so far the black level is the same as when I bought it (I think).
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post #1276 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 05:28 AM
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Short question:
Could anyone of be so kind and post a chart or a picture of his or her G10-EEPROM-Peak values? That could help us german panasonic users to find differences between the german g10 und the us g10 and could also perhaps help us to unlock several features of our german S10 pdp. That would be very nice!
Regards Mike
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post #1277 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 05:53 AM
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How frequently does this happen with the V10 series? Is there a set # of hours where this happens for the V10s?

I just received my 3rd 58V10 model. My first model had stripped screws from the delivery guys and my second model had a buzzing defect.

I'm running the break-in DVD right now and have until the end of January to return the TV in case anything goes wrong. I won't be turning the TV off all month (should be at 600+ hours) to make sure everything works well. Any input would be great.
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post #1278 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 06:41 AM
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It appears my 42S1 has this issue, Went from a darker grey to a light grey.
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post #1279 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

It appears my 42S1 has this issue, Went from a darker grey to a light grey.

You have my deepest symphaty. Welcome to the club.

There should be my signature
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post #1280 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 06:48 AM
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I will go get more data, like hours, get some pictures and etc...

1) Model/Size of TV: Panasonic TC-P42S1
2) Date Manufactured: Sept 2009
3) Hours used on TV when the black elevation occurred: after 350 Hours
4) Were the Break-In slides used?: No
5) Did you enter the Service Menu?: Yes, to change offsets

Now for Pictures.

*i know the 12G don't have Kuro blacks but i'm sure its not suppose to be as bright as a 2006 Samsung LCD on all black image*
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post #1281 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 07:28 AM
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Has anyone had any luck with Panasonic on this issue. I can only imagine having a tech from a local repair shop come out to my house, to say your tv appears fine. But, I just cant fathom that my new Sony Bravia w5100 lcd has better contrast, and darker blacks, then my Panasonic G10. /with the superbowl coming up, I have been pondering selling my 50g10 on craigs list for around $800, and then snagging a new one, hoping it has the thx fixed.

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post #1282 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p4t1 View Post

So this is a bug that affects all 11/12G panasonic plasmas at some point but Panasonic doesn´t "know anything" about the bug? My 42G10E has about 350h on it and so far the black level is the same as when I bought it (I think).

it sounds like Panasonic does know something about this bug, they just haven't decided to fix it at this point.

Up until a week ago, I don't think very many people even contacted Panasonic about it. If they get more complaints, they're more likely to take this issue seriously.

Plus the fact that this thread is titled as a G10 issue whereas it appears to be a more widespread bug that affects the whole range of panels.

Perhaps a request should be made to get the topic title adjusted?
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post #1283 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 07:51 AM
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Yes please adjust the title...
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post #1284 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 08:23 AM
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Yes please adjust the title...

And change it to Black levels "halved" overnight. Double black level sounds like a good thing!


bob
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post #1285 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 08:36 AM
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Well, it happened to mine as well. I don't know the hour mark because I have never entered the service menu but it is an August 2009 build. I have my G10 in a theater room that has no windows and I always watch it with the lights turned off. Therefore, the change was dramatically noticeable. It is basically a night and day difference once it happens and anyone that watches this display in the dark will notice when it happens.

I tried the factory reset but that made no difference.

It is so bad that my wife even commented on it. We were watching Public Enemies on Blu-Ray and the dark scenes are almost unwatchable. She said "why is the tv glowing?" She is right, the panel now glows ridiculously.

In addition, I know that this has been mentioned before, but I can confirm that IR has become much more noticeable after the black level rise. I used to turn on my PS3 and immediately enter a game/bluray without seeing any IR. However, now when I turn on my PS3 and immediately enter a game/bluray, the PS3 menu is still visible on the screen even though it was only there for 30 seconds or so.

I took some pictures with my 12 megapixel camera and I wanted to throw up after looking at the pictures. I forgot my camera at home but I will post the pictures soon. This is my second Panasonic plasma but unless this problem gets fixed, it will be my last Panasonic display.
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post #1286 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 08:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speck9 View Post

it sounds like Panasonic does know something about this bug, they just haven't decided to fix it at this point.

Up until a week ago, I don't think very many people even contacted Panasonic about it. If they get more complaints, they're more likely to take this issue seriously.

Plus the fact that this thread is titled as a G10 issue whereas it appears to be a more widespread bug that affects the whole range of panels.

Perhaps a request should be made to get the topic title adjusted?

I remember a few years ago when Panasonic PDP's that were equipped w/a CableCARD would not pass digital audio out.

I took nearly (1) year for Panasonic to publish a firmware update to resolve the problem.

Good luck.
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post #1287 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 09:56 AM
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And change it to Black levels "halved" overnight. Double black level sounds like a good thing!

Sorry but I don't agree. It is measurable in numbers, and a higher number means a less black display.
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post #1288 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 10:08 AM
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I just picked up a 50g10, Nov build, and it's been good thus far, but it definitely will not be when I get hit with the black level bug. One observation I noticed that the black levels in Vivid are much better than any other mode, is this the case with all g10's?

I'm debating whether to return the set or keep it, but I hope all of those who have the problem all complain to panasonic CSR, and post reviews on amazon.

90hrs, black levels good, but i can tell the vivid mode black levels are better than all other modes.

-S
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post #1289 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 10:25 AM
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I was within days of purchasing a 50G10 but knowing of this issue, I'll wait for a fix or an updated model. I considered the Samsung 50b650, too, but I prefer the Panasonic image and was scared off by quality issues that I experienced with Samsung gear over the years. Looks like my nine year old CRT RPTV is going to get a bit more use. While its picture is a bit softer than modern fixed-pixel displays, its blacks and color accuracy can't be beaten.
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post #1290 of 11268 Old 01-04-2010, 11:05 AM
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The technician came and replaced the A-board this morning. Given that it's still daytime and I have very little light control in my living room I cannot say if it fixed the black level issue. I will be testing it tonight and taking pictures to compare directly with the ones from before the technician came. (I took another round last night) I will post back later with my results.

One thing that is abundantly clear is that this fixed the THX yellow/green cast issue. In fact, THX looks AMAZING now! Sure it's still dim, but I could actually see myself using this in a darkened environment or for high-contrast games. I ran some test patterns and the color looks damn near-perfect. It's more accurate than the already good Custom and Game modes by a mile. I wasn't getting my hopes up that this would ever be fixed, but it's a welcome bonus!
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